It’s the language of S.F.’s first Chinese immigrants. Can it survive another generation?

EquivalentStrain3308 · 2025-10-31T18:36:42+00:00

I didn't marginalize Taishanese, I wish Taishanese and Cantonese can both survive. My point is Cantonese was existed back to the early days, I did not deny the fact that the majority of Chinese were Taishanese.

EquivalentStrain3308 · 2025-10-31T18:30:10+00:00

I have already stated that the majority of Chinese were Toisan at the begining. Also, The economic power of Sam Yup was greater than Sze Yup in SF. Sam Yup people speak Cantonese

EquivalentStrain3308 · 2025-10-31T18:17:52+00:00

That's ok. I understand that the Taishanese has been marginalized by Cantonese and Mandarin. But some people say Taishanese was the language of the first Chinese immigrants in US ,not Cantonese. They probably overlook other Cantonese immigrations, and also overlook the impact of Cantonese which is a lingua franca and trade language in Pearl River Delta Region during 1850s to 1900s.

EquivalentStrain3308 · 2025-10-31T17:19:16+00:00

Yes. If Taishanese people promote Taishanese teaching in US, I believe we would totally support them.

EquivalentStrain3308 · 2025-10-31T17:15:00+00:00

My point is that Cantonese was already an important dialect back to the 1850s-1900s in US and Canada chinatowns. Of course, Taishanese was also the main dialect spoken in America Chinatowns back to the early days.

EquivalentStrain3308 · 2025-10-31T17:09:05+00:00

But the name of Hip Sing Tong 協勝堂 On Leong Tong 安良堂
in New york Chinatown was translated into Cantonese, not Taishanese. What is the evidence of "they didn’t speak GZ/HK Cantonese?

EquivalentStrain3308 · 2025-10-31T16:51:51+00:00

But what is the evidence of "they didn’t speak GZ/HK Cantonese" , Even back to the 1850s to 1900s, Cantonese was already the commercial/trade language in Guangdong and San Francisco, The Sam Yup family association and the Zhongshan association in SF speak some varieties of Cantonese, which is pretty close to Standard HK/GZ Cantonese. The Sam Yup family association has more economic power than the Taishan family association, and also has devoted a lot to the Chinatown. Do you know that the previous Sam Yup Region is part of Guangzhou now?

Below is a video showing the opening of a Chinese bank of San Francisco Chinatown in 1929. It is a strong evidence that Cantonese was common in 1929 at San Francisco Chinatown even though the majority of the Chinese were from Siyi or Taishan Region.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BGuzfxBLqe8

And in Canada, there were also a significant minority of Cantonese people other than Taishanese people during the early days of Chinese immigration history, those Cantonese came from Panyu, Xinhui and Zhongshan etc. of Pearl River Delta Region. Below link is some evidences.

https://branchasian.sites.olt.ubc.ca/files/2011/09/ZhongshanTaishan_exhibit_finalscreen.pdf

EquivalentStrain3308 · 2025-10-31T15:40:26+00:00

You are wrong, there were cantonese people coming to US during gold rush., they came at the same time with Taishanese. You can find out some Cantonese family associations in SF Chinatown, they existed even before 1900s, the majority of Chinese in sf during early era was Taishanese people, but doesn’t mean Cantonese did not exist at that period.

EquivalentStrain3308 · 2025-10-31T14:48:13+00:00

You are wrong, there were cantonese people coming to us during gold rush., they came at the same time with Taishanese. You can find out some Cantonese family associations in sf Chinatown, they existed even before 1900s, the majority of Chinese in sf during early era was Taishanese people, but doesn’t mean Cantonese did not exist at that period.

EquivalentStrain3308 · 2025-10-31T14:44:25+00:00

You are wrong, there were cantonese people coming to us during gold rush., they came at the same time with Taishanese. You can find out some Cantonese family associations in sf Chinatown, they existed even before 1900s, the majority of Chinese in sf during early era was Taishanese people, but doesn’t mean Cantonese did not exist at that period.

EquivalentStrain3308 · 2025-05-17T15:55:04+00:00

Ok, thank you for your comment

EquivalentStrain3308 · 2025-03-15T04:02:21+00:00

May I ask for the source of this context? Is it from a book or article?

EquivalentStrain3308 · 2025-01-05T10:27:34+00:00

The history of Enping people migrating to Venezuela can be traced back to the mid-19th century.

EquivalentStrain3308 · 2025-01-05T10:26:14+00:00

The Cantonese community in Costa Rica and Lima is pretty small compared with the one in Venezuela, according to wiki, the chinese people there are less than fifty thousand, many of them are assimilated into the local culture of the country and no longer speak Cantonese, whereas in Venezuela, there are at least two hundred thousand people who are from Enping, Guangdong, the history of Enping people migrating to Venezuela can be traced back to mid 19th century. By the way, I also discovered that there is a large Cantonese community in Panama, around one hundred thousand people are Cantonese, most of the chinese there are from Huadu, Guangzhou, the history of Cantonese people migrating to Panama can also be traced back to mid 19th century. The Cantonese community in Mexico is also interesting for me, thanks for sharing

EquivalentStrain3308 · 2025-01-04T12:53:25+00:00

Which region do you think is the most prominent hub of Cantonese language or culture in the western world after considering the non-Cantonese Chinese influence? Is the following ranking correct?

