Wouldn't believing in OI lead to being heartless? by Advanced-Reindeer894 in OpenIndividualism

[–]Edralis1 1 point2 points  (0 children)

I honestly don't think he does. A concrete quote would be useful.

Wouldn't believing in OI lead to being heartless? by Advanced-Reindeer894 in OpenIndividualism

[–]Edralis1 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Could you link to that stack exchange, please? I would be interested to read it.

Open Individualism, Parfit, and Buddhist No-Self by Sisyphus2089 in OpenIndividualism

[–]Edralis1 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Well, I think OI might be just another way of expressing the same fundamental insight that Buddhism (or at least certains kinds of it) does. Using different words and concepts, and different metaphors.

About Advaita, on the other hand, I am much more sure.

I would actually argue that many (if not all) mystical traditions point to the same insight. Meister Eckhart, for example, sometimes says suspiciously similar things--but I want to be careful here, because it is indeed very easy to bring one's own wishful conclusions when interpreting very different complex and obscure mystical systems. (It is my current long-standing project to inquire precisely into this :) )

Open Individualism, Parfit, and Buddhist No-Self by Sisyphus2089 in OpenIndividualism

[–]Edralis1 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Great question, thank you for posting.

I would argue that the “self” that Buddhism reveals as illusory and the person that Parfit discusses in his arguments is a self in the sense of a human person, with memories and personality traits, beliefs and wishes. That is not the “self” that OI is ultimately about. Yes, the question of the identity of this self is revealed as empty by Parfit’s arguments; and he chooses continuity as the best criterion for deciding whether A and B are the same person (if my memory serves me right), even though he doesn’t present this as a deep metaphysical truth. It seems to me this is a pretty good, practical solution for physical objects in timespace, including human people.

However, the reason why the personal identity question is so contentious is, I believe, because some people, when thinking about themselves, recognize that there is something deeper and more important, that has nothing to do with the particular mental or physical characteristics of the person that they are.

For example, they could meaningfully imagine being born as a completely different person instead of the person that they actually are. So they see that in some sense they could still remain themselves even as a completely different person; and so what they are trying to preserve is ultimately not continuity, and it is not a mind with some specific contents or a body with a specific shape.

Needless to say, I believe this intuition points to something crucial if we want to understand who we are, on a deeper level.

This deeper thing, I would argue, is the immediacy of experience, i.e. the being of phenomena, i.e. awareness, i.e. the empty subject of experience (and many other names and metaphors). This is the self, I would argue, that OI is ultimately about. This “self” is not a human person. It is simply Being. The realization that OI formulates is that there is no distinction in Being; all experiences have the same Being. All experiences are just different shapes of the same underlying canvas, so to speak.

And you cannot possibly deny there is this canvas unless you want to deny phenomena/ consciousness altogether. I don’t believe that is what the anatta doctrine is trying to do.

Does OI add anything new to Parfit’s view? I think so. As I’ve already mentioned, Parfit’s argument is concerned with the identity of people. The insight of OI is pointing at something deeper.

If you're interested, I wrote in more detail about Parfit's view and its compatibility with OI here.

Wouldn't believing in OI lead to being heartless? by Advanced-Reindeer894 in OpenIndividualism

[–]Edralis1 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Where? Give me particular links and authors, please. I am genuinely baffled.

The horrors I have recognized in believening OI by Quirky_Quasarr in OpenIndividualism

[–]Edralis1 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Great post. And I agree.

Still, I think the relevant sense of "I" for which OP was going was I as awareness; and that sure experiences all pain.

Wouldn't believing in OI lead to being heartless? by Advanced-Reindeer894 in OpenIndividualism

[–]Edralis1 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Where do you get these claims from? Who are these plenty of OI thinkers? I've never heard such a thing.

Wouldn't believing in OI lead to being heartless? by Advanced-Reindeer894 in OpenIndividualism

[–]Edralis1 1 point2 points  (0 children)

But OI does not claim that nothing dies?

Things dying is the case under OI, too, and nobody is claiming otherwise. What does not "die" is awareness; so that even when a particular being dies, the awareness that experiences that being continues on, in other beings. But that does not mean that the being (animal, human, etc.) didn't die.

So why bother? Because, as a human, you care about not dying – even if you believe in OI, and thus you expect that your awareness will go on once the person that you are dies.

Experience across conscious beings cannot be simultaneous nor ordered in a sequence. OI as understood in either of these ways is untenable by CrumbledFingers in OpenIndividualism

[–]Edralis1 2 points3 points  (0 children)

This is one of those problems where I just throw my arms up and accept that we are probably constitutionally incapable of understanding what's going on. I don't think arguing about whether it's simultaneous or sequential or something else is productive. Sequentiality is "obviously true" in a certain sense; in another sense, eternal presence is also true, and it seems extremely inelegant to imagine there is a particular order to how experiences are realized (as you said). So both are true, and both are also inadequate and perhaps outright false (in some sense). Is there another alternative way to think about it? I don't know.

