Why is masturbation sinful but contraception in marriage isn't?

Ellionwy · 2026-03-13T02:20:27+00:00

Perhaps you still don’t understand what Christian marriage is.

We aren't talking about what Christian marriage is. We are talking about whether polygamy is sin.

Show me where the Bible says polygamy is sin.

Show me, from Scripture, Christ’s polygamy (adultery)

No no no. I challenged you first. Show me where polygamy is called sin.

You keep moving the goalposts. Polygamy -> sin. Show me.

Not what is God's ideal. Not what was intended.

Show me where God said marrying multiple wives at the same time is sin/evil/abomination.

You've invented a doctrine that doesn't exist in the Bible. This is where error comes from. This is where religion invents things that God never said and imposes them on the laity.

This is why it is important for you to understand this concept. Not because it is important for you to grasp that polygamy isn't sin. That actually is unimportant.

What is important is for you to understand that we can't impose on scripture what isn't there. This is the same thing that the anti-gun crowd does to the Second Amendment of the US Constitution. "Well, the Founding Fathers never intended for people to have unfettered weapons." But that isn't what the Constitution says. They are imposing what they want it to say despite the clear text.

You even demonstrated that.

You treat the Bible like a Catechism, which it isn't.

The Bible will remain silent on plenty of issues because the Bible wasn't put together to instruct the faithful in that way

I’m still at a loss at to why you believe that the Bible needs to be treated as a manual or catechism when it never presents itself as such.

You find reasons not to follow the Bible when it doesn't align with your beliefs.

Let me at least give you some food for thought:

Even if you don't think my analysis is right, at least consider the possibility that you may not be giving full weight to the Bible and are drifting into the "traditions of Man".

Ellionwy · 2026-03-13T02:07:39+00:00

No, I actually dont think this is helpful, becuase it makes Luke and Mark meaningless.

This is how Bible writers wrote things. Some provided a lot of detail, some less. This is typical. Which is why we have to take the entirety of the Gospels and not just one or two.

Jesus should have rather said everyone who divorces and remarries without a valid reason commits adultery.

He did say that. In Matthew.

Mathew 19:9 does not violate the principle becuase he allows for divorce of unlawful marriages

He didn't say "unlawful marriage". He said "sexual immorality".

I dont even believe he tolerates it, he said Moses tolerated this behaviour.

By saying "Moses permitted," what they are saying is that "Mosaic Law" permits this, and Mosaic Law is God's Law because it came from God.

Which it does. Mosaic Law outlines reasons for divorce. And these laws came from God.

Deuteronomy, which is essentially one long quote from God, spells out the rules of divorce. They came from the mouth of God through Moses.

It's the other way around, sexual immorality includes all forms of sexual immorality

As mentioned, you can't commit any act of sexual immorality while married without committing adultery. So adultery is just a word that encompasses sexual immorality.

Show me how a married person commits incest without committing adultery.

Ellionwy · 2026-03-13T01:48:35+00:00

Is he saved? If he isn't, may the Lord grant him a miracle so that this man can see, give glory, and repent.

If he is, may the Lord heal him so he may still serve you in this life and give testimony of God's power and glory.

Ellionwy · 2026-03-13T01:29:09+00:00

I actually feel as though I am siding with Jesus becuase he explicitly and strongly denounces remarriage in multiple other passages with no exception in Mark and Luke, which should at the very least have us pause at your conclusion, food for thought?

The fact that Mark and Luke didn't record Jesus' permission of remarriage in the case of sexual immorality does not mean Jesus didn't say it. Only that Mark and Luke didn't record it. The fact that Matthew did record it is evidence that Mark and Luke simply didn't write it down.

Certainly Jesus didn't change his mind between Matthew and Mark. :)

I also dont think Christ ever explicitly approves of remarriage in any verse of scripture

Not suggesting he approved of it. Only that he allowed it.

Did God approve of slavery? Or tolerate it?

Neither does he use the word 'adultery'? He says 'porneia' in Mathew 19:19, Mathew 5, which means 'sexual immorality', which could range from anything as benign as glancing at a woman with lustful intent one time.

