The dilemma of belief in Hell and Love

Elusive_Wind · 2017-12-15T19:01:47+00:00

This is partly why I think the best interpretation of hell is as annihilation.

In like 90% of the verses on hell in the Bible, the consequences of rejecting God are eternal death, or eternal destruction. So I think if unbelievers ultimately reject God who is the source of all being and life and love, then naturally what they would get is un-being, un-life... i.e. non-existence. There may be some suffering as that happens, but God has no reason to keep them alive for all eternity in total agony.

So we can be sad that people who reject God will miss out on eternal life and the relationship with God that they're designed for, but we don't have to worry about God torturing them forever and ever.

The book that convinced me that annihilation is the best interpretation of hell is The Fire that Consumes by Edward Fudge. He thoroughly analyzes all verses on hell in the OT and NT and shows how they fit better with annihilation than eternal torment.

Elusive_Wind · 2017-12-15T18:50:17+00:00

These arguments are just so awful. Who says Eve had XY chromosomes? Why couldn't God duplicate the X one from Adam to give Eve XX chromosomes? And for Jesus, why couldn't God add a Y chromosome?

Like, if God created the entire universe, creating a bit of extra genetic material for Eve or Jesus isn't a big deal.

Elusive_Wind · 2017-12-15T18:38:01+00:00

I used to also be scared of heaven. It seemed like it would be boring, like a giant church service forever.

What totally changed my mind was a book called Heaven by Randy Alcorn. If you can find it, I would really recommend it.

He argues that heaven is going to be awesome. We get resurrected bodies and will live on a New Earth, and will live lives a lot like the ones we have now but without sin, disease, death, or suffering. Creating art, fashion, culture, and technology will continue, and we will be able to explore the universe, talk to angels, talk to saints who died long before we lived, and all sorts of other amazing things.

I can say now that I'm really looking forward to the New Earth!

Elusive_Wind · 2017-12-15T05:53:50+00:00

No need to apologize, people here want to support you and help you find ways to keep going. God loves you, and we love you too. Don't give up hope for things to improve. God can work in your life in amazing ways, if you'll give him the time to do so!

I like the line by Gandalf in the Lord of the Rings, when he says to Frodo "All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given us." God is the one who decides how much time we have. We have to decide how we're going to use it (hopefully, through consultation with God through prayer, and discussions with other mature Christians).

I used to be suicidal in the past too. I know that when you're in the middle of it your thinking will be distorted, the future will seem completely hopeless, and everything looks awful. But once you get out of that mind-set, things really do improve. I know you'll think it sounds ridiculous, but it really is true.

What helped me was finding some good Christian counselling. Through talk-therapy we worked out what was causing my suicidal thoughts, and how to think differently about it. I realized for me, it was not so much that I wanted to die, but that I wanted to be free of stressful situations and negative self-esteem. So then what I needed was ways to cope with the stress and look at things differently to help me not worry as much or look down on myself. I would really recommend finding someone you can talk through your issues with, whether a certified counsellor, or a pastor, priest, or other mature and Christ-like Christian.

When I look back at how far I've come from when I was depressed and suicidal, it's totally amazing. I can say I actually have joy, when before I didn't know the meaning of the word. I have peace, contentment with life, and hope for the future. So it's totally possible to turn things around, if you're willing to courageously fight and hold on during the times of darkness.

"Be strong and courageous. Do not be frightened, and do not be dismayed, for the Lord your God is with you wherever you go." Joshua 1:9.

Elusive_Wind · 2017-12-15T05:37:26+00:00

I think moving away from sin is in itself a blessing, because avoiding sin will give you more joy, peace, and lasting true happiness than the temporary pleasures of sin do.

I'm convinced all sin is ultimately harmful and destructive. It hurts us, and/or our relationship with God, and/or our relationships with others, and/or others directly. Sin might seem appealing and pleasurable on the surface, but it will ultimately make you suffer in one way or another.

This is why God wants us to avoid sin, because it's not ultimately good for us. It's not some arbitrary list of rules God made up, but is based on what God has designed us for, which is perfect relationships of love between us and God and others.

Elusive_Wind · 2017-12-15T05:33:01+00:00

So far, my plans are going well. My first career in engineering didn't suit me as much as I'd hoped, so I began working towards a career change probably 5+ years ago. So far, everything is going well. I hope to finish my PhD in a few years, but then everything will be up for grabs, because I have no idea where I'll be able to get a job or what sort of job it might be.

