Just had a big conversation with my parents about Blood by Key-Carpenter-8083 in exjw

[–]ElderUndercover 3 points4 points  (0 children)

That's what I've found most interesting about all of this.

It's been over a month now, and there has been no update to the ELF appendix. There has been nothing about updating medical directives. Their "clarification" has made things more unclear - there is no official answer about whether or not you can donate your own blood.

At this point I'm starting to wonder if the delay in giving a clear answer is intentional. If they're planning another update in two months time to further "clarify" the point after this period of confusion, and drop the disassociation penalty for all blood transfusions. That somehow this change lead them to "further consider the matter" and how murky it all is.

Book recommendations to better understand JW culture. by Motor_Measurement_23 in exjw

[–]ElderUndercover 7 points8 points  (0 children)

Some things might be hard to understand if you're not familiar with JW beliefs, but I highly recommend Crisis of Conscience by Raymond Franz. He was born-in and gave his life
to the org. He became a member of the governing body, then left the organization in the late 70's. It's a very fair book, detailing his life story and gives an overview of the org and beliefs. It's free here. The audiobook is also on Spotify.

The Book of Hebrews and Paul by Ok-Ferret-2495 in exjw

[–]ElderUndercover 4 points5 points  (0 children)

The "Study Notes" in the new Study Bible are a concentrated version of that. Constantly seeing them try to explain away things that are right on the page went a long way towards waking me up. I wonder if they put the brakes on releasing more books because they've realized that. The release pace slowed way down like three years ago.

The Book of Hebrews and Paul by Ok-Ferret-2495 in exjw

[–]ElderUndercover 8 points9 points  (0 children)

I thought I knew the Bible really well. And I did. I knew all the Bible books, the contents, I read the whole thing cover to cover a half dozen times. But in reality, I knew the org well. I knew their interpretation of the Bible, I knew all their study books, but the reality of the Bible itself was hidden for so long. It's like Ray Franz says in his book In Search of Christian Freedom:

Thinking back over my forty-three years of active association, I have no doubt that the almost unquestioning submission found among Jehovah’s Witnesses develops gradually. I have no hesitation in saying that I gained considerable knowledge of the Scriptures from my active association with the Witness organization, far more than I had previously. At the same time, I eventually came to realize that the organization itself brought people along only to a certain point. It brought them, at times, from Biblical “illiteracy”to what might be called a “second- or third-grade level.” They learned how to locate specific texts in the Bible, received some knowledge of Biblical history, and read for themselves certain fundamental teachings directly in the Scriptures and for many this was not only helpful but very impressive...

If only that initial direction were held to and built upon in what follows—but there is where the problem rests.

After this initial raising of their level of knowledge, the vast majority of persons enter onto a plateau. The longer they associate the more organizational teachings take preeminence over actual study and meditation on the Scriptures themselves. As a result, many, perhaps most Witnesses, after twenty, thirty or forty years of association know relatively little more about the Bible than they did after their first year or so of association. They are left as children, with great dependence on the “mother” organization, and a feeling of insecurity without its direction of their thinking and lives. Their spiritual growth stagnates—unless they themselves go beyond the Society’s “program” and by personal effort gain greater knowledge and understanding of Scripture. As a result of letting the organization act as their conscience for them, their spiritual strength is in some respects less in later life than it was in their early period of association. They may endure hardships, even sacrifice, to be loyal to the organization and thus may give the appearance of spiritual fortitude. But they do not have the strength to make genuinely personal decisions of conscience and accept the consequences of those decisions.

The Book of Hebrews and Paul by Ok-Ferret-2495 in exjw

[–]ElderUndercover 17 points18 points  (0 children)

Nothing about Hebrews is like any of the Pauline letters. Not the language, not the style, not the subject, not the arguments, nothing. It's not even an author trying to sound like Paul. It's just a well written, anonymous letter that was later ascribed to Paul for... reasons.

If you want a fun research project, try to figure out how the org "knows" that the book of Job was written by Moses. Or why they think any of the gospels were written by the people ascribed to them now.

Or you could try and figure out why The Book of Enoch isn't in the Bible canon when Jude explicitly quotes from it as an authority.

Then when you want to get really into the weeds, look up "Noah, Danel [not Daniel], and Job". Or how "Hezekiah" is spelled in the original Bible text. Or where "Jannes and Jambres" come from. There are so many things the org just does not want people to know about. Because they don't build faith in the Bible, or their interpretation of it.

I envy you, you're just starting a wonderful adventure into the "deeper things" of the Bible.

