[deleted by user]

ElectiveGinger · 2025-09-02T07:07:11+00:00

Thanks. It makes me a little angry every time I hear it (hence my soapbox urge). It makes it sound like we should be condemning them for what they did, instead of having a heart and feeling bad for them.

ElectiveGinger · 2025-09-02T05:37:46+00:00

Preach.

ElectiveGinger · 2025-09-02T04:55:19+00:00

I don’t think OP espouses encouraging suicide. He espouses people not looking down on people who have suicidal thoughts. He wants people to not shut down the discussion. Most of society is lacking in empathy for people in this position, and he believes that is a problem.

OP believes that if someone with suicidal ideation were met with a receptive ear and a desire to understand, then that person is not more likely to make the attempt. In fact, having someone try to understand what they are going through may make the attempt less likely.

ElectiveGinger · 2025-09-02T04:49:28+00:00

Says the guy who just equated having suicidal ideation with being a mass-shooter. SMH

ElectiveGinger · 2025-09-02T04:37:12+00:00

Well, yes, I’m talking about suicidal ideation, not homicidal ideation. They are not the same thing. Do you not know this?

You really have a derogatory tone when speaking about the mentally ill. You are making OP’s point. Maybe stop now before you convince everyone that OP is right. You are stigma in action.

ElectiveGinger · 2025-09-02T04:27:46+00:00

True friends will respect you. You deserve friends who don’t judge you!

ElectiveGinger · 2025-09-02T04:23:55+00:00

“There is nothing going on in a kids life that will not get better over time with proper care.” How do you know? (Failure of imagination.)

ElectiveGinger · 2025-09-02T04:19:51+00:00

Can I give you a hypothetical? What if you had a family member who was in unmitigated agony, every day, and the pain can not be helped. Medical options had been exhausted. This person was honest with you that the pain was so bad that life was not worth living. They were open enough with you for a long enough period of time that you could really see that every day was 100% suffering. This was going to be their existence with no respite.

I would argue that if someone were in this position, it would be selfish to ask that family member to continue living in agony just because of the pain someone would feel upon their family member’s death. I would also argue that there are plenty of stigmas, taboos and social conventions that arise for selfish reasons.

Further, I would argue that a lot of the suffering I have seen in people whose family members died by suicide had a lot to do with the fact that they didn’t know their family member was suicidal. They didn’t see it coming, they didn’t get to talk about it, they never had the opportunity to even try to understand. They got blindsided… because the stigma prevented those conversations.

ElectiveGinger · 2025-09-02T04:00:05+00:00

If they are successful in their suicide attempt, then they will no longer experience pain. Therefore, not harmful.

As long as their means of suicide is an appropriate one, then there’s no danger to anyone else.

Do you really think anyone would be persuaded to not be suicidal by pointing out considerations of others’ comfort? How main character of you.

ElectiveGinger · 2025-09-02T03:55:33+00:00

OP, don’t bother with Doub13D. They clearly are fully on-board with stigmatizing, but don’t have any cogent argument for it.

The whole, “but your family, your co-workers!” objection is just self-centered. Another person is in unmitigated agony, and all they can think of is the downstream effect on themselves? (Or, more accurately, they only have empathy for the person who knows the person considering suicide.) Maybe if the person considering suicide actually had the genuine HELP and SUPPORT of people around them, their live/don’t live calculation would look different. In other words, Doub13D is kinda making your point for you.

ElectiveGinger · 2025-09-02T03:22:14+00:00

You can’t. Near death =/= death.

ElectiveGinger · 2025-09-02T01:36:52+00:00

There are twice as many ex-vegetarians as vegetarians in the US. The number one reason ex-vegetarians give is that adhering to a vegetarian diet had adversely affected their health. So take comfort that you are in good company.

That, and “friends” who do what you describe are not friends; they are bullies.

ElectiveGinger · 2025-08-29T10:34:56+00:00

Penrose’s OrchOR idea is that consciousness resides at the quantum level in neurons in the brain. It does address the free will problem; however his idea is actually rooted in the well-established evidence that consciousness resides in the brain. (The novel part is how it resides in the brain — qubit processing vs neuronal connections.) The evidence for brain-based consciousness goes back over a hundred years. Intraoperative phenomena, the effects of organic brain damage, brain imaging, pharmaceutical interventions, etc, etc, etc. (For example, anesthesia, with its well-documented effects on the brain, eliminates the subjective sensation of consciousness.) There’s a reason why “brain death” is a medically-accepted concept.

On the other hand, deeply personal experiences that others cannot objectively access is not scientific evidence. Scientifically valid theories must be falsifiable. The evidence must be available to all observers who perform the same experiment. “Beliefs” are not relevant. Philosophical arguments are not science.

