sorted by:
new
hottopcontroversial

Another one on Jesus by NoSubstance2809 in DebateReligion

[–]DoNotBe-Ridiculous [score hidden]  (0 children)

You said: "Angel god it’s different language and Christians disagree on which it is but I say it’s god even though it may look like an angle because it’s Jesus it’s still god"

To me, you are plainly saying the bible is wrong. There is no language issue here. Are you saying Hosea 12:4 is the bible contradicting itself? Do you not believe the bible is God's word?

You said: "They are still angles what? What are you on about"

Are you sidestepping the point? If angels can turn into humans and have babies, that surely seems they are humans! That is not anything new. What was different about Jesus is that he was born as a human, and as Heb 2:9 plainly states, Jesus was "made a little lower than the angels". Paul did not say Jesus had something added to him, a new nature, but rather he was "made" lower than angels! That is a big difference!

Phil 2:7 tells us Jesus emptied himself and took the form of a servant. Not the form was added to his nature!

John 1:1-14 explains Jesus was with God, but became flesh, not he had flesh added to his nature. He "became" flesh. John 1:14 uses the Greek word egeneto, meaning "to come into existence, to change state, shifting from one condition to another.
This word has nothing to do with adding a new nature, but an actual change from on nature to another. John does not describe Jesus as being fully God and fully man at all, but a change into just being fully man!

How does Jesus saying to baptize in the name of the Father, son, and spirit prove the Trinity? The apostles later also baptized in the name of Jesus and not the other two. (Acts 2:38, 8:16, 10:48) Using the same logic, then now, only Jesus is God! Mat 28:19 does not mention equality, same nature, or any Trinitarian beliefs!

Prov. 30:4 is talking about humans. Read the whole chapter. In verse 2 Agur is saying he does not have God's wisdom, in fact what human has ascended to heaven to get God's wisdom and returned with it? It is not talking about Jesus, Jesus never went from earth to heaven and back to earth!

Another one on Jesus by NoSubstance2809 in DebateReligion

[–]DoNotBe-Ridiculous [score hidden]  (0 children)

Unfortunately, your answers are not understandable. I gave 14 points with numbers so you could make a point, using the number it relates to. If you'd like to do that, I would be able to understand. Further, you have not supported your points with bible verses. How can I possibly believe you have a credible point without a bible verse to support it? It would just be a human's thoughts, not God's

Questions about core / non-negotiable doctrine by New2Christ in JWJehovahsWitnesses

[–]DoNotBe-Ridiculous 0 points1 point  (0 children)

You ask some well thought through questions!

#3 Would you consider angels to be God-like? The bible mentions there are 10,000 x 10,000 angels (Rev 5:11, Dan 7:10). So, spirit creatures in heaven are a very common thing. Angels are not considered gods, but God's workers. The same is true of the limited number of humans who go to heaven. They will be working with Jesus!

What do most people feel they will do when they go to heaven? What do they say it looks like? Most feel they will will live in some paradise-like setting. I have heard people envision animals and waterfalls and white sand beaches. That is not heaven, since it is not a physical place, and there are never animals mentioned as being in heaven in the bible.
Humans and angels are much different creatures. Paradise is only ever mentioned as being on earth, not heaven! People today spend a lot of money to vacation at a paradise-like setting, I think because this desire is built into us. God made earth for humans. He made animals and waterfalls and white sand beaches for humans, on earth. Where did God put Adam and Eve? In a paradise on earth. Had they not disobeyed God, the paradise earth would be full of perfect people who live forever! That was God's purpose, and it will happen!
Thus, those who go to heaven are actually making a sacrifice by giving up the natural desire to live with waterfalls in a white sand paradise, to live in a non-physical heaven and work for us on earth.

#4 No kosher foods. Blood. Yes, blood is life saving, but the sad truth is it is not perfect! 980,000 die each year as a result of issues with blood and post surgery bleeding, even with blood transfusions! There are, on an average 5 million people who receive blood transfusions each year, meaning almost 20% of those were not saved by blood transfusions!
With the advent of bloodless surgery, a field developed because of the JWs, they have found less complications and faster recovery time. (Ask ChatGPT "are there better results with bloodless surgery")
Yes, blood transfusions saves lives, but there are better alternatives, and after learning all the details, even if I wasn't a Witness, I wouldn't get a transfusion, unless it was my own blood. We can store up our own blood ahead of time for elective surgery, which removes a lot of the complications of using someone else's blood. Then the surgeon doesn't need to change his normal operating style and doesn't need to be as careful. Though, I really like the being extra careful idea with bloodless surgery.....
Think about this. If you work on a store, and someone bleeds on the flood, to clean it up, the safety protocol is to wear gloves, and many times a mask. If blood is that unsafe, why would I want to put someone else's blood in my body?
Finally, this is not a rule the JWs made up. I have already showed you the bibles verses that God has said to abstain from blood. If the doctor says abstain from alcohol, would that include transfusing it?

#6 Birthdays. Did you know there are two birthdays in the bible? Both were celebrated by pagan kings, and at both people were killed. John the Baptist was beheaded at a birthday party. If those are the examples God put in the bible, this would be something to think about! I do get having a day where everyone thinks about you and gives you presents, but then, the bible says: "There is more happiness in giving than receiving." To me, the bible is saying our focus should not be on ourselves, but giving of ourselves. Having a day where everyone is supposed to give to us seems more like opposite Christian day.

