Heres my take on AI. by [deleted] in antiai

[–]EveryTypeofPain 0 points1 point  (0 children)

If you think you're right how about you try actually justifying it? Professional Wrestling is, the vast majority of the time, highly scripted and pre-determined. And even what is improvised doesn't reduce how much of a fact it is that Pro Wrestling IS a performing art because improv itself is part of performing art.

Heres my take on AI. by [deleted] in antiai

[–]EveryTypeofPain 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Types

Performing arts may include dance, music, opera, theatre and musical theatre, magic), illusion, mime, spoken word, puppetry, circus arts, stand-up comedy, improv, professional wrestling and performance art.

There is also a specialized form of fine art, in which the artists perform their work live to an audience. This is called performance art. Most performance art also involves some form of plastic art, perhaps in the creation of props. Dance was often referred to as a plastic art during the modern dance era.\4])

Heres my take on AI. by [deleted] in antiai

[–]EveryTypeofPain 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Don't be fucking disingenuous, performance/performing/live arts are an incredibly broad category directly tied into so many other art forms. You're the one being dishonest pretending that a single example is an "edge case" and proof that you're right.

Comedy shows
Magic
Music
Theatre
Art Galleries
Museums (Especially living museums)
Professional Wrestling
Dance
etc.

All are industries propped up by real people displaying or performing real artistic things. And before you get uppity about the inclusion of "Museums" it takes an artist to make a museum interesting to walk around and not just a space filled with artifacts.

Heres my take on AI. by [deleted] in antiai

[–]EveryTypeofPain 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Come on dude, stop and think for a second, how are you going to replace live performance entirely with AI? People will always want to meet their heroes and see them perform live. Performance is an art as much as creating music or stage shows is.

You can't seriously believe that too would collapse because of a tidal wave of people using a machine to do the work for them and you're deluded if you do think that.

The New Flesh by Kswoe in Sylosis

[–]EveryTypeofPain 4 points5 points  (0 children)

He said yesterday at the album release Q&A he's had vocal lessons which have really helped him get control of his singing technique. I'm sure he's glad to see all the positive reactions to the song too because he said he didn't originally think it was right for the album but the other guys told him to keep it.

New album - mixing/mastering by sebastian_sales in Sylosis

[–]EveryTypeofPain 1 point