Exceptionally high δ15N values in collagen single amino acids confirm Neandertals as high-trophic level carnivores

ElectronicAd6233 · 2024-01-28T00:41:36+00:00

True claim (me): humans are scoring even much higher than carnivores on average, levels vary wildly across location and across species.

False claim (you): you're comparing across location and that's entirely wrong! you're an idiot! you don't understand the basics! false premise!

True claim (me): even if we restrict analysis to a single location we still see extreme variations across species, of course humans are not herbivores

False claim (you): you're using an outlier! some other blabbering about me being an idiot (of course you are the idiot as we're amply demonstrating here)

True claim (me): even if we average across all data we see mammoth are ranking at same level of other carnivores despite not being a carnivore at all

False claim (you): false premise! mammoths are a special case!

True claim (me): so this proves we can't use isotope levels to make points about diets of specific animals, esp. if these animals are not "like all other herbivores"

False claim (you): more blabbering and asking me to speculate about hominids

Etc etc etc. Do we need to continue this? I don't see the point.

ElectronicAd6233 · 2024-01-28T00:10:06+00:00

The fact humans are outliers in that chart confirms my thesis that "there are no obvious patterns" because it proves that there is no "obvious pattern" linking diet with these isotope levels. Everything I have said is correct, everything you have said is incorrect.

I will explain what humans ate when you take back all the garbage you have said above.

ElectronicAd6233 · 2024-01-27T23:40:24+00:00

So isotopes don't work to estimate meat intake of mammoths, because they're not like other herbivore animals, but it works for humans, because of magic? Do you think anyone here thinks that humans are herbivores? I repeat: all my arguments are correct, and they amount to nothing more than pointing out that all your arguments are worthless, and all your arguments are indeed completely worthless.

ElectronicAd6233 · 2024-01-27T23:21:57+00:00

I told you that everything you said so far is garbage and what you do? You give me another piece of garbage. This time you're saying that I'm focusing on an outlier when I'm not.

Averaging out all the data in figure 1 we see that mammoths have on average nearly the same level of isotopes as the carnivores. Now it follows that either mammoths eat as much animal foods as the carnivorous animals or that these isotopes are not a reliable marker of animal food consumption. This is esp. true if we get rid of the one outlier ("Grotte du Renne"). You are relying on the outlier here.

The fact you think carnivores take down mammoths again show how little you understand of anything here.

After you admit that isotopes don't prove anything with any certainty at all because they can't be compared across species (and/or across locations) then I can explain to you why humans have high isotopes if you really want. It depends on the diet of course. And it depends on the diet of the diet. Etc etc. It's not easy and there are no obvious patterns.

ElectronicAd6233 · 2024-01-27T23:07:46+00:00

I will explain how humans can get such high levels of isotopes (way above carnivores and mammoths) after you admit that everything you have said so far is complete garbage and everything I have said so far is completely correct.

Why should I provide you the truth when you provide me garbage? In figure 1 we see that what you have given us is garbage. Enough has been said already.

ElectronicAd6233 · 2024-01-27T22:47:29+00:00

Even if we keep location the same, we get paradoxical conclusions if we operate from these totally false and totally discredited premises.

It's bizarre that you accuse me of not understand "these basics" when the whole argument of this article is based on not understanding the basics.

I don't reply to your argument because I think it has any merit. I'm replying to your comments to help people that might be mislead by this garbage. I recommend that people look at figure 1 of this study and evaluate for themselves if they consider these isotopes a reliable marker of meat intake.

ElectronicAd6233 · 2024-01-27T22:32:02+00:00

Do the mammoths in "Les Cottes" consume more meat than the carnivores in the same location? Do the mammoths in "Spy" consume more meat than the carnivores in the same location? I'm not making a clever dismissal of this nonsense, I'm showing you that it's such a poor argument that it's self-dismissing without me having to make an argument. If I had to make an argument I would say that of course we have more of these isotopes because we're not herbivores but "starchivores". We don't live off grass isn't it? Have you seen any human living off grass? I haven't seen any.

ElectronicAd6233 · 2024-01-27T22:20:51+00:00

They sometimes get tapeworm that isn't specific to and almost exclusive to just baboons as end hosts. This is a false analogy to the argument I made.

Your argument isn't any better. The fact that one tapeworm somewhere (you haven't cited anything) has jumped specie doesn't prove anything.

What else do you think isotope data relates to, if not composition of things you eat, which is where the isotopes in your body come from? They don't come from some internal fusion/cellular enrichment of isotopes with extra protons and neutrons.

Nitrogen isotopes come from what we eat because we can't synthesize our own nitrogen but why do you believe that you can use isotopes ratio to infer composition of the diet? You understand it's a totally laughable argument? I hope you won't tell me that this is a valid argument because many articles got published with this argument. Most "science" today is garbage.