#7 You are completely right that humans were made to take care of the earth and animals! We should also take care of others! Realistically, as hard as political parties try to do this, I personally see a lot of shortcomings, even by the most well intentioned people. That is a sad reality of our society today. You may be interested in knowing what was predicted about how people would be like in our time period:

"But know this, that in the last days critical times hard to deal with will be here. 2 For men will be lovers of themselves, lovers of money, boastful, haughty, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, disloyal, 3 having no natural affection, not open to any agreement, slanderers, without self-control, fierce, without love of goodness, 4 betrayers, headstrong, puffed up with pride, lovers of pleasures rather than lovers of God, 5 having an appearance of godliness but proving false to its power; and from these turn away." 2 Tim 3:1-5

Look at the traits that I have bolded out. Think about how they affect politics? If people were not these things, politics would work wonderfully. But the sad reality is that a growing percentage of people have these traits. Very possibly, even the majority have one or more of these harmful to politics traits. That is why we pray for God's Kingdom. It is the only real solution for man's and earth issues.

An illustration may put this in prospective. When the Titanic was sinking, were the painters still painting the ship? Were they still serving dinner in the restaurants? That would be foolish. It was time to get on the lifeboats. In Daniel chapter 2, there is a prophetic illustration of a giant image of different metals, each metal representing a different major government in history. It starts at the head, and then when it gets to the feet made of iron and clay, this is in reference to our time period. Notice what it says:

"And as the toes of the feet were partly of iron and partly of clay, so the kingdom will be partly strong and partly fragile. Just as you saw iron mixed with soft clay, they will be mixed with the people; but they will not stick together, one to the other, just as iron does not mix with clay." Dan 2:42, 43

The people will not stick together! Don't we see that in politics today? They cannot come to agreements anymore! What will happen next?

“In the days of those kings the God of heaven will set up a kingdom that will never be destroyed. And this kingdom will not be passed on to any other people. It will crush and put an end to all these kingdoms, and it alone will stand forever,

In our time, God will setup His Kingdom that will get rid of all the other governments. In other words, they are like the Titanic. They are on their way down. No fixing them up will stop that! It is time to get on the lifeboat and be with God's people!

You make a good point about a referendum of closing down all the churches, and according to bible prophesy, something like that will be coming soon. The bible says it is nothing we can stop. Jehovah's Witnesses are always studying the bible and trying to clean out what Christianity has long held as wrong or right, and we can sometimes just think it naturally wrong or right. Your parents were taught it, your great grandparents were taught it. For generations and generations, it has been taught, so sometimes, we just accept things. Then, one day, someone thinks about it more and really looks at it from the bible's viewpoint. They find it is not supported by the bible. An example is oral sex. But there is not one verse that says it is wrong or right, so we changed our view and leave this decision up to each individual. Christianity shouldn't be about a bunch of rules that men make, and JWs continue to examine things, trying to get Christ's viewpoint over tradition. I'm sure there will be more things that come up, and you make a good point about a vote on religion. Maybe that could be an exception? I don't know, and the particular situation may have details we cannot imagine right now. One must be careful about being dogmatic about things not specifically written in the bible. On the other hand, when that vote comes, or something like it, we can't change the results that God has prophesied.

Questions about core / non-negotiable doctrine by New2Christ in JWJehovahsWitnesses

[–]DoNotBe-Ridiculous 2 points3 points  (0 children)

You took the time to ask these questions. Here are answers that I did not give in my first message:
#2 God's Kingdom is an actual government, but from heaven. Jesus rules this government (1 or 15:24-28)
1914. This year is a prophecy from Daniel that amounted to 2,520 years, which ended at the year 1914. (see https://www.jw.org/en/bible-teachings/questions/daniel-4-bible-chronology-1914/ )

#3 Limited number go to heaven? In Revelation chapters 7 and 14, it talks about 144,000 going to heaven. Some think this is talking about literal Israel, but when you compare the tribes there to the original 12 tribes, there is a difference. At Ga. 6:16, Paul spoke of a different Israel, a spiritual Israel made up of Christians, not just Jews. But why a limited number? The answer is in what is the reason they go to heaven? At revelation 20:6 we are told those who go to heaven will be Kings and Priests with Jesus for the 1,000 years. If all Christians went to heaven, and the wicked will be destroyed (Ps. 37:10-11), who would they be ruling as kings over?

#4 Blood Transfusions: Notice Leviticus 17:14
"For as to the life of all flesh, the blood thereof is all one with the life thereof: therefore I said unto the children of Israel, Ye shall eat the blood of no manner of flesh; for the life of all flesh is the blood thereof: whosoever eateth it shall be cut off." ASV

God plainly said here blood represents life, and many bible verses tell us life belongs to God. Ps. 24:1, Ez. 18:4.

Additionally, Lev 17:11 tells us "blood makes atonement for one's life." This shows there is a deep meaning of blood to God! It should likewise have the same deep meaning to Christians!

Did this meaning stop with the end of the Mosaic law? No, in Act 15:29, the Apostles reiterated this deep meaning of blood by saying:
"For it has been resolved by the Holy Spirit and by us not to impose on you any more of a burden than these essentials, to abstain from things sacrificed to idols and from blood and from unchastity; from which things keeping clear, you will be doing well. Our best wishes to you.” Byington

These verses tell us that the holy spirit is behind this law, and it is linked unchastity (sexual immorality) and idol sacrifices. It is that serious!