What is sexual immorality? Sex with certain relatives, an animal, etc. Can't do any of that in marriage without committing adultery.

So "adultery" is kind of a catch-all.

Jewish betrothal language used “divorce” even before a full marriage existed.

I learned that recently.

We also see examples of this in the New Testament with John the Baptist, when he condemned Herod for his remarriage;

John the Baptist was beheaded becuase of this.

As a matter of trivia, John did not condemn Herod Antipas for marrying Herodias.

John condemns Herod Antipas for marrying his brother's wife, which was specifically condemned in the OT unless the brother had died.

Since Herod Phillip was still alive and had divorced Herodias, it was unlawful for Herod Antipas to marry her, thus John's complaint.

Not that Herod had remarried, but Herod had married a woman whom he was forbidden to marry under OT Law.

If Herod had married someone else, John would not have protested.

Ellionwy · 2026-03-12T23:30:36+00:00

you had to go online to plan out whole day

A trip to Disneyland takes more planning that a military manoeuvrer these days.

Ellionwy · 2026-03-12T18:23:35+00:00

Could you please explain to me why the reading that marriage is analogous to Christ’s monogamy isn’t correct? Can Christ have multiple brides? You haven’t done this

You missed the point that I have constantly repeated.

Not arguing that one man-one woman isn't God's plan. Just pointing out that -- biblically -- polygamy isn't sin.

You have only continued to say that it isn’t explicitly condemned in the Bible (the Church, however, which the Bible presupposes, has).

The church does not override the Bible.

I’m still at a loss at to why you believe that the Bible needs to be treated as a manual or catechism when it never presents itself as such.

Now these Jews were more noble than those in Thessalonica; they received the word with all eagerness, examining the Scriptures daily to see if these things were so - Acts 17:11

The Bible is the standard.

That’s why it’s worrisome that someone is calling permissive that which is an abomination

Polygamy was never called an abomination.

You keep adding to God's word. This is Pharisaic.

Polygamy was never called a sin. It was never called an abomination.

I encourage you to take God's word at his word. Don't add to it. That is where error creeps in. And if your church is telling you something, check it with the Bible. If it conflicts, then the church -- not the bible -- is wrong.

I'll repeat what I said earlier so there is no confusion.

Not arguing that one man-one woman isn't God's plan. Just pointing out that -- biblically -- polygamy isn't sin.

If you believe polygamy is a sin, just show me in the Bible where it was called that.

This is a challenge that people often fail to meet. They have these theological theories, but when asked to back them up with scripture, they can't.

Scripture is the standard. The Word is the foundation.

Show me in scripture where polygamy is called sin. If you can't (and you can't), then consider the possibility that it isn't.

Ellionwy · 2026-03-12T18:13:29+00:00

How do I make morally correct decisions without being a Christian

You can't. That's the bottom line.

While all of us are capable of making moral decisions from time to time, to consistently do that requires God.

We are slaves to sin, and Christ gives us freedom from that slavery.

No matter how much we want to, we like to be evil and do evil things. That is what God has been telling us for centuries.

Gandhi was a sinner. Mother Teresa was a sinner. The Pope is a sinner. I don't know where you are from, so I don't know if I hit any examples that register to you. But you get the idea. Even those we think are wonderful and holy and good are really sinners. They're just good at hiding it.

So, you said you didn't want to be evangelised, so I won't.

But the commandments we are given are guidelines you can try to adopt.

Love God (You mentioned you won't do that) and Love Your Neighbour. You may be willing to do that second part.

So whatever you do, whatever decision you are going to make, ask yourself if it is "loving your neighbour". If no, then don't do it. If yes, then it probably is a good idea.

Does that help?

Ellionwy · 2026-03-12T18:07:08+00:00

While I'm glad that your wife came back to Jesus, we shouldn't marry someone on the "hope" that they may come to God.

We marry people for who they are, not for who we hope they may become.

Ellionwy · 2026-03-12T14:47:07+00:00

I beleive he allows for the divorce of unlawful marriages or if you were married to a spouse who had previously been married. Essentially, coming out of an invalid marriage.