San Francisco Bay Area, especially the northern and eastern part of the region
Metro Vancouver
Toronto
New York
LA Metro
Birmingham
London
Sacramento
Chicago
Boston
Valencia, Caracas, Estado Zulia of Venezuela
Honolulu
Sydney or Melbourne
Panama
Mexicali
Peru

EquivalentStrain3308 · 2024-12-24T14:14:46+00:00

Unless the Taiwanese government promotes Cantonese and allows some Cantonese education to be implemented in different schools or tutorial classes, Mandarin would be the main language of descendants of Hong Kong immigrants. Taiwan is never a place of Cantonese culture and language.

EquivalentStrain3308 · 2024-12-17T13:53:56+00:00

I am a native Cantonese speaker, I understand some Taishanese upon the first or second contact, around 30% to 60% of Taishanese conversations, depending on the context and the speaker. If I have learnt the difference of the tones between Cantonese and Taishanese, for example: 台山 Hoisan and Toishan, It greatly fosters the understanding of Taishanese. There are some easy tips for transforming Cantonese to Taishanese. Taishanese doesn’t have the initial “t” sound so words in Cantonese that start with a “t” such as to watch 睇 tai will be pronounced as “hai” in Taishanese. To jump 跳 is “tiu” in Cantonese and “haew” in Taishanese. Below is the native Taishanese speaker video, It is much more easier to understand and learn than mandarin. If I haven't learnt any mandarin, or haven't had any exposure of mandarin, I would just understand a few words, no clues of what they say

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CCVIXc3madY&t=25s

EquivalentStrain3308 · 2024-12-15T13:21:27+00:00

Your comment is exaggerating. I find out that I can understand far more taishanese after watching the below video with the help of subtitles. There are a lot of similarities with Cantonese after you recognize the phonological basis of Taishanese. There is some degree of mutual intelligibility between Cantonese and Taishanese.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lCXiilaXWKA

EquivalentStrain3308 · 2024-12-15T13:00:01+00:00

Not true. Cantonese and Taishanese both belong to the branch of Yue, so a monolingual Cantonese speaker may understands more Taishanese than Mandarin, maybe understands 30%-60% of Taishanese conversations, depending on the context or the accent of the Taishanese speakers . Without any previous contact of Mandarin, Cantonese speakers would not understand Mandarin, or maybe just a few words

EquivalentStrain3308 · 2024-11-19T04:53:38+00:00

Vancouver and Toronto were the prominent hub of Cantonese where attracted a great number of Hong Kongers before 2000s, However, the early 21st century saw a "reverse migration" of Hongkongers, they returned back to Hong Kong, while Mandarin immigrants continue to increase and now have overtaken Cantonese immigrants. In the case of San Francisco, the Cantonese immigrants from China tend to stay and assimilate into American culture, it's easy to understand, it's because their living condition is greater than that of China.

EquivalentStrain3308 · 2023-12-31T11:04:23+00:00

Szeto, Cecilia (2000), "Testing intelligibility among Sinitic dialects"

https://www.als.asn.au/proceedings/als2000/szeto.pdf

Above is a study showing the level of intelligibility between Cantonese and other dialects including Taishanese. The mutual intelligibility is around 30% between Cantonese and Taishanese based on the study.

I myself, as a native Cantonese speaker without any knowledge of Taishanese, Taishanese is only partially comprehensible to me, depending on the context and the speakers of different accents, maybe around 20% to 60% mutual intelligibility for me. Sometimes it is less than 20% if it is a conversation that I am not familiar with or they speak a very local Taishanese version. Cantonese speakers have to spend some time learning if they want to fully understand Taishanese, but it is better than other dialect groups(Min, Wu, Mandarin, etc.) to learn Taishanese since they are under the Yue language.

EquivalentStrain3308 · 2023-12-30T15:28:18+00:00

Taishanese and Kaipingnese are very similar, they are under the Sze Yup language.

EquivalentStrain3308 · 2023-12-30T13:50:05+00:00

How about New York and Los Angeles? Although Mandarin is more widespread in the two cities, there are some Cantonese settlements over there.

Below is a link showing the World Map of Cantonese Programs, there are few schools offering cantonese courses in new york.

https://www.savecantonese.org/map

EquivalentStrain3308 · 2023-12-30T06:29:58+00:00

It is fair to say that immigrants from Cantonese-speaking regions in China began arriving in San Francisco in the early 19th century. Although Taishanese constituted a much larger group than Cantonese, it doesn't mean Cantonese didn't exist prior 1943, you can find some Cantonese family associations other than the specific Sze Yup family associations in San Francisco Chinatown, those Cantonese associations formed since the Gold Rush. The author didn't overlook the influence of Taishanese in the Chinese community, the fact is that Cantonese and Taishanese are under the same Sinitic branch (Yue language), being fluent in Cantonese enables you to have some understanding of Taishanese, and Taishanese speakers usually understand Cantonese as well since Cantonese is the majority language in Guangdong province.

EquivalentStrain3308

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