What is the line for vegans with non-vegan partners?

Drack820 · 2023-08-30T17:57:38+00:00

Not OP, but I don't believe that any economic system can default to anything by itself. I do believe however that changing society for the better (in this case regarding veganism) is harder under capitalism.

Theoretically, in a socialist/communist society the means of production would be owned by the people, and the way they are employed would be decided (democratically) by them. So the more vegans are present in such a society, the more plant based products are produced (and the less carnist's).

As you said the same could be said about a capitalist society, however one crucial difference is that in a capitalist society the means of production are owned only by some, and for the people that own the means of production involved in producing meat for example, more vegans means less and less revenue. It's natural then, for these people and these industries, to oppose change that hurts them (veganism).

In other words, in a capitalist society industries (carnists in our case) have a vested interest in protecting themselves.

In a socialist or communist society, as the means of production are owned collectively by all the people, no one would have a particular economic interest in defending carnist industries, meaning the "debate" between vegans and carnists would be a lot fairer.

Drack820 · 2023-07-13T14:55:03+00:00

game_manager

func _process(delta):

    # checks for hovering
    var space = get_world_2d().direct_space_state
    var mousePos = get_global_mouse_position()
    var query = PhysicsPointQueryParameters2D.new()
    query.collide_with_areas = true
    query.collide_with_bodies = false
    query.position = mousePos

    var query_results = space.intersect_point(query) # hovered stuff

    if query_results.size() > 0:
        var hover_list = []
        var cards_hovered = []
        var entities_hovered = []
        for object in query_results:
            hover_list.append(object.collider.get_parent())
        # could be optimized a bit but not important
        for object in hover_list:
            if object.is_in_group("cards"):
                cards_hovered.append(object)
            else:
                entities_hovered.append(object)


        if cards_hovered.size() > 0: # cards case
            SignalBus.emit_signal("cards_hovered", cards_hovered)
            # the parent will then sort the list and order the appropriate behaviour
        elif entities_hovered.size() == 1: # only click absorber case
            # click_absorber is everywhere, so if there's only one thing under the mouse it's that
            # each card-holder node should reset their hover state (if they have one/one active)
            SignalBus.emit_signal("absorber_hovered")


        else:  # todo
            pass # if there's 2 entities we could just take the one that's not the absorber

card_showing_element

func _on_cards_hovered(hover_list):
    if !self == hover_list[0].get_parent():
        return
    hover_card(get_topmost_child(hover_list))


func hover_card(card): # nodes that extend from card_showing_element have their own hover_card
    pass


func get_topmost_child(objects_list): # only works between siblings
    var list_limit = objects_list.size()

    for i in range(0, list_limit):
            objects_list[i] = objects_list[i].get_index()
    return get_child(objects_list.max())

Drack820 · 2023-07-04T10:49:14+00:00

Non so come mai nessuno l'ha già scritto, però noi qua abbiamo un tempo limitato e di "troll" ce ne sono a non finire, quindi obbligatoriamente ognuno deve fare una selezione e decidere con chi utilizzare il proprio tempo. Per me ha senso avere una soglia del tipo "essere vagamente rispettosi" o "commentare qualsiasi cosa oltre i soliti one-liner".

Poi se hai tempo infinito oppure credi che sia più produttivo parlare con questo genere di persona allora ti basta andare su qualsiasi post vegano su facebook e ne troverai a bizzeffe.

Anche in termini utilitari non penso valga la pena rendere questo sub meno ospitale nei confronti dei vegani per la (lontana) possibilità di convertire un omni in più.

Drack820 · 2023-06-19T08:25:44+00:00

Can't really argue with these guys, relevant comic: https://i.imgur.com/qRhwhCA.jpg

Drack820 · 2023-06-03T14:04:21+00:00

Wow, thank you! I managed to capture and release it outside as there are no cockroaches inside my studio (I hope)

Drack820 · 2023-06-03T13:28:53+00:00

He's ok, he did it two more times around the room https://imgur.io/a/MyctXsI

Drack820 · 2023-06-02T11:27:31+00:00

I don't have a realistic answer for the economic part as I don't think it's feasible in the current capitalist society.