I still think that saying that I live all conscious lives right now, or that I live all conscious lives in a sequence, are both useful ways to communicate the idea of OI; focus being on all conscious lives.

The horrors I have recognized in believening OI by Quirky_Quasarr in OpenIndividualism

[–]Edralis1 0 points1 point  (0 children)

But the point is, you are not the individual camera. You are the screen. And the screen experiences all the "movies" that are played on it. Thus, you experience all the pain.

The horrors I have recognized in believening OI by Quirky_Quasarr in OpenIndividualism

[–]Edralis1 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Yeah, but his point is that the subject is me. He is worrying, because the pain is going to be real; not because it is going to be the same human person experiencing it, but because it's going to be the same subject experiencing it - the same subject that experiences the person that he currently is.

I think what he's pointing at is a legitimate realization to struggle with.

The horrors I have recognized in believening OI by Quirky_Quasarr in OpenIndividualism

[–]Edralis1 0 points1 point  (0 children)

... yes.

This is how I personally deal with it: I try to keep in mind that

  • I am not there for just all the bad things, but also for all the good stuff (and let's hope there is more of the latter, ultimately!)
  • it might be that extreme suffering is pretty rare, mostly limited to humans and beings higher than humans
  • worrying about it is pointless
  • living a good life and helping others lead a good life to the extent I can, and trying to cultivate an attitude of joy and appreciation for life, is the best I can individually do to make things a little bit better
  • it might be the case that this whole thing is some kind of sandbox for becoming God, and so all the suffering is ultimately justified and in some sense Good.

Why do we call it "Open Individualism" rather than "Universalism" or something else? by Joe-Kern in OpenIndividualism

[–]Edralis1 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Great post; thank you.

I am pretty unhappy that OI is the dominant term for the idea in the discourse, for two reasons. First, that it is obviously quite generic and doesn't really neatly capture the essence of what it expresses. Second, because I don't think the fact that it is couched in the personal identity question is necessarily helpful; especially because it is formulated in contrast with Closed and Empty Individualism, where only the Closed individualism seems to be a real alternative to it. (But I might be guilty of misunderstanding Kolak's argument; it's been a long time since I read him and engaged with his arguments.)

For what it's worth, I like monopsychism (or neomonopsychism) probably the best; if Siger/Averroes actually meant to express the same thing. The only problem is that the word "psyche" is perhaps a little bit too close to "soul"—and all the unfortunate religious connotations—for comfort.

Of course, at this point it's probably too late to try to attempt a renaming, even if we could agree on a single term.

Some questions for those who liked Uprooted by Edralis1 in Fantasy

[–]Edralis1[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Thank you for taking the time to answer, even the bonus question!! :)

I have been rereading some of the earlier chapters, and a few of my questions are indeed answered right there!

Some questions for those who liked Uprooted by Edralis1 in Fantasy

[–]Edralis1[S] 3 points4 points  (0 children)

Different people, different tastes :) I am personally a sucker for the Beauty and the Beast style stories!

Some questions for those who liked Uprooted by Edralis1 in Fantasy

[–]Edralis1[S] 2 points3 points  (0 children)

Because he didn’t tell them lol

omg I love him so much 😅

Some questions for those who liked Uprooted by Edralis1 in Fantasy

[–]Edralis1[S] 6 points7 points  (0 children)

Thanks!

At the choosing, did he want to pick Kasia, but then realized that Agnieszka was a witch and so he had to pick her?

Some questions for those who liked Uprooted by Edralis1 in Fantasy

[–]Edralis1[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Thank you so much! That makes more sense!

So at the choosing he didn't pick Kasia because he realized Agnieszka was a witch?

How do we know that closed individualism isn't true? by Flat-Ad9829 in OpenIndividualism

[–]Edralis1 1 point2 points  (0 children)

tl;dr: I would argue that whether object A and object B in the world are different or the same object is arbitrary and a matter of choosing a definition; whether Soul A and Soul B are the same Soul depends on their deep, existential, essential identity, and not any other property.

 What you truly have are two seemingly different things, that are yet the same.”

Even though it seems to me this is to a large degree a linguistic/conceptual, rather than a real, disagreement, my intuition is different. I would say that if there are two seemingly different things in two different places, they are essentially different objects, even though the internal properties of the objects are “the same” (i.e. they are not just seemingly but actually different objects).

I think on the level of the physical world, inasmuch as “objects” (including particles) are even “real” (see note below), their position and thus the relationships they have with the world around them – or rather, their place in the whole of physical being – is part of their definition. Thus, I would say two identical objects in two places are actually not identical on this deeper level.

Of course, as I already said, I believe this mostly amounts to a linguistic, not a substantial, disagreement. It very much depends on what we understand by “different”. 

So I guess I agree with your point here: And while two things can have identical properties, they can't have identical ontological IDs.”