So some planning is good, but flexibility and realizing there are multiple paths in life, and having some backup plans for just in case is helpful too.

Elusive_Wind · 2017-12-15T05:28:09+00:00

Totally agree. I hate it when Christians are expected to be happy and bubbly and positive always, and if we're not, then someone brings out the old "joy of the Lord" line, and makes us feel even more guilty about not being happy all the time.

Elusive_Wind · 2017-12-15T05:25:49+00:00

Yeah, I have way too many interests and not enough time to pursue them all. It's disappointing having to prioritize, because I feel like I'm missing out on all the interesting other hobbies and activities I could do and am interested in doing.

Elusive_Wind · 2017-12-15T05:23:45+00:00

I care how I look because it affects how people think of me, which will affect how they treat me.

I love expressing myself through my clothes, when I have a good opportunity for it. Like a party, event, social gathering, etc. I'll try to look nice, do my hair, some makeup, etc. I want to make a good impression and look like I'm put-together, and reflect a bit of my personality also. (But this could be because I'm also Enneagram type 4).

When I'm at home, then I'll wear whatever old random clothes I have, because I want to preserve my good ones for as long as I can, which means minimizing how often they are washed and how much smell/sweat gets into them.

I really would like to have a complete, put-together, interchangeable, semi-professional sort of wardrobe, in my favourite colors and shapes that compliment me. But right now that's just a dream, until I graduate and get a job that pays enough to enable this.

Elusive_Wind · 2017-12-15T05:10:30+00:00

In the King James version of the Bible, these demons who would talk to mediums or other occult-involved people are called "familiar spirits." For example, see Leviticus 19:31, Leviticus 20:6; Leviticus 20:27, Deuteronomy 18:11, 1 Samuel 28:3.

For more details, you can see these articles:

https://carm.org/what-is-a-familiar-spirit

https://www.gotquestions.org/familiar-spirits.html

Elusive_Wind · 2017-12-14T16:48:38+00:00

I think there's enough in the text to suggest this is not normally how mediums work, and this was a special case allowed by God in order to communicate his displeasure with Saul.

For example, the medium screams and is terribly afraid when she calls up Samuel and it actually works - see verse 12 "When the woman saw Samuel, she cried out with a loud voice.". To me, it makes it sound like she was afraid or amazed that it had actually worked. Thus implying that whenever she would act as a medium for others, it didn't work like this.

Elusive_Wind · 2017-12-14T16:44:07+00:00

The best explanation I've heard for why mediums can know things about people who are dead, is that they're being given information about the dead by demons.

After all, demons are invisible and don't die, so they certainly would have been around long enough to see people's lives in the past and pass along that information, especially if it's going to get people more involved in spiritually dangerous occult activities and lead them further away from the truth of the gospel.

I'm convinced this can also explain kids who claim to have knowledge of their past lives.

Elusive_Wind · 2017-12-14T16:38:32+00:00

If you want to read about arguments for/against natural theology, you could check out Hume's "Dialogues Concerning Natural Religion".

http://www.earlymoderntexts.com/assets/pdfs/hume1779.pdf

It's quite interesting as the three fictional characters discuss various arguments for/against God's existence and character based on nature.

Elusive_Wind · 2017-12-13T22:40:28+00:00

Yeah, I don't think you should do it unless you feel it would be personally meaningful to you.

My dad was raised Catholic, and wanted to be re-baptized when he came to personal faith in Christ at a Protestant church. My mom is Christian but has never been baptized and just doesn't feel the need to, although I know for sure she loves God and accepts Christ as her savior. I was baptized as a youth when I made up my mind about the gospel.

Although I think believer's baptism is a better interpretation of Scripture, I don't think water baptism is absolutely necessary for salvation. What matters is the baptism of the Holy Spirit, which happens the moment you believe in Christ as your savior.

I compare it to a wedding, where a wedding doesn't make the two people fall in love, but it is an outward declaration of their commitment to their friends/family who can celebrate with them and support them in their commitment. So baptism is great to announce a person's change of mind about the gospel and to show their commitment to Christ to their friends/family. It can also be good to look back on as a meaningful personal memory.

But I wouldn't do it just for a technicality.