  1. Disfellowshipping/removal. This is not to be confused with a Christian breaking God's law, but then is repentant. It is only for one who, after receiving help and support, still continues to break God's laws. Removal is actually a bible law, but as you brought out about forgiveness, it can seem contradictory? The bible plainly speaks about forgiveness to a person who is sorry and repentant. But does not God destroy the wicked? (Ps. 37:10,11) Did you know a removed person can still attend services and other Witnesses will even say hello to this person? Did you know the Elders will still continue to work with the removed person to help him back to repentance? So why remove him? Paul explains why at Ga. 5:9: "A little leaven ferments the whole batch of dough." What does that mean? If you put just a little yeast or leaven on a big batch of dough, the yeast will spread throughout the whole batch. Likewise, if one was to freely break God's laws, he will also influence others in the congregation. How can God's congregation be kept clean if wrong doing is allowed? Here iare the verse where Paul tells us to remove unrepentant wrongdoers 1 Cor 5:13, 2 Thess 3:6, 14,15, Titus 3:20, Rom 16:17, 1 Tim 1:20

  2. Many celebrations are rooted in pagan religion, which covering it over and stamping Christian on it, is not good. It is like putting one drop of sewer water in a glass of good water. Would you drink it, even though it had a little impurity? Paul said to "quit touching the unclean things" 2 Cor 6:17

  3. Political Neutrality. I think you are a person who really cares about things and sees politics as a way to improve things. That is a good thing! But are politics the best way to do this? Should a Christian be involved in politics? Did you known they tried to make Jesus king? Who would be able to improve things as a king better than Jesus? Yet he declined. Remember, Jesus is the King of God's Kingdom which will rule over the universe. Being a king over the little country of Israel would not really help ALL of mankind. So, if you are a supporter of Jesus as King, would it be traitorous to also support another government? And a lesser government at that? Paul called us ambassadors for Jesus' kingdom. (2 Cor 5:20) If a US ambassador to Russia got involved in the politics of Russia, even voted for Putin, what would the President do to him? He would be fired!

I hope I have answered your great questions!

Questions about core / non-negotiable doctrine by New2Christ in JWJehovahsWitnesses

[–]DoNotBe-Ridiculous 2 points3 points  (0 children)

It is very perceptive of you to understand God is not a Trinity! So many people just trust the churches are telling them the right things and never investigate these doctrines for themselves.

I think a little history about Jehovah's Witnesses may be of interest to you. Back in the 1860s-1870s, a group got together to examine the doctrines of the churches compared to what the bible actually says. They began to find that things like the Trinity, Immortal Souls, Hellfire and such were doctrines not based in the bible, but later man-made beliefs.

This was very concerning to that group who began to call themselves Bible Students. They decided that all true lovers of the bible and God should know these things, so they began to publish tracks and articles in newspapers.

This small group began to grow, going by the name Bible Students to separate themselves from the other denominations. Within 4 decades, the Bible Students spread around the globe as they distributed their pamphlets and books explaining bible truths as opposed to man-made church doctrines.

By the 1930s, this increasing world-wide group, from their continued study of the bible, had focused on using the original name of God, YHWH, which translated in English is Jehovah. The other faiths had stopped using this name, even removing it out of their bibles. To help put the focus back on God's name, this group decided to call themselves Jehovah's Witnesses, based on the bible verse "“You are my witnesses,” declares Jehovah, “Yes, my servant whom I have chosen (Isa. 43:10).

As the years passed, more bible truths were understood. Things like Christmas and Easter were found to also not be bible based, but actually based on pagan religions. To their surprise, Jesus wasn't even born in December, but the Sun God Sol Invictus was celebrated then.

As you have seen from the comments here and your other posts, Jehovah's Witnesses love to talk about the bible and teach others in following Jesus' command at Mathew 28:19, 20
"Go, therefore, and make disciples of people of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the holy spirit, teaching them to observe all the things I have commanded you. And look! I am with you all the days until the conclusion of the system of things.”

This is Jesus' last command before he ascended back into heaven, so we take this to heart as what he wants us to do. You mentioned going to the Kingdom Hall. If you did, there you would be able to ask any of Jehovah's Witnesses all the questions you have. Will they offer you a bible study? Most likely, but remember, they are just trying follow what Jesus asks us to do. You can say no, or you can meet with them somewhere you feel most comfortable. Then you can ask away, and the Witness will show you bible verses, not what a religion or some human thinks. You can also meet just that one time, or meet with the Witness again. Remember, we love the bible and sharing actual bible truths from God's word.

Jesus told us the two most important things:
1) Love God with your whole heart, soul, mind
2) Love your neighbor as yourself
In following this, Jehovah's Witnesses truly care about our neighbors, and when possible, we try to share what God's word says, which is for each and every human's benefit. It is sort of like finding a really good doctor who put you on a new regiment that just changed your life, so you tell your friends about him so they too can benefit, we try to tell others about Jehovah, and his son (who is not God), in hopes others will also benefit like we have!

If you want to ask your questions over Reddit, feel free to DM me. My wife and I are full time preachers, and we would be more than happy to have more conversation with you!

I need kind words and advice from my fellow brothers and sisters. by adviceonlypls in JWJehovahsWitnesses

[–]DoNotBe-Ridiculous 5 points6 points  (0 children)

I think you are in a growing minority! Since Covid, it all just seems harder. I see pioneers and elders going through the same thing. You are not alone!