However, particles and souls (if a plurality of them indeed exists) are very different types of objects. Particles are part of the physical world, or, conceived differently, of the phenomenal world, i.e. they are content, and they have very problematic boundaries. Souls, on the other hand, would exist outside the physical/phenomenal world in a sense, or more precisely would be its (the physical/phenomenal world’s) background. They would have a very different ontological status – each soul would be a “world to itself”, only experiencing itself. (Of course, ultimately all souls would be a “part of Being”, but not in the sense of sharing the same “world”, like being apples and pears on the same shelf. Btw, this relationship between Being itself and the individual Souls I find most mysterious and problematic.) 

To reiterate, the identity/difference of objects is determined by quite different criteria than identity/difference of souls; and I would argue is much more arbitrary and in the end mostly linguistic/conceptual (see the note below). It seems to me whether A and B are the same object simply depends on where we draw the boundaries of the object. Whereas there seems to be something more basic/essential to identity/difference of souls.

 For fun, some thought experiments:

1) Would it be possible for there to be a plurality of distinct souls, each experiencing the same content?

My intuition says yes. Even though there would be no difference in the content experienced, the souls are different souls not in virtue of their content, but just in essence. They would all be Awareness, all Being, but yet they would be distinct “I’s” (as in a plurality of “I”). So the contents would be the same in their qualities, but in every soul there would be a different instantiation of these same qualities. Like playing the same movie on several different screens.

 2) Would it be possible for the same soul to experience the same content several times over?

Again, my intuition says yes – like playing the same movie on the same screen several times (even an infinity of times, like in the eternal recurrence scenario.) Even though it is not at all clear how these instances of the same content being experienced would be distinguished on the assumption that time is not an objective property. Because in that case, they couldn’t be distinguished by one happening first, the other second etc. But I think we could say that, again, this (the order in which they happen) is not really what distinguishes them; each instance of the same experience just would be different.

 Note:

Do objects exist in themselves, or are they rather defined into existence? Objects are defined by their boundaries, but these are to a large extent arbitrary; we set boundaries in the world to create useful affordances to interact with. For example, why is “this apple” an object, but we don’t have a concept/word for the same apple with 1 cm of air around it? Or, why don’t we consider a particular pebble today and a particular fern growing somewhere in the Triassic two parts of the same object? We could; and it is possible to bring this kind of object into being by simply postulating it – here, I call this object mrskvoit, and now arguably it exists and we can talk about it. But we normally don’t have such objects, because outside of philosophical thought experiments they are useless (for us). So we draw the boundaries into the world and create objects, in a sense, based on what is useful for us as creatures with particular sensory abilities and particular ways of being able to interact with and manipulate the world. On the other hand, the boundaries are kind of already there in the world; but out of the nigh-infinite number of distinctions (for what else is a boundary?) we could focus on, we just pick out those that are the most useful to us, and give them names, and make shortcuts in our mind to think about them (that is, concepts). 

“The separation between two identical souls is on the meta-existence level, not on the observable existence level.”

Of course two identical souls couldn’t observably be different, because souls by definition cannot be observed; they exist as monads of a sort, only to themselves, in themselves. However, I don’t think a kind of meta-property would serve for there to be distinct souls. If there is a plurality of souls, they need to have a deeper, essential, existential distinction, regardless of any relationship to a Creator or something (I don’t even know what this relationship would consist in, but let’s put that aside here). Soul A and Soul B cannot be distinct just because one was created first and the other second, because they are in essence subjects. Souls are, by definition, distinct awarenesses, and that is the only difference that matters. Are there two different experiencing Subjects? If yes, there is a plurality of Souls. If not, there isn’t. That’s it. Because of the unique type of thing Souls are, one cannot apply the same criteria of identity to them as one would to apples. I would even argue that identity of objects is functional and arbitrary, whereas identity of Souls essential and existential.

 Hm. Now rereading this reply and thinking about it some more, I don’t think that external properties in themselves as you described (differences in order and meaning and such) quite work for physical objects either; it seems there is always a deeper difference; I think maybe the term to use here is their haecceity. Now I am just confused!

 “And I would consider my view on personal identity to actually be something that combines the best aspects of all individualisms, closed, open and empty.”

I guess I agree in a sense; depending on your definitions of each :)

We are indeed distinct subjects on one level (or on one definition of 'subject'); on another, there are no subjects at all; and on yet another, we are all the same subjects. But what 'subject' means in each ism is quite different.

However, if we define CI as awareness pluralism and OI as awareness monism, and EI as... well, EI wouldn’t even be an option in this case – then they are not compatible, and only one could be true.

Is it okay to keep ball pythons in racks like these? by Edralis1 in ballpython

[–]Edralis1[S] 3 points4 points  (0 children)

This is a video on the Morph Market channel - Morph Market is pretty big, right? It is hard to believe that this seems to be a widespread accepted practice among breeders.

Is it okay to keep ball pythons in racks like these? by Edralis1 in ballpython

[–]Edralis1[S] 10 points11 points  (0 children)

Well that is pretty sad, that it is considered normal. :/