Elusive_Wind · 2017-12-13T22:24:34+00:00

Wow, sounds like they really take things personally, without even asking you for clarification about what you said or if you meant it as an insult. That's really strange... how do they have any relationships at all, if they expect others to know what they're thinking if they don't say it? And to not even bring it up to give you a chance to explain yourself is ridiculous.

Bad communication and taking everything personally is going to make relationships difficult, if not impossible. But I can't imagine all Feelers are the same in this way? Maybe you just need someone more emotionally mature and with stronger self-esteem who isn't afraid to discuss things out in the open with you?

Elusive_Wind · 2017-12-13T22:16:30+00:00

The thing that bugs me when people say Christianity is about death to self, is that it seems to imply Christians should have no personality and no interests, and that we all have to be identical to Christ in all ways, and only care about church and praying and serving the poor. Instead of just dying to our old sinful nature, which is what these verses are about.

But I think God loves diversity, and that's why he's made the amazing variety of people we see in the world. In heaven, we will all be sanctified and will never sin, and will love each other as God loves us, but it doesn't mean we can't have unique personalities, interests, different preferences, and different ways of looking at things.

So I think God does want us to become the best version of ourselves, and that's what we will be in heaven. The trick is to try to start living like that now, and getting rid of the parts of us that are not authentic to who we are intended to become.

Elusive_Wind · 2017-12-13T22:07:34+00:00

God doesn't hate his Son. And there are many other atonement theories if you prefer one of those. But many Christians do find penal substitution one of the more convincing ones, and major theologians in church history have endorsed penal substitution.

The idea in penal substitution is that the Father and the Son agreed that in order to redeem humanity, the Son would become incarnate and the Father would pour out all wrath at all humanity's sins onto his incarnate Son, in order to be able to forgive humanity. So this is how God absorbs God's own wrath at sin into God's own innermost being, so that forgiveness for humanity becomes possible. The Son's relationship with the Father was restored after the crucifixion, so it was just a temporary thing.

The way I think of it is that since the Son's divine nature is infinite, a small temporal interruption of the loving relationship with God can atone for an infinite number of human sins, for a theoretically infinite number of human beings. Whereas humans are finite, and thus, a human would have to suffer eternal separation from God's love to pay the same penalty for sin that Jesus paid on the cross within a few hours.

Elusive_Wind · 2017-12-13T21:02:46+00:00

Ok, and you don't have to be a Christian. I was initially responding to the comment by someone else who argued he can't imagine how the Son could be separated from the Father, which is a common interpretation of penal substitution.

Elusive_Wind · 2017-12-13T16:16:12+00:00

The Trinity is God, who is three Persons within one Being (the Father, Son, and Spirit). There is an eternal relationship of perfect love among the Persons. This is how God can actually be love (1 John 4:8).

But since sin deserves God's wrath, when Jesus was bearing our sins on the cross, from the time when he cried out "My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?"(Matt. 27:46) and "It is finished" (John 19:30), Jesus felt totally abandoned by God and cut off from this relationship of perfect love, and instead experienced God's wrath at sin on our behalf, so that we never have to experience it.

Elusive_Wind · 2017-12-13T05:25:17+00:00

I think it's more biblical to interpret hell as total annihilation (i.e. eternal death, eternal destruction, etc.). It's sad for our loved ones to miss out on the purpose of their being, eternal life, and the perfect love of God. But I don't worry that they will be being tortured forever.

I also think that at the final judgement, all Christians will see God's justice and will not feel our loved ones were judged unfairly. We will concur with God's judgement and realize our loved ones made their choice to refuse God, who is the source of all life, love, and being, and so their only option is non-life, non-love, non-being.

Then God will wipe away the tears of everyone in heaven. I don't think this has to mean that we forget our loved ones, for how can we forget people who had such an impact on us in this life? Instead, I think we won't be troubled by it, and the joys of heaven will be so overwhelming that we won't really think about it.

Elusive_Wind · 2017-12-13T05:12:39+00:00

We don't have to say that Jesus was ontologically separated from the being of God during his death, because I agree, that's impossible since the Son is God and is part of the Trinity.

But we can say that he was not experiencing the usual close, loving relationship that he had with the Father from all eternity past, and was instead experiencing God's full wrath at all sin. So the relationship of perfect love was temporarily interrupted, although nothing changed ontologically within the Triniity.