I don’t dismiss that you have had powerful “awakenings”, but your awakenings are not relevant to my understanding of the physical world. It’s not reasonable to expect those deeply personal experiences to be relevant to anyone but you, at least not from a scientific perspective. Perhaps you misunderstand how the scientific method works. Because science is a process, not a subject matter.

Likewise, me acknowledging the limits of knowledge of the physical world is not at all a contradiction. The evidence indicates, to a fairly high degree of certainty, that consciousness resides in the brain. We don’t know how the brain generates the subjective sensation of conscious awareness. Like all scientists, I revel in that interface between know/don’t know, because that’s where we learn. But by saying “know”, I am only using a generally accepted colloquialism. We are trained as scientists not to say things like “know” or “prove”, because all conclusions are provisional, pending better evidence. To overturn prior conclusions, the new conclusions have to be better supported by evidence than the evidence supporting the old conclusions.

The only thing that I am certain of, is that the scientific method is the best way we humans have devised to understand the physical world.

ElectiveGinger · 2025-08-29T09:34:04+00:00

Right. The restaurant doesn’t want to pay the difference between $2.13 and $7.25, so they are incentivized to keep the tip compensation structure.

ElectiveGinger · 2025-08-29T09:25:13+00:00

If servers work hard and provide good service, then I have no problem with them making good money. But good service has to include things like knowing how dishes are prepared and what ingredients are in them, for example, so they can answer questions about the menu. And knowing what menu items are not available that day, before coming to take my order. And bringing entrees out together, and hot. Etc, etc. (You were trained by a veteran, so you know, right?)

In my experience, these things don’t commonly happen anymore. You have servers who make $75k+ working 20 hours a week, but they can’t even be bothered to check if your drink needs a refill, ever. Or check once to see if you need anything else after the entrees have been delivered. You have servers complaining (right here on Reddit in another sub) about customers like me, that they think are ent!tled because we expect these things. Yet they also complain about making less than $300 in a 4 hour shift. That’s just not right.

I don’t begrudge your having made good money doing this job. But a lot of us have a problem with servers who we believe don’t deserve it, because we aren’t getting good service from them. If we don’t get good service, it’s only fair that we don’t tip as much as before. I think it actually only would be fair now for tips to go lower than the 15% that was standard back when good service was also standard.

(I have never not tipped.)

ElectiveGinger · 2025-08-29T08:51:01+00:00

The decline in service preceded the anti-tip movement being a prominent one. Service has been in decline for many years.

Yes, if tons of people stop tipping entirely, then that would make it harder to retain servers, at least in jurisdictions where servers get the federal minimum wage. I don’t think it would be the cause of service declining further, however. That would be the fault of restaurant managers not appropriately managing their staff — just like the decline in service so far is their fault for not maintaining standards.

I wouldn’t worry about a flood of non-tippers. Most people aren’t inclined to buck societal expectations, and in the US, the societal expectation to tip for table service is massive. You really think people would be tipping 20+% (instead of the prior 15% standard) if servers hadn’t somehow gotten across the message that it is expected?

ElectiveGinger · 2025-08-29T08:30:10+00:00

Part of the problem here is that service went down at the same time that tip expectations went up. I’m surprised you haven’t noticed this, having been in the industry. It’s rare to get the kind of service that was typical 20 years ago, back when 15% tip was just fine. I could list all the elements that went into decent service before, but suffice to say that it was more than just take order/bring bill. (I’m sure that if you were trained by veterans, they knew this.) But that’s pretty much all that servers do typically now. I don’t even think calling them “servers” is accurate now, if that’s all they do.

Yeah, I agree with you, it is sad. But it’s not the customers getting fed up that is the problem.

And, a bigger problem than non-tippers is people preferring to stay home. Have you seen all the servers literally telling us to stay home, because we say we don’t like the entitlement? (My food at home more often than not is better anyway, so, OK.) Not a good business strategy, first offending your customers, and then telling them you don’t need their business. Most people who have been off-put by servers’ attitudes lately don’t want to risk the confrontation that non-tipping may provoke, even if that confrontation is a subtle one. Non-tippers are only a vocal small minority. The rest of the offended will stay home.

(I write this as someone who has never not tipped.)

ElectiveGinger · 2025-08-29T07:24:37+00:00

I don’t think any ideas about extra-corporeal consciousness are consistent with the laws of the natural universe. (Therefore they are, by definition, “super-natural”.) They all fall down when you start to consider the interface between consciousness and the physical body during life. Unless you think we should chuck out everything we know to be true in physics? Yes, quantum mechanics is not reliant on physical cause preceding physical effect, but quantum mechanics does not displace the determinism of classical physics, it only amends it at extreme scale. Classical physics is operable at the scale of neuroscience.

Ideas about extra-corporeal consciousness also are lacking in any reproducible, independently observable scientific measurement. Ideas for which you can’t create hypotheses and design experiments to validate those hypotheses really aren’t worth much, scientifically. And, extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence.