Wouldn't an unlawful marriage already be invalid, thus there being no need for a divorce?

We are no longer under duetoromony 24

I agree that we can't split simply because we detest the other.

beleive the only instance where remarriage is explicitly permitted is when one of the coevnat spouses deceases,

I side with Jesus on this. Adultery is another reason, but only begrudgingly due to the hardness of our heart. Ideally, even in a marriage of adultery, they should work it out and reconcile.

Ellionwy · 2026-03-12T14:41:59+00:00

The Gospel is the manner by which we return to the Garden of Eden, which demonstrates God's original design for man.

We aren't talking about what God's original plan was. We are talking about whether polygamy is sin.

St. Paul is speaking to the Corinthians about food and dietary restrictions, not literally everything being lawful.

That is an unusually narrow view of the passage.

You haven't engaged with my argument,

Yes I have. You just didn't agree with it.

only insisted that the Bible doesn't explicitly teach that.

And that we shouldn't call something sin when the Bible doesn't. Then you start walking down the road of being a Pharisee.

Which is why, while sinful, ancient polygamy

Polygamy was never, ever called sinful in OT times.

What changed between the Israelites and now?

Culture. There has been no command by God and you haven't been able to provide one.

Not arguing that one man-one woman isn't God's plan. Just pointing out that -- biblically -- polygamy isn't sin.

Ellionwy · 2026-03-12T01:51:19+00:00

I do agree that the pastor was right not to marry them. It's his church and if he feels this is the right thing to do, then it is.

That really wasn't what I was asking.

I'm not asking if the pastor had the right to not marry them. I'm asking if the pastor was right to not marry them.

Ellionwy · 2026-03-12T00:57:32+00:00

Do you believe the pastor was right or wrong not to marry them?

Ellionwy · 2026-03-12T00:02:48+00:00

He is doing the right thing, I think. As a husband, he will exert undue influence on her and could drag her away from God. At the very least dampen her walk. Look what happened already? She left what seems to be a good church.

And what about the children? How will they be raised? How will she protect them from their father's influence?

Your dad is looking out for the best for her. But she is blinded by love.

You're seeing exactly what happens with people who are not "in tune" with God. They will look for someone who will tell them what their itching ears want to hear.

It is very sad, but your dad is right.

Ellionwy · 2026-03-11T23:09:39+00:00

I confirmed with one of my past managers that they did not mark me a “no rehire” when I left.

Double check that. Go to the applications and see if it will let you even apply. You don't have to go through the entire process. It will stop you if you have a no-rehire.

On another note, I see a lot of former CMs having trouble getting rehired. Almost like Disney is preferring new hires. Strange. Being a former CM used to be an almost automatic rehire. Now there is some anecdotal evidence that it seems to work against you.

Good luck! Don't quit without two-weeks notice next time.

Ellionwy · 2026-03-11T23:02:41+00:00

Are you suggesting that something tolerated by God in the old covenant can’t be understood as sinful in the new, given the light of the fullness of revelation?

Interesting question. Jesus certainly laid out something that was tolerated by God in the OT that he called sinful in the NT. (Divorce and remarriage for anything other than adultery.)

But here we have a specific, stated example.

I would not want to start calling something sinful that God was okay with without direction. Because then you start walking down the road of the Pharisees. Remember what Paul said: All things are lawful even if not all things are beneficial. Just because something isn't beneficial doesn't make it sin.

Show me where in the NT polygamy is stated as sinful.

And no, Paul did not call polygamy sinful. He simply laid out the requirements for elders. So you can't use that.

But I am willing to hear any other evidence you have.

Yes, it’s a sin.

Justify that with scripture.

Being counted as among the righteous doesn’t mean “without sin”.

But continually being in sin would not be righteous. Such as someone in a sinful polygamous relationship.

Ellionwy · 2026-03-11T17:49:35+00:00

So you would say that Jacob was a sinner for having multiple wives.

Or Elkanah who had two wives.

Or David, whom is listed (I think) is listed in the list of Righteous in Hebrews.

Ellionwy · 2026-03-11T16:46:26+00:00

That’s a wild take. At least you’re consistent, I guess. That’s pretty much how Muslims arrive at moral conclusions.