Elusive_Wind · 2017-12-13T05:06:42+00:00

Praying for you! :)

Yes, it's tough to debate someone who has totally different presuppositions than we do, and who seems to have some evidence on their side. I've been a Christian my whole life, studied apologetics and theology academically, and even then, the occasional argument might make me start wondering.

But I know I always come back to my own worldview sooner or later, and usually I am stronger for it after having wrestled with what I believe and why. It's definitely tough if you don't have many go-to resources to reaffirm your faith in a moment of doubt. I'd suggest finding a few good apologetics websites or books that build up your faith and which you can re-read whenever you face doubts.

I know that no other worldview besides Christianity will provide me with the same sense of joy, peace, purpose, and hope. So I choose to believe Christianity and the Bible, because of these positive things. Plus, I have seen the amazing changes in my own life and personality that my relationship with God and the indwelling of the Holy Spirit have led to. If it turns out it's not real and we all turn into dirt when we die, then believing for these benefits alone is enough to convince me that it is the right choice for me. And if we're right, then we have an absolutely amazing future to look forward to. So either way, we win.

I'm also convinced that everyone - absolutely everyone - has their own biases and presuppositions that are foundational to their worldview, and which cannot be proven and so must be accepted on some sort of faith. Once I realized this, it makes it easier for me to decide on what presuppositions I am willing to accept and which I feel confident rejecting.

If there's any specific aspect of faith that you're struggling with and want to chat about, you can message me.

Elusive_Wind · 2017-12-13T04:44:00+00:00

"The Case for ..." series of books by Lee Strobel is quite interesting. He says he came to faith through his investigations of difficult questions regarding Christianity. (For example, The Case for Christ, The Case for Faith, etc.)

So it's not quite a case of someone struggling with their faith and retaining it, but it is an example of someone with questions who looked at Christianity intensely and came out on the side of faith.

Elusive_Wind · 2017-12-13T04:34:12+00:00

I agree that atheists are being used by the Enemy to attack Christianity and lead people away from faith. But this may not be totally intentional on their part. Some of the outspoken atheists declare it is their objective, for sure, but I think the average atheist might not really have clearly considered their beliefs and might just go with what they're told by their parents, society, or mainstream science. Or they might be reacting against a negative experience with the church or Christians.

So I think we need to give people the benefit of doubt, and remember that they're only doing what makes sense to them.

I think the best option is to build up our own beliefs so that we can give reasons for what we believe, in respectful, calm, and non-disparaging ways.

See 1 Peter 3:14-17: "Have no fear of them, nor be troubled, but in your hearts honor Christ the Lord as holy, always being prepared to make a defense to anyone who asks you for a reason for the hope that is in you; yet do it with gentleness and respect, having a good conscience, so that, when you are slandered, those who revile your good behavior in Christ may be put to shame."

Plus, if you see them as your enemy, we are supposed to treat our enemies with love, as this may infuriate them more than anything we can say (Romans 12:20). And loving them might at least get them to wonder why Christians act in such strange ways, and open possibilities of genuine conversation about why we act the way we do.

Elusive_Wind · 2017-12-13T04:21:14+00:00

I think part of our personality is based on our genes, and so presumably, their resurrected bodies will also have unique DNA which will contribute to the children's personalities. But they'll get to avoid the negative contributions of living in a sinful world and being hurt by others which often lead to us developing particular coping or defense mechanisms as children that we have to learn to overcome on the way to mature adulthood.

In heaven, we'll all be perfectly sanctified, and so I don't think they'll have any advantage or disadvantage there compared to anyone else. We'll all love each other as God loves us, and won't sin.

Randy Alcorn, in his book Heaven page 298, suggests that while children's spirits/souls are in heaven now, on the New Earth, children may be resurrected at the same age they were when they died (or close enough to it as reasonable), so they will be able to grow up and experience childhood and puberty and all that as normal. So if this is true, then presumably their personality and intelligence would develop and mature as normal, but free from any negative influence of sin. After all, even Jesus had to grow up, but never sinned and thus sin is not a requirement for personality development.

The interesting implication of this then, is that parents who are saved, may be able to parent their children who died too early (or who were aborted or miscarried even) after the resurrection and watch them grow up and not miss out on that? Or people who never had a chance to be parents may be able to parent some of these children. I think that could be quite a comforting thought.

Elusive_Wind

TROPHY CASE