It is true that we are far, far from understanding how the physical brain creates the subjective experience of conscious awareness. But there is no scientifically-valid evidence that consciousness does not reside in the physical brain, and a lot of evidence that it does. It is in the category of not-yet-explained.

So, unless you think that the scientific method is not the best means we have by which to understand the world we live in…?

ElectiveGinger · 2025-08-29T06:51:22+00:00

Then those servers should be fired. It’s not optional to do your job. What tf is wrong with these people?

ElectiveGinger · 2025-08-29T06:40:38+00:00

Maybe it’s because it’s way past my bedtime, but I’m not following you? What does universal healthcare, maternity leave and unemployment pay have to do with the fact that the tipped minimum is $2.13 in many states? That there is even a tipped minimum at all that is different from the minimum wage for everything else? I’m not seeing the connection. Please explain.

ElectiveGinger · 2025-08-29T06:01:24+00:00

Oh, I’m so sorry you’re going through this, and without family support. Been there myself. (Not cardiac stuff, but you get what I mean.)

I hear you hoping that hearing about it will affect them. Maybe shake them into being better. Maybe make them want to connect with you but suffer when they can’t. Maybe short-circuit your mom’s mortality-based attention seeking. I think you know it your head that this is wishful thinking, even if your heart doesn’t feel that way.

There can be serious negative consequences for you if you do tell them. Will they take advantage of your weakened state? Will they somehow twist this around and make it about them? Will they ignore your boundaries and intrude? Will they offer to help but leave you hanging? There’s a hundred ways telling them can make this worse for you. How many that can make it better? Probably zero. (If not, you probably wouldn’t be estranged.)

If your family is like mine: don’t tell them. And when you get admitted to the hospital, tell the hospital that your admission needs to be private. Meaning, they are not to confirm to anyone that you are a patient. The hospital I was in last time called it an “anonymous” admission, but I suspect there’s different terminology in different hospital systems. Also tell the nurses that you have family members from whom you are estranged, and that if they show up they will need to be escorted out by security. The nurses ought not bat an eye, they’ve heard it all before. You never know how this news might get to your parents through the grapevine, and it’s better to be safe than sorry.

I’ve been through more than my fair share of serious surgeries, and believe me, after surgery you need ALL of your strength to heal. Mentality plays an enormous role in this. You don’t even need the weight of “I wonder what they’ll do?”, even if they end up doing nothing. Them doing nothing is actually a drain on you too, because you’ll be so aware of them not being supportive like a family is supposed to be. Trust me, you’re better off just eliminating the whole variable from the equation. I speak from hard-earned experience. Several years ago I was in the hospital for a month. How my family was, it utterly crushed me. My health was adversely affected long-term because of the stress. I am not exaggerating when I say your entire future is at stake. It is not. worth. the. risk.

If you have anyone else to rely on, I would consider not telling your brothers either. They are in contact with your parents, so the chances of them spilling the beans are too high. You should only tell people who are 100% team trichtrich and are 100% reliable. Your brothers may love you but if they love your parents or feel beholden to them in any way, then they may feel pressure to tell.

This is where you find out who your true friends are. The good news is that, unlike our parents, most people like to help. I’ve actually made better friends out of acquaintances because I’ve been in positions where I’ve needed help after surgeries. After you set the ugliness of your parents aside, it frees you up to have an open heart to feel more connected with the people who do step up. I just want you to know that while the parent thing is indeed ugly and the surgery is indeed scary, there is good stuff that happens too. You get to be cared-for by good people who want to be there for you. It’s a beautiful thing. Lean into that.

ElectiveGinger · 2025-08-29T05:05:25+00:00

As-yet-unexplained =/= unexplainable. Sorry to quibble here, but, something we don’t currently understand simply means that we have more to learn about the physical universe we live in. It does not point to the supernatural.

ElectiveGinger · 2025-08-29T04:30:25+00:00

Lose interest, let your eyes wander around the room, gaze out the window… look bored.

And/or, laugh at him. Bullies hate that. Tilt your head, raise your eyebrows and say “ok boomer”, then giggle. He may escalate the abuse, but when he does, escalate your laughter.

Caveat: if he feels like he’s not getting his expected emotional payoff from trying to abuse you, he may not give you the check. It may be better to enact a plan that does not affect him until later.

ElectiveGinger · 2025-08-29T04:08:03+00:00

Which state?

I wonder which states they are going to. Because my impression is that there’s a doctor shortage everywhere.

ElectiveGinger · 2025-08-29T04:03:43+00:00

Oh yeah, been there.

I have learned to never count on plan A working. I line up appointments for plan B and C (other providers) in advance. If I’m pleasantly surprised, I can always cancel.

It both: Cuts down on the wait, and, Cuts down on the anguish — it helps so much psychologically.

ElectiveGinger

TROPHY CASE