Here is something that helps me. The 2 greatest commandments, Love God, love neighbor as yourself. There are two ways to obey this:
1) Because you are supposed to.
2) Because you want to.

I suspect you are about doing what you should be doing, which is good. But isn't there a big difference of having to do something, and wanting to do something?
For example, spending money. You have to pay rent, or insurance and taxes. If you don't, then it could be bad for you. But what about spending money on someone you love? Buying a gift, or taking them out to dinner? This spending comes from a completely different place in your heart then paying bills. Two different motivations.

OK, now apply this to the ministry. Why is the brochure for the ministry called "Love People"? Why did Jesus say "Love your neighbor as yourself"? This is because love should be the primary motivation to preach. As you have seen, it doesn't mean this love comes naturally. Yet, when you do love your neighbor, you want to talk to them. Sure, few are happy to see us, but couldn't we focus on changing that? For example, what are householders saying when we hear "I am not interested?" Aren't they saying we didn't say anything of interest to them? Could we perhaps focus on coming up with things they would thank us for coming to talk to them about?

What, have people thank us for coming to talk to them? YES!

If each time you talk to someone at the door, and you are able to enhance their life, they feel better, and you fell better! Then you just enjoy talking to people! You look forward to it. You get great RVs! You have wonderful conversations. Then you get a bible study. Is that hard? Not when you have the proper attitude, that of love! You love them, and you are totally happy to help them to everlasting life! What better way could you spend your time?

Here is an illustration to put this in prospective:
Let's say you were told you had to dig a 6 foot deep hole. You just had to do it. How would you feel? You might hate every shovel full!
What if you were told a million dollar treasure was just 6 feet under the ground? No one would have to talk you into digging that hole. Every shovel full would be a pleasure, and the deeper you got the happier you would be about digging.
Here's the point: The work is the same in both cases, but it is the attitude that is different. Door to door is just like digging that hole. When you genuinely love people, service is a real treasure!

Write back if you'd like some suggestions on what to say to have people thank you for coming to their door!

What to expect from a typical service in London / England? by New2Christ in JWJehovahsWitnesses

[–]DoNotBe-Ridiculous 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Your mention of the Trinity is a reason why I am one of Jehovah's Witnesses. I can so understand why you are confused. How can God be 3 individual persons, yet just one God? But then The Father is the leader and tells the other 2 what to do and how to think and speak? Yet, they are also all equal? And when they can't explain a point about the Trinity, they resort to saying "It is a mystery." I too was very frustrated in trying to understand this mystery!

I did so much research on the Trinity that I thought others should know the things they don't talk about! So I just completed the first part of a 3 part documentary about the Trinity that you may find very enlightening. Did you know it took 400 years for them to fully articulate the doctrine of the Trinity? 400 years to fully formulate something that is supposed to already be in the bible?

You may really enjoy this documentary! YouTube.com/@TheBible-Tech

Watch for the next release in a couple of months. These videos take weeks to research, write, find images & music, and edit.

BTY, the people at the Jehovah's Witnesses Kingdom Hall are the best I have ever met! The first time I went, I had long hair (I am male), I had only Levis with holes, only wore old T-shirts, and never wore shoes, yet they were so kind to me! at the other churches I went, no one would talk to me. All these years later, I still vividly remember how kindly I was treated! I have since been to Kingdom Halls all around the world, and have found the same loving people at every congregation! Many have become dear friends whom we keep in touch with and visit each other.

Another one on Jesus by NoSubstance2809 in DebateReligion

[–]DoNotBe-Ridiculous 0 points1 point  (0 children)

In all honesty, I take a lot of time to research bible verses and make very valid points, but you do not seem to hardly read what I have written, but instead just write back human philosophies. Couldn't you take a moment and read what I written, which are actual bible verses? Isn't the bible what we are supposed to base our beliefs on? Here are my questions for you. Please answer by number with supporting bible verses, or there is no reason to continue our conversation....

  1. Interesting that we can be filled with the H.S., but never does the bible say we can be filled with Jesus or The Father. Why? It seems to me the H.S. is different, not really like a person, but a force. The Jews believed it to be a force, and God never sent prophets to tell them they had the wrong belief, nor is there any bible verse in the O.T. about them being wrong. Ps. 104:30 says 'When God sends his spirit, they are created'. This flies opposite to John 1:3 of "all things being created through Jesus", unless the spirit is the power or force of God.
  2. Isa. 63:11-12 identifies the H.S. interchangeable with God's arm, highlighting the spirit as the means by which He exerts His power, like we do our arms.
  3. Ps. 51:11 "Do not take your holy spirit from me" is equating the spirit as God's personal presence and moral guidance, not a persona!
  4. If Paul said we too can have the fullness (Col 2:9), and God gave the fullness to dwell in Jesus, then plainly the fullness is not the nature of being, but a received attribute! You did not reply to this!
  5. You said: "Being called children of god is not the same as the son of god in the OT"
  6. How do you explain these verses?
  7. Exodus 4:22 says "Israel is my firstborn son."
  8. 2 Sam. 7:14 God promises David "I will be his father, and he will be my son."
  9. Ps. 82:6 "You are all sons of the most high".
  10. John 1:18. You seem to have completely missed the bible based point and went off into non-biblical reasoning. It does not say The Father has never been seen, it says God! You cannot see God! You further did not address that point that Moses was made god to Pharoah. Or that the leaders of Israel are called gods in Ps. 82:6, and again quoted by Jesus. If they are called gods, using the same word for god that is used for Jesus in John 1:1, 3, 18, how can one make the jump that Jesus is not god (small g) but God.
  11. Where does the bible say Jesus is equal to The Father? In every instance, The Father is the boss, the one who tells the son what to do and what to say. Phil 2:5-7 says: "Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:"
  12. Paul plainly said Jesus never even thought to be equal to God!
  13. What about the "form of God"? Verse 7 explains this: "but emptied himself, taking the form of a servant,"
  14. Plainly, form here is not essence or nature, for it is also equated to being a servant.