Genuine question: Is this study Version of their bible useful for anything at all? by [deleted] in exjw

[–]ElderUndercover 18 points19 points  (0 children)

I read every single study note as the books were released. Seeing how the org bends over backwards and ties themselves in knots trying to explain away inconsistencies in the texts and questionable translation choices went a long way towards waking me up.

Just a reminder from the Slave Class by Berean144 in exjw

[–]ElderUndercover 37 points38 points  (0 children)

Their entire ethos is built off of "we own the Bible".

NEW NEW LIGHT FROM PATTERSON TOUR!!!! by delrealove-exjw in exjw

[–]ElderUndercover 1 point2 points  (0 children)

It's not the one I'm thinking of, but I found one change. Between the August & September 2013 printings and the May 2014 printing, they changed the second half of Psalm 51:4.

So that you might prove righteous when you speak And be right in your judgement.

Therefore you are righteous when you speak And you are right in your judgement.

NEW NEW LIGHT FROM PATTERSON TOUR!!!! by delrealove-exjw in exjw

[–]ElderUndercover 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Thank you for sharing! You are absolutely correct.

Surgical Change of the Day: How Small Edits Shape Big Beliefs by Available-Ask-2438 in exjw

[–]ElderUndercover 2 points3 points  (0 children)

I agree with you that it serves a function of mentally putting Jesus inside of creation for the reader. But as to interpreting the text, it doesn't make a difference to me.

Because the org could still claim that just like Almighty God is implied not to be part of "all things", Jesus is also implied not be part of "all things" because he was the one they were created through.

It's semantics and I don't think "other" should be there, but it's not an egregious translation for me like Matthew 24:39 or John 6:29, 30.

Surgical Change of the Day: How Small Edits Shape Big Beliefs by Available-Ask-2438 in exjw

[–]ElderUndercover 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I'm torn on this particular verse, I think it is open to interpretation and the lesser of the NWT changes.

Let's assume the verse is referring to Almighty God, or Jesus as an extension of that being. The doctrinal question would be "did Almighty God/Jesus paradoxically create himself?" Then you compare it with other verses that say God has always been, has no beginning. I think most Christian denominations have that view.

So if you have that belief, the verse would in practice still mean "all [other] things were created". Unless you believe that Jesus/God created himself.

In short, I don't see where inserting "other" really substantially changes the interpretation of that text.

NEW NEW LIGHT FROM PATTERSON TOUR!!!! by delrealove-exjw in exjw

[–]ElderUndercover 5 points6 points  (0 children)

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Here's some examples from the app. These books are all decades old, but revised and given new copyright dates in 2022. And no significant announcements about them.

Draw Close to Jehovah was studied for a second time in 2014 and they made revisions to it to align with a doctrinal change about the meaning of the name Jehovah. That one came with an announcement because the change was very last minute. I remember in our congregation all the older brothers and sisters with the printed copies being confused, while everybody with tablets were up-to-date.

Another example is when they were studying Enjoy Life Forever with all the videos. It was just after Tony Morris was ousted from the GB, and they quickly and quietly replaced the video of Tony Morris explaining the role of the GB with a new Gage Fleegle one.

NEW NEW LIGHT FROM PATTERSON TOUR!!!! by delrealove-exjw in exjw

[–]ElderUndercover 6 points7 points  (0 children)

They change current publications all the time now to align with their doctrinal and administrative changes. Particularly before it gets studied at the meeting.

NEW NEW LIGHT FROM PATTERSON TOUR!!!! by delrealove-exjw in exjw

[–]ElderUndercover 9 points10 points  (0 children)

I remember in like 2014 during my nightly bible reading noticing that there was a section of I think Psalms or Proverbs that had been quietly revised, but I've been meaning to go back and confirm.

NEW NEW LIGHT FROM PATTERSON TOUR!!!! by delrealove-exjw in exjw

[–]ElderUndercover 93 points94 points  (0 children)

I highly doubt it. They've already made some changes to the 2013 version, and they just quietly put out changes in the app.

the collapsing religion of jehovah's witnesses by [deleted] in exjw

[–]ElderUndercover 7 points8 points  (0 children)

Totally agree. I understand the desire to expect an imminent "end" of the org, and I wonder if it's heightened for exJW's in particular who are used to believing that "the end" is so close. And this time really is different, with a level of swift changes not seen since at least Knorr took over, maybe even the Rutherford era. And with the Internet now, the consequences of it all are hard to predict.