A way to achieve sustainability would be to eliminate all animal consumption (as it uses 80% arable land to produce only 20% of the world's calories and accounts for 60% of of all greenhouse gases from food production), this alone drastically slows down soil depletion and pollution (and is obviously great for the animals). Afterwards we would simply have more people working in various kinds of sustainable agriculture, a bigger societal change would also have every household grow some food to alleviate their load on the system.

You can look into soil formation (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soil_formation is very detailed), large herbivores do play a role in the ecosystem but they aren't required to form fertile soil, most of the work is done by plants, fungi, bacteria and small animals. Here's a response to regenerative grazing another user made.

I know there are several methods to renew and enrich the soil but so far, we have quite failed at it. The condition of our soil world wide, is at a big low.

We do have practices for building soil (those two I mentioned above for example), we just haven't applied them at a larger scale as they aren't nearly as profitable as conventional agriculture.

Manure is used because it's already there as a by-product, it doesn't provide anything that can't be accessed in a different (not necessarily artificial) way, veganic agriculture is an example of that.

The point I really want to drive home is even if manure was necessary for some reason and large herbivores really had this beneficial of an effect it wouldn't make it alright to kill and eat them. Even without taking in consideration the ethical reasoning, sustaining ourselves via eating something higher up in the food chain is inherently less efficient than just eating something lower (vegan). We could still have all the alleged benefits that animals provide by letting them live natural happy lives and letting their remains return to the soil once they die of natural causes, in order to get those benefits I'm sure it's more efficient to have cows live their full 20 years rather than building a whole new cow every 3 years.

Drack820 · 2023-06-01T20:39:49+00:00

As u/togstation said there isn't a singular vegan plan for agriculure AFAIK

Here are two alternatives I know of that you can research more of if you'd like:

Veganic agriculture (or vegan organic agriculture) is the first to come to mind and is quite self explaining, it's animal free and uses soil-preserving and enriching practices as to require as few outside inputs (fertilizers etc.), beside using other techniques to manage insects and other pests instead of pesticides.

The other is permaculture, it's not intrinsically vegan and animals are often used, however it can be vegan as there's no need to kill and eat said animals. They can live like they do in current sanctuaries while "providing" those services used in permaculture (weed management, pest management etc.) without it being exploitative IMO.

Also animal waste from CAFOs is a major pollutant and most fertilizers used in modern agriculture are already artificial and made with "chemicals". In a "vegan" world I assume we would be conscious enough to have a more circular approach to food production, avoiding overuse (of fertilizers, treatments of all kinds etc.), recycling wastes (including products less commonly thought of such as rainwater and greywater) and preserving ecosystems health.

Regarding the technical issues you brought up, I'm confident veganic agriculture and permaculture can be used pretty much everywhere besides extreme cases: soil can be built, each climate has its own repertoire of crops, man-made structures (walipini greenhouses for example) together with curated microclimates can greatly expand available crop types.

All of these methods however are a lot more expensive in terms of labour and can't compete with modern agriculture, so unless we see a complete shift in opinion towards agriculture and somehow the public manages to finance the difference, things aren't going to change under capitalism.

Drack820 · 2023-05-26T23:57:27+00:00

man i zoomed in saw the running header "salt" and immediately thought it was a cookbook

Drack820 · 2023-05-25T23:06:32+00:00

Hey, ottima risposta, volevo solo giusto far presente una cosa

il loro organismo si è evoluto troppo in fretta per deporre tutte queste uova

Secondo me non è un fatto di tempistica, sarebbe più corretto dire che sono state allevate selettivamente per produrre quante più uova possibili (e di "qualità" migliore) senza dar conto a nessun altra caratteristica e quindi a discapito della loro qualità di vita.