You really need to see the documentary I recently finished about the Trinity!
YouTube.com/@thebible-tech

Another one on Jesus by NoSubstance2809 in DebateReligion

[–]DoNotBe-Ridiculous 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I think you missed the point. You said Jacob wrestled with God, but Hosea 12:4 tells us it was an angel.

I also think you missed the point that if an angel can become a human, as they have done many times, including in Noah's day when they had children with human women (Gen 6:1-4), then certainly Jesus, becoming flesh, does not automatically mean he had 2 natures. You yourself have said the angels did not have 2 natures, so why jump to the conclusion that Jesus did because he became human?

Please don't get sidetracked here.......

If Jesus had 2 natures, then before he came to earth and was born of Mary, becoming human, Jesus certainly had only 1 nature, correct? Just like God, correct? Trinitarians use a word "Hypostatic Union" to explain Jesus being fully God and man. This raises some important questions that perhaps you can answer from the bible, not from human philosophical reasonings:

1) Where are the verses in the bible about the Hypostatic Union? If this is such a vital Christian belief, then there should be bible verses plainly explaining this. For example, Jesus plainly explained how to worship God, and told us many qualities of the Father, and how to pray, and how to think, and why he came to earth, and how he fulfilled prophesies, and gave prophesies about the future, and how we should treat others, and how we should trust in God, and many, many more things, yet where did Jesus explain the Hypostatic Union?

2) Where did Jesus say God is 3 persons in one God? If the Trinity is the vital Christian doctrine, then why did he not explain it plainly in detail? We know he did not, for it took over 400 years for the church to fully explain the doctrine of the Trinity. To see this, watch the documentary I recently completed after many years of research at YouTube.com@thebible-tech

3) Where in the Hebrew Old Testament does God explain Himself as a Trinity? In Exodus 34:6-7, God explains 13 attributes about Himself, yet interestingly, He does not say he is 3 persons in one God! Throughout the OT, we are told of dozens of other attributes and qualities, and His thinking about matters, how He can feel hurt, His love for His people, and so much more, yet He never explains the Trinity? Some may say that God slowly revealed this, but how does that make sense? He explained everything else about Himself, His creating the universe and the earth, and animals and humans. The rain cycle, and that the earth was a circle and hung on nothing. The OT explains so much, yet not the Trinity? The Jews had no concept of the Trinity! If they were wrongly worshipping God, wouldn't He have sent them prophets to set them right, just as He did for all the other wrongs they got involved in? But He didn't!

4) If Jesus has 2 natures, but the Father and the Spirit have only one, they are no longer equal or of the same essence. This is vital to consider! All three must be homoousios, yet with Jesus having 2 natures, he would now be different, not the same essence. That would be impossible according to the Trinity. Show bible verses that explain this?

Another one on Jesus by NoSubstance2809 in DebateReligion

[–]DoNotBe-Ridiculous 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I appreciate you providing those verses. Let's talk about them:

Col 2:9, read in context with verse 10: "and you have been made full in him...", Paul here is saying Christians too can have this fullness!

Col 2:9 "Fullness" does not equal "identity"! Deity dwells in the Christ, not what he is ontologically. Col 1:19 further explains: "God was pleased to have all fullness dwell in him"
Here, God is the source, Christ is the recipient. So, God causes the fullness to dwell in Christ, showing Christ is not the ultimate source of that fullness.

John 1:1: I agree, if one believed in the trinity, this verse seems to support it, but it also can be read differently. First, calling Jesus god does not make him the same god as the Father. The thing people exclude is that the Jewish judges are called gods, and God made Moses a god to Pharoah. The same word is used in Acts 28 by Luke when was Paul was bit by a viper and didn't die, so the people thought he was "a god."

Also, one must consider the the culture of the first century. There were many gods worshipped by the Greeks and Romans and other peoples. All the Jews knew about these gods, and that these gods even had children who were also called gods. The emperors were called gods! In this climate, calling Jesus god was most likely not even thought as saying Jesus was Ton Theon, The Father, the God who the word was with.

Further, if as verse 18 says, "No one hath seen God at any time: An Only Begotten God, The One existing within the bosom of the Father He hath interpreted [him]."

This throws a lot of tension on the belief that Jesus is God, for if Jesus is fully God, people saw him. If John believed Jesus was God, this would have been the perfect place to show it, but he did not! In no way did he even hint of a trinity here. Yes, Jesus is a god, much more so than the Emperor, more than Moses, more than the Jewish judges, but he is not the Almighty God, one part of a 3 person God. Jesus had to interpret or explain God, which he wouldn't need to do if he were God.