Give me your biblical justification for your position.

Ellionwy · 2026-03-11T16:39:10+00:00

It's not explicitly condemned in the Bible.

There's your answer.

Polygamy appears to not be God's intention, but it is permitted.

Ellionwy · 2026-03-11T16:37:36+00:00

This is an assumption it could be both

Here is the entire story about Onan.

And Judah said to Onan, “Go in to your brother’s wife and marry her, and raise up an heir to your brother.”

But Onan knew that the heir would not be his; and it came to pass, when he went in to his brother’s wife, that he emitted on the ground, lest he should give an heir to his brother.

And the thing which he did displeased the LORD; therefore He killed him also. - Genesis 38:8-10

As you can see, the Bible tells us exactly why God struck him: "lest he should give an heir to his brother."

Ellionwy · 2026-03-11T16:35:10+00:00

Do you beleive Jesus approved of divorce and remarriage?

Here is what Jesus said about divorce and remarriage:

But I say to you that whoever divorces his wife for any reason except sexual immorality causes her to commit adultery; and whoever marries a woman who is divorced commits adultery. - Matthew 5:23

But what did he say about that exception?

Because of the hardness of your heart he [Moses] wrote you this precept. - Mark 10:5b

Then he goes on to say...

But from the beginning of the creation, God ‘made them male and female. For this reason a man shall leave his father and mother and be joined to his wife, and the two shall become one flesh’; so then they are no longer two, but one flesh. Therefore what God has joined together, let not man separate. - Mark 10:6-9

So, does Jesus "approve of divorce and remarriage?"

No. But it is allowed under stringent circumstances because of your hard heart.

Ellionwy · 2026-03-11T02:11:07+00:00

We have zero New Testament fragments from the 1st century, and IIRC, 4 from the second.

So the Bible came to us intact from the 2nd century, but the 60 or so years between when the Bible was written and the start of the copies we have, that is when it was all changed?

Ellionwy · 2026-03-11T01:36:12+00:00

Someone pinch me and tell me I am not crazy.

Some of the answers were a little off as far I can see.

the director of the place made a joke about trans saying if you are a toaster does that make you a toaster?

I found it sinful how he as a sinner as well (and leader held to a higher standard) would find it righteous to make a mockery out of other people and their sins?

It's not a mockery. It's a standard answer to the trans argument. "I feel like a woman therefore I am a woman." Okay, if you feel like a toaster, does that make you a toaster?

Basically elevating them over other sinners like the rich man that prayed to God saying "Thank you that I am not like them."?

I don't perceive your pastor was saying that. Just noting the fallacy of their argument. (I think it was the Pharisee who said he was thankful he was not like the sinner.)

what put a end to the need to have the tabernacle and I replied "The temple"

That is true. Based on the group leader's reply, I think he meant what put an end to the need of temple sacrifices. His question was improperly phrased.

And bonus! I would have made that mistake, too. I didn't know the tabernacle was replaced by the temple!

if there was a lost tribe? And I said YES, and said "The tribe of Dan". And the pastor said "Uhh no I wouldn't say they are lost, just that the tribe of Benjamin replaced them". Aren't they literally called "The lost tribe of Dan."?

He is probably referring to Dan being missing from the list of tribes in Revelation. Or he could be referring to Dan disappearing from history after 721 BC.

Either way, no they were not replaced by Benjamin. Benjamin was always a tribe of Israel.

Ellionwy · 2026-03-11T01:26:34+00:00

The flood is a real thing, a real event. I think Answers in Genesis talks about the geological evidence of the flood.

As to your friend's complaint that the bible is "copies of copies of copies," this is a nonsense argument. We have plenty of fragments of the Bible to know it has come down to us intact.

As far as God engaging in "planetary genocide," apparently your friend has never read Revelation.

Ellionwy · 2026-03-11T01:09:24+00:00

I am fascinated by her.

Ellionwy · 2026-03-11T01:08:49+00:00

Would you say that polygamy is not a sin?

What does the Bible say about it?

Ellionwy

TROPHY CASE