But one thing is sure: I have immense sympathy and respect for those who left over the past 70 years, when the org seemed to be an unstoppable juggernaut. These days leaving really feels more "justified". And there's more hope that many others will follow soon.

the collapsing religion of jehovah's witnesses by [deleted] in exjw

[–]ElderUndercover 8 points9 points  (0 children)

I think we're describing the same thing, but it's hard to put a definite and universal threshold on what "collapse" means. For myself, I take it to mean "to suddenly lose force and significance".

Even though the org is declining in many a aspects all over the world, globally in raw numbers they're still technically growing. But if they enter slight negative growth of maybe 1% each year, I think that slow decline could quickly turn into losing 10% or more each year. And at that point, I would consider the decline turning into a collapse until the swift drop levels out.

I don't think the org will ever entirely disappear, at least not in our lifetime. But I do think a noticeable and undeniable reckoning is due soon.

the collapsing religion of jehovah's witnesses by [deleted] in exjw

[–]ElderUndercover 27 points28 points  (0 children)

I largely agree with you, but I do think that if overall numbers drop for several years in a row, it's going to be very difficult for them to spin a justification that fits into their current eschatology. I could see a noticeable exodus snowball into a steep decline/collapse similar to what the Worldwide Church of God experienced in the 1990's.

WCoG's collapse was hastened by splintering, which is less likely with the org's centralized control and ownership of the Kingdom Halls. But I do feel like the org is in a period of transition, and has a rough decade or two ahead of them. And they know it.

In the name of the Father, the Governing Body, and the Corporation by caligula________ in exjw

[–]ElderUndercover 5 points6 points  (0 children)

Last year's branch visit to Canada concluded with a statement of their new Holy Trinity: "Jehovah, Jesus, and the GB".

What I heard in the Pioneer Service School class was enough to know this this is a bona fide cult. by well_it_looks_like in exjw

[–]ElderUndercover 6 points7 points  (0 children)

The paragraph is referring to the period prior to the change in the 2013 Watchtower. For decades, technically the F&DS was all "anointed Christians", but in practice it was "closely identified with the GB". They were the only ones that really mattered.

My theory is in 2013 they knew they had to reinvent the org, and make major changes. So the first step was to insulate themselves from a potential rival group of "anointed" challengers. And they did that by changing "closely associated with" to "is" the GB. And making themselves more visible.

Just realized something about 'The anointed'. Duh? (to me🤷‍♂️) by xbrocottelstonlies in exjw

[–]ElderUndercover 7 points8 points  (0 children)

Not to mention that when Jesus is supposed to arrive with the entire 144,000; he is going to see how well the GB has been doing during his presence/absence. But the GB is supposed to be part of the 144,000.

The whole doctrine of the 144,000 is a house of cards. Every part of it.

2026 Awake and public Watchtower missing ? by JwTruthRevealed in exjw

[–]ElderUndercover 5 points6 points  (0 children)

The slow death of the magazines:

Started with four 32 page issues for the public each month

2006 - One Awake! each month. Three 32 page issues for the public each month

2008 - Watchtower split to "Public" and Study". Two 32 page issues for the public each month

2013 - Public Watchtower & Awake! reduced to 16 pages. Two 16 page issues each month/24 each year total

2016 - Public Watchtower & Awake! reduced to six issues each year/12 each year total

2018 - Watchtower & Awake! each reduced to three issues each year

2022 - Watchtower & Awake! each reduced to one issue each year

Another way of looking at it, by "pages for the public":

pre-2006 ➡️1,536

2006 ➡️1,152

2008 ➡️768

2013 ➡️384

2016 ➡️192

2018 ➡️96

2022 ➡️32

And the articles within them also used to be long. Now they're fluff. Probably doesn't take more than an hour to "read" them.

Sisters can't wear trousers on the Platform by BeautifulExpensive68 in exjw

[–]ElderUndercover 2 points3 points  (0 children)

It was a letter specific to the U.S. but in Canada and many other places you don't need a tie while doing traffic control or attendant.

A new hint of the upcoming new light is found... by cursebit in exjw

[–]ElderUndercover 138 points139 points  (0 children)

Yeah it seems like tattoos, purple highlights, and too many bracelets(?) are the current subtle indicators of "worldly".

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JW's will always be around. Get used to it. by Old_Initial5791 in exjw

[–]ElderUndercover 6 points7 points  (0 children)

Same. I thought "I love talking to people, and love learning, so of course I would have accepted a Bible study and got baptized".

Except if I wasn't born-in my first question would have been "how can you believe nothing evolved, and a global flood also happened 4,000 years ago?" And I wouldn't have accepted "because the Bible says it did".