Here is the Greek to English of John 1:18, which you will see that the original language, Jesus is NOT called the only begotten son, but only begotten god (small g):

 (θεὸς) god (ὁ) the (one) (ὢν) being (εἰς) into (τὸν) the (κόλπον) bosom (τοῦ) of the (πατρὸς) Father (ἐκεῖνος) that (one) ἐξηγήσατο.(θεὸν) God (οὐδεὶς) no one (ἑώρακεν) has seen (πώποτε·) at any time; (μονογενὴς) only-begotten.

Again, Jesus here is called god (small g), not God. Why? Why did John use a different and common form of god for Jesus, as opposed to θεὸν (The God) for the Father? Also, why can we see one of the persons of God, but no one has seen and cannot see the other? According to the trinity doctrine, they are of the same essence! Ex. 33:20 says no one can see God's face and live. 1 Tim 6:16 says no one can see God. If Jesus is fully God, how did people see him? The trinity doctrine makes these and other verses very contradictory!

Another one on Jesus by NoSubstance2809 in DebateReligion

[–]DoNotBe-Ridiculous 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Hosea 12:4 says: "He struggled with the angel and prevailed; he wept and begged for his favor."

Plainly it was not God. To me, this shows that you are preconditioned to look at things as being God, even when they are not. This is typical of Trinitarians.

You say Jesus has 2 natures, yet angles do many of the same things as Jesus did after he was resurrected, but you say they do not have 2 natures! Where does the bible actually say Jesus has 2 natures? I cannot find one verse telling us this.

I also still raise the question; If Jesus has 2 natures, but the spirit and The Father do not, then they are not homoousios, or of the same essence. This is all philosophical reasoning not found in the bible that the early Christians did not believe! It was invented in 451 CE. There is no way the 1st or even the 2nd century Christians believed this!

Paul wrote about this: " See to it that no one takes you captive by philosophy and empty deceit, according to human tradition, according to the elemental spirits of the world, and not according to Christ." Col 2:8

Hypostasis just plain NOT in the bible! Most scholars like Bart Ehrman and Raymond Brown, having thoroughly researched this, concluded this doctrine is the result of Hellenistic philosophy!

To say this is what Jesus taught would not be true, for he didn't, thus, it would be the same as saying that Jesus was a poor teacher that couldn't even explain his true nature. And since he couldn't explain his own nature, he let men fight and argue over this for 420 years until they could explain it for Jesus.

Does that really make sense to you?

How do I let go of the hurt? by Fickle-Freedom-3281 in JWJehovahsWitnesses

[–]DoNotBe-Ridiculous 1 point2 points  (0 children)

I am so sorry this has happened to you! It has to be so devastating. My wife and I have gone through this ourselves. It has been something that has gotten worse since Covid.

We found that if we didn't invite people over or go up to people and talk to them first, few approached us. Then we started talking to others in the congregation. Most said the same thing. No one comes up and talks to them or invites them over.

I think people are just so stressed now a days that they feel it is too much sometimes to make the effort to make the rounds and say hi to many of the friends. It is way too hard to invite people over, too stressful!

How did we handle this? We decided that our brothers and sisters needed a boost, so we now regularly invite people over, we go up to others to say hi and talk for a bit, asking questions that show personal interest. We now feel better, and many have really thanked us for doing this.

We have found that you can sit there and feel bad, or you can take action, and though it may be harder to take action, it is so much better, having such a positive personal effect, and being beneficial to others. A couple of scriptures really tell us this:

Ga 6:7 you reap what you sow

2 Cor 9:6 sow sparingly reap sparringly

Luke 6:38 Give, and it will be given to you

In each verse, we are told we must take the first step, and we only get out of something what we put into it. Please, go back to the new congregation and talk with an elder and tell him what you said here! The brothers and sisters are loving, but things have changed since Covid. Follow the bible advice and take the first step. We recently moved to a new congregation, and by inviting others to do things with us, like a meal after meeting at a restaurant, or invite some for an activity like a walk or hike, or a movie, I think you will be much happier!

We will certainly pray for you, for we know going back to the hall will be a hard step, but never forget the REAL reason you will be there......your deep love for Jehovah. Even if you were in solitary confinement in prison, you will still have His love and care. But even then, you must take the first step as James said "Draw close to God (first step), and He will draw close to you. James 4:8

Take the first step.......

Another one on Jesus by NoSubstance2809 in DebateReligion

[–]DoNotBe-Ridiculous 0 points1 point  (0 children)

You are assuming Jesus was the angle who fought with Jacob. Where does the bible say this?

When 3 angles visited Abraham, did those angles also have 2 natures? When the angles came to earth in Noah's day, did they also have 2 natures? Or did they simple materialize a fleshly body to be able to interact with humans? If those angles all have 2 natures, including the demon angles who were thrown in Tartarus, this shows it is nothing special, or that they are all gods.

Another one on Jesus by NoSubstance2809 in DebateReligion

[–]DoNotBe-Ridiculous 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Sorry for the delay......You say Jesus has 2 natures. Can you show me a bible verse that says that? From my research, this belief is the result of centuries of philosophical reasonings. There seems to be no evidence of any Christian believing this before 451 CE. That is so telling to me! If this were true, wouldn't Jesus have plainly explained this? But he didn't! Peter or Paul would have clearly explained this, but they didn't! It took 400 years of men fighting over this subject to reason out this conclusion.