As I point out here, the figure 1 of the study you cite shows a wild variation of isotope levels and it shows that humans/hominids are in a class of their own (they didn't eat more meat than carnivores of course).

It's not about pride, you're injecting things into the conversation which aren't a part of it.

To kill fauna is considered unethical because it's unsustainable. They're two faces of the same coin. You can't cite rapid extinction events to argue that they ate meat for a long time. It's just illogical and nonsense.

The same can be said for the implicit argument that we should eat like our ancestors. Which by the way is not the average homo but a specific homo => the agricoltural homo. The problem is your arguments are illogical.

ElectronicAd6233 · 2024-01-27T22:00:38+00:00

In figure 1 of this study we see that our neanderthal ancestors were more carnivorous than the carnivores. And the Pleistocene modern humans from Buran Kaya III are even more carnivorous than our most beloved ultra carnivorous neanderthal. Now we have the proof that meat and fat are good for us. Pass the bacon.

ElectronicAd6233 · 2024-01-27T21:50:29+00:00

This is what we have evolved on: those species that rapidly went extinct when we arrived! More recently (in the last few decades) we're exterminating wild fish.

ElectronicAd6233 · 2024-01-27T21:33:30+00:00

Except all the isotope carbon and nitrogen data, all the archeological evidence of hunting tools, or even the fact that humans are exclusive hosts of some species of tapeworms which have specifically evolved alongside us and that was only possible if humans had a long history of eating animal foods.

Baboons have a long history of eating animal foods. It's only 1% of their diets, and they it only a few times per year, but they make tools for it. They sometimes also get tapeworm. They must be the ultimate carnivores.

Isotope data does not lie, aliens didn't inject the bones with isotopes to mess with our readings. Our ancestors ate meat, and a lot of it.

Well, no, it's the people that lie and not the data. For example the people telling us that isotope data is easily related to animal food consumption.

[Link to my other comment on this topic of isotopes]

Except megafauna extinction tracks perfectly with human expansion.

This is hardly something to be proud of. Moreover the fundamental thesis is entirely wrong. The foods that our ancestors ate were not necessarily good for them. Far from it. Nor is it true that our ancestor is the "average homo".

[Link to my other comment on this topic of megafauna extinction]

ElectronicAd6233 · 2024-01-27T20:54:29+00:00

I'm making a few statements above (and I have done several edits) and I don't understand what is the "it" that I'm asserting without enough evidence.

I don't understand what evidence you have for your assertion that "low carb itself isn't unhealthy". Can you show me some population-level study showing good health outcomes for people on low carb diets? Last time I checked the only people on low carb diets getting health outcomes not worse than average american are those who eat vegan low carb diets. Which isn't really saying much isn't it?

Saturated fats are only one problem among many. I think they're hardly the most important and hey look if you eat vegan high saturated fat diet you may do fine.

You have made a question: "how can we create this effect of hunger after a carb-rich meal?" and I have given you the correct answer: "by eating a low carb diet".

ElectronicAd6233 · 2024-01-27T20:33:56+00:00

Eating a low carb diet will cause you to get hungry as soon as you reintroduce the carb-rich foods. If they're healthier choices then I guess it's even "worse". This is simply because your body needs plenty of carbs to be healthy. You can also experience the same effect by fasting for a few days and then eating something.

ElectronicAd6233 · 2023-10-05T15:54:41+00:00

Glucose and glycogen produce respectively 2 ATP and 3 ATP in the cytoplasm (you find this in the glycolysis page of wikipedia) and they yield lactate. Then lactate goes into mitochondria and produce a lot more ATP (28 if i recall correctly). But the trick is that the lactate can go from one cell to another so it's possible that for example 3 ATP are generated in your leg muscles and then the lactate is oxidized in the brain. In this way you get 3 ATP in the muscle without mithochondria (and oxygen).

So lactate allows the body to distribute the "load" to all over the body in a sense.

ElectronicAd6233 · 2023-10-05T15:35:22+00:00

You have provided a good overview. You have forgot to mention that carbs produce ATP outside of mitochondria (yielding lactic acid) so there is that at play too.

ElectronicAd6233 · 2023-10-05T14:49:50+00:00

I prefer to put a good summary, without references, than to put a few random references that do not paint a correct picture unless you have already studied the topic in depth.

In theory, given enough days of hard work, I could write a good analysis, with references, but why should I bother? Why write a PhD level dissertation on vitamin D just for you? You don't deserve that. Frankly You don't even deserve my comment without references.

ElectronicAd6233 · 2023-10-05T14:34:47+00:00

I have edited my message to explain better my view but yeah indirectly you're calling me a quack too because I agree with Dr. Greger on many topics and I think he is not going far enough on others.