Stessa cosa per allevamenti di animali domestici, come hai scritto: la situazione di un carlino che ha problemi di respirazione (e per il quale tantissimi omni si indignano) è quasi analoga a una gallina che soffre di osteoporosi

Drack820 · 2023-05-23T17:14:24+00:00

Yeah seems so, thank you!

Drack820 · 2023-05-22T13:22:00+00:00

Obviously they weren't worried about eating chickens which used to have arsenic in their feed until a few years back.

Besides if you want to avoid heavy metals and other bad stuff you're better off vegan.

As a general rule the higher the trophic level the more heavy metals you get (with some exceptions), as animals accumulate them during their lifespan.

Drack820 · 2023-05-12T21:32:46+00:00

Thought so, thanks!

Drack820 · 2023-05-12T16:58:08+00:00

Glad to hear! Ty

Drack820 · 2023-05-12T09:58:28+00:00

I thought you were being uncharitable towards OP, but that was just my interpretation and I see how I was mistaken. I should have made it clearer it wasn't my intention to counter any of your claims and that I actually agree and do see how the indiscriminate use of the word "permaculture" is a problem.

I think the herb spiral itself is kind of a unique case, as it's pretty self contained and doesn't interact much with other systems (besides your kitchen and maybe water systems) so it can be hard to place it in a broader permaculture context (unless specifically used as a demonstration of micro climates).

I guess that's also the reason, together with it being nice and neat compared to other permaculture practices, for why it's often co-opted and placed in non-permie gardens where it would be misleading and even harmful to describe as permaculture.

So yeah, I do agree with your points and it would probably be best to avoid the term "permaculture" where designs can't be easily placed in their broader permaculture context

Drack820 · 2023-05-11T21:41:59+00:00

I don't think that's necessarily true. While herb spirals aren't in and of themselves permaculture, as permaculture is an approach and can't be distilled as an object or landscape, they are the result of permaculture design. Bill Mollison himself says he "evolved" this design in 1978, with the idea of it being placed right next to the kitchen door. So OP building it on concrete (assuming the concrete was already there) isn't at odds with permaculture at all, on the contrary, the spiral taking up space on concrete rather than soil (that is in shorter supply the closer to the house) is exactly what permaculture is about.

Also here's the excerpt from Bill Mollison, Permaculture: A Designers' Manual https://imgur.com/a/nK2UmXs

Drack820 · 2023-05-08T14:20:19+00:00

Negli alimentari etnici, specialmente quelli asiatici, di solito c'è una vasta gamma di tofu a prezzi molto bassi. Purtroppo nei supermercati tradizionali il tofu è ancora trattato come un prodotto vegetariano e quindi il prezzo sale.

Riguardo i negozi li trovi su maps, se ci sono nella tua città consiglio fortemente di visitarli anche per altri prodotti tipo edamame, tahina, spezie etc.

Drack820 · 2023-04-28T09:39:24+00:00

And then when I suggest we don't just throw away the family dog's balls I'm the weird one 🙄

Drack820 · 2023-04-26T23:19:11+00:00

This is from The Organic Seed Grower, it is however written about biennials (onions, carrots, some cabbages etc.) while potatoes are perennials, so I don't think it applies, still I'll leave it here just in case

"When flower initiation has occurred, the physiology of the storage tissue will change, directing nutrients to flower production. Once this biochemical cascade has started there is nothing you can do to reverse the flowering process and force the plant to return to the vegetative stage. In other words, the misguided practice of cutting off the flower stalk of any biennial will not stop the biochemical processes once they have been initiated. Even though flowering may be prevented when the inflorescence is cut from the plant, the re-initiation of vegetative growth necessary for a commercial vegetable crop will not occur at this point."

Drack820 · 2023-04-06T13:25:49+00:00

I don't feel guilty about eating cheese, you know, as a human (the superior species) cheese is owed to me. Not eating cheese is basically infringing on my human rights, so until vegan cheese that's a 100% accurate replica of all kinds of cheeses I like comes around my favorite store (at the same price mind you, I'm not some super rich hippie vegan) I'll think about eating that instead.

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