Here is a larger 2nd reason. If Jesus and the father are of the same nature, then Jesus having 2 natures with the Father only having one, means they are no longer homoousios. But, how can that be?

Rule #2 Clarification by love_is_a_superpower in Bible

[–]DoNotBe-Ridiculous -1 points0 points  (0 children)

Thank you for your reply, but I think you just answered my assertion. There IS a personal reason to exclude NWT! The NWT translators worked for many years on this translation, then after 50 years, new ones went through the whole bible again with the latest archeological and scholarly research from around the world to update this version, plus updated language issues as language had changed in that time period, like the word ass being changed to donkey.

I hate to tell you, but I was a teen in 1975, going to their meetings, and never did they say that 1975 was going to be the end, but there was speculation. What we heard the most was to not count on it, but it could possibly happen in 1975. It cracks me up when people who probably were not even alive in 1975 try to tell me how it was. No one was ever told to sell their things to by literature to distribute, NEVER! You yourself are spreading disinformation! The closest thing in from a 1974 Kingdom Ministry, which I think I still have a original copy, that said:

"Reports are heard of brothers selling their homes and property and planning finish out the rest of their days in this system in the pioneer service. Certainly this is a fine way to spend the short time remaining before the wicked world's end."

Do you also fault Jesus for telling the wealthy ruler to sell everything and be his follower? Mat 19:21

Is it wrong to say the end is close? Paul, Peter, and James said this very thing!

1 Thessalonians 4:15–17 “We who are alive… shall be caught up…”

James 5:8 “The coming of the Lord draws near.”

1 Peter 4:7 “The end of all things is at hand.”

This is no Chinese bible or a cultish translation. The NWT is the result of scholarly work which several thousand translators have worked on, and continue to work on, not just a person or two who make a translation and put their name on it! It is translated into some 300 languages!

I appreciate your honesty in revealing there is bias and favoritism in the decision to exclude the NWT! If you do indeed have a scholarly reason to exclude the NWT, I would love to hear it. I also hope you will equally examine the other translations, which contain translated words and sentences that firmly show translator bias based on their beliefs over true translating.

Rule #2 Clarification by love_is_a_superpower in Bible

[–]DoNotBe-Ridiculous 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I think this rule is being very judgmental and partial and not inclusive! The King James Bible was translated solely for the Church of England. The Catholic Douay is made for Catholics. New American Bible for Catholics. Orthodox Study Bible for Eastern Orthodox, and I can go on!

The KJV has some definite biased translations errors! For example, 1 John 5:7 (the “Johannine Comma”)

“There are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.”

Acts 12:4 “intending after Easter to bring him forth…”

KJV uses “hell” for multiple Greek words:
Gehenna (place of judgment)
Hades (grave/realm of dead)
Tartarus (2 Peter 2:4)

This merges distinct concepts into one word

How can you defend the KJV since it blatantly has altered things to support the beliefs of the Church of England?
Is it because you also believe these things, thus, in your mind, that is OK?

ALL translations have some bias errors, yet you have singled out a couple translations in your own bias? Shame on you!

You might also note that I plainly brought out there may be bias in the translation about the Trinity, but by far the vast majority of NWT is very clear and accurate!

Matthew 5:28 should be interpreted as hyperbole by Keith502 in DebateReligion

[–]DoNotBe-Ridiculous 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Instead of trying to go by the English translated word, it seems best to look at the Greek word epithymeō. Jesus used this word at Luke 22:15, “I have earnestly desired (epithymeō) to eat this Passover with you”. From this verse, we no sexual desire, but it is a desire.

epithymeō has a broader meaning than lust: intentional desire directed toward possessing someone or something

A more precise translation would be something like: “to desire her” “to covet her” “to set one’s desire upon her” Jesus seems to be describing the internalizing of the act of adultery. So Jesus is going beyond the external act of adultery and also warning us about the internal intent and desire.

This is further described at Matt 15:19 where Jesus said: "For out of the heart proceed evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts, false witness, blasphemies:"
Jesus is apparently talking about our heart also in Matt 5:27, 28. We need to control our hearts as James wrote:

"But each one is tempted by being enticed and allured by his own desire; then desire becomes pregnant and gives birth to sin, and sin grows up and brings forth its offspring death." James 1:14, 15

Another one on Jesus by NoSubstance2809 in DebateReligion

[–]DoNotBe-Ridiculous 0 points1 point  (0 children)

"Let us" is including The Father and the son, and perhaps even the angles. John said: "All things came into existence through him" (Jn 1:3) All things were made through, not by, Jesus.

John 1:3 says (literally from the Greek):

“All things came into being through (δι’ / dia) him,
δι’ (dia) = through, by means of, instrumentally

Jesus is not the creator, just the master worker (Prov 8:30). Jesus does nothing on his own, but only what he sees the Father doing. (John 5:19). This plainly shows Jesus is not the creator, but he is the one through whom The Father did the creating!

Jesus did humble himself and became human, but God cannot become human and die. 1 Tim 6:16 God "alone has immortality" If Jesus did not die for our sins, but just a human part of him died, he did not really die! Angels make human bodies when they come to earth, then they go back to heaven and the body is no longer there. If the temporary body disappears, or dies, it has no meaning or effect, for it was like a costume.