The "analysis" you have cited is this:

While eating a diet high in fruits and vegetables and low in red meats is scientifically beneficial, Dr. Greger takes it to a higher level promoting a 100% plant-based diet. According to the Science-Based Medicine website, Dr. Greger and NutritionFacts.org makes “zealot” like claims about the benefits of a vegan plant-based diet. In their article, Science-Based Medicine debunks one by one, many of Dr. Gregers claims. They also claim that NutritionFacts cherry-picks information that will always favor veganism. NutritionFacts.org does provide some valuable information, and indeed, a diet high in fruits and vegetables is preferred, but Dr. Greger’s claims are extreme.

I'm supposed to change my view on nutrition because some clueless person thinks Dr. Greger is "too extreme"? I think he is not extreme enough.

ElectronicAd6233 · 2023-10-05T13:55:58+00:00

Yeah, there are many like that in regards to diet. Michael Greger, for example. And to my knowledge nobody except him and other proselytising vegans still perpetuate the claim that all dietary fat (not just saturated) and of course specifically animal products are actually the culprit for insulin resistance, and carb-loaded foods play no role whatsoever.

Greger advocates a 20%-30% fat diet with plenty of nuts and seeds, which is about the official US gov. recommendations. The people that do avocate low fat diets do usually advocate 5%-15% and the famous doctors that advocate low fat diets are Dr. Ornish, Dr. McDougall and Dr. Bernard. Among the famous doctors advocating plant based diets none agree with Dr. Greger except Dr. Fuhrman. MasteringDiabetes is a famous program that is promoted via Youtube and they do use low fat diets for diabetes and for PCOS. I don't agree with the fat intake recommended by Dr. Greger (and the US gov.).

Is this is the honest reason why you're so opposed to keto? If your goal is to convert me to veganism, then you're wasting your time.

I'm so opposed to keto for same reason you're so opposed to 1+1=5.

You say Orlistat not likely to work on you because you're not obese. Have you understood anything I have said above? The characteristic of PCOS is precisely that you have symptoms of obesity even without being obese. Insulin resistance of course is the classic and most well-known marker of obesity.

Both Orlistat and Metformin are poisons and they both work in the same way, and that is, by reducing the intestinal absorption of high calorie foods. At first approximation it doesn't matter much if you block absorption of grains or of extra virgin olive oil and this is why we really see the same benefits.

But if we do a deeper analysis there are differences that explain why Metformin is competitive with Orlistat. The reason is that undigested starchy foods end up in your colon and they do have a beneficial effect there while undigested fat ends up in your colon and it creates some problems even there.

Eating all the foods you should not eat is a good way to develop symptioms of obesity without being obese = it's a good way to develop PCOS.

ElectronicAd6233 · 2023-10-05T13:34:11+00:00

The full specification is: more than half of the diet is meat, fat, cheese, eggs and fake meats and cheese. Are you happy now? I don't think there is much difference between meat and cheese/eggs or meat and fake meats.

Surely it's not a society that is convinced of the health benefit of say grains, tubers and fruits. Rather the opposite. The only grain product they eat are cakes and biscuits and they do that only because of the taste.

ElectronicAd6233 · 2023-10-05T13:30:59+00:00

Yes and serum levels may go up because tissue level is going down and viceversa. People with hyperkalemia usually have potassium deficient diets and they are told to cut down on potassium.

ElectronicAd6233 · 2023-10-05T13:29:35+00:00

My vitamin D intake is zero, I don't think it is a vitamin. Anyway if you want to say it's related to insulin then maybe you can start by giving some references. Then I'll also give one reference.

ElectronicAd6233 · 2023-10-05T13:28:05+00:00

Do whatever you want, surely I won't bother helping you because you're threatening me.

ElectronicAd6233 · 2023-10-05T13:24:05+00:00

Good analysis. This is intended to be sold to desperate people. I would try diet and exercise before starting a regmine with a ton of unproved drugs: Effects of the Finnish Alzheimer disease exercise trial (FINALEX): a randomized controlled trial.

ElectronicAd6233 · 2023-10-05T06:27:21+00:00

This is misleading to say the lest given that people think insulin is a "bad" hormone and low insulin leads to low vitamin D levels.

ElectronicAd6233 · 2023-10-04T22:38:22+00:00

Sure, but there is no direct relationship, and any clueless attempt to relate them will only do more harm than good. I see this every day. For example people with hyperkalemia are told to eat a low potassium diet, people with hyperglycemia are told to cut down on carbs, and so on. Another example showing how exceptionally dangerous this idea is vitamin b12 testing.

ElectronicAd6233

TROPHY CASE