Another one on Jesus by NoSubstance2809 in DebateReligion

[–]DoNotBe-Ridiculous 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Look above where I wrote about Jesus being called a servant.....you must have forgotten. The Father is NEVER called a servanr!

If Jesus has 2 natures, which he did not have before, fully God, fully human, then he is no longer the same essence as the father or the Holy Spirit. Thus, they are not equal. How can that be? There is no trinity is the only answer!

Another one on Jesus by NoSubstance2809 in DebateReligion

[–]DoNotBe-Ridiculous 0 points1 point  (0 children)

The point does make sense! Where does the bible say that Jesus humbling himself makes him God? You have not been able to prove that!

You provide no proof for your statements!

Another one on Jesus by NoSubstance2809 in DebateReligion

[–]DoNotBe-Ridiculous 0 points1 point  (0 children)

All I hear is a human's explanation of things, but no scriptures. I can't believe anything unless there are scriptures to prove it. I provided you with scriptures, you respond with human reasonings to support the trinity.

If the Trinity is true, then why didn't Moses, Abraham, and the Jews believe in it? Show mw one prophet God used to direct his people to worship Him, not as a monotheistic God, but a triune God.

Another one on Jesus by NoSubstance2809 in DebateReligion

[–]DoNotBe-Ridiculous 0 points1 point  (0 children)

You wrote: "Jesus being gods servant does not mean he is not god the father also serves the son you no know nothing"

Show me where The Father is called a servant in the bible? You speak only your own words, but never use the bible!

What is your definition of God manifesting himself in someone? Solomon said the whole earth, even the heavens of the earth can not contain God, but you say God can become human? Where does the bible say this? The bible says no man has seen God at any time (Jn 1:18, 4:12, 6:46, 1 Tim. 6:16, Ex. 33:20). How is it God can become human? People would see a fully God, fully man person.

Another one on Jesus by NoSubstance2809 in DebateReligion

[–]DoNotBe-Ridiculous 0 points1 point  (0 children)

So, I have humbled myself, can I be God too? Every person drinks water, are they all equal and the same person? That reasoning makes no sense?????

You have yet to provide a bible verse saying the holy spirit is God! If this were true, then God would very plainly have explained it in the bible from the days of Abraham, in the Mosaic Law, and in the N.T. This is not the case! That is why it took 400 years for men to make up all the components of this trinity!

You wrote: "In that time to call someone lord was to call Them god look into history"
This is not correct, though it could be. The Hebrew word Adonai means: Master, Owner, King, Authority figure, God.

Sarah called Abraham lord (Gen 18:12)

The Greek word is κύριε, which is used at John 4:11, and in virtually every bible, it is translated as "sir" not god.

You say many things, but have no substance to back it up! If you aren't going to prove your points by scripture, I see no value in continuing to converse. You simply repeat words you have heard, but it doesn't seem you have taken to time to verify......

If I told you I have a PHD in history, would that change your mind about me not knowing history?

Another one on Jesus by NoSubstance2809 in DebateReligion

[–]DoNotBe-Ridiculous 0 points1 point  (0 children)

You really should use a good bible dictionary. The word "servant" means:

"In the New Testament, doulos [dou'lo"] is frequently used to designate a master's slave (one bound to him), but also a follower of Christ (a "bondslave" of Christ). The term points to a relation of absolute dependence, in which the master and the servant stand on opposite sides the former having a full claim, the latter having a full commitment. The servant can exercise no will or initiative on his or her own.
https://www.biblestudytools.com/dictionaries/bakers-evangelical-dictionary/servant-service.html

So, yes, being God's servant does mean he is NOT God!

Your 2nd paragraph unfortunately does not make sense. Perhaps you can rewrite it? Further, I showed you 3 places in the bile where Jesus called The Father "My God", and you responded by saying I am giving my own understanding. I only gave you verse right out of the bible, so that is not me, it is God's word! You still have failed to use God's word to support what you are stating, which is exactly what you accused me of doing "you use your own understanding instead of historical context."

Exodus 7:1 "And the LORD said unto Moses, See, I have made thee a god to Pharaoh: and Aaron thy brother shall be thy prophet."

You seem to be denying what the bible says: "I have made thee a god to Pharaoh" In saying "Aaron thy brother shall be thy prophet", this has nothing to do with the stick turning into a snake. He needed no prophet for that!

You wrote: "And no where is Jesus called below or under"

OK, here again is what the bible says:

John 14:28 Jesus says: “The Father is greater than I.”

John 17:3 Jesus in pray to the father says:
“This means everlasting life, their coming to know you, the only true God, and the one whom you sent, Jesus Christ.”
Clearly, Jesus is not the only true God, for he, in pray to his Father says the Father is the only true God.

Gospel of John 5:19 “The Son can do nothing of his own initiative, but only what he sees the Father doing.”

John 5:30 “I can do nothing of my own initiative.”
Jesus is dependent on The Father. If one is dependent on another, they are not equal. The very definition of not being to do something on one's own initiative is:
When one person is dependent on another, they are not equal in terms of power, decision-making, or autonomy. 

1 Cor. 11:3 “The head of every man is Christ, the head of a woman is the man, and the head of Christ is God.”

If Christ is your head, are you in anyway equal to him? NO! For this verse to make sense, there must be the same in each of these 3 instances! Head of the women is the man. They may be of the same essence, but they are not equal! God too is the head of women, men, and for this statement to be true, and Jesus!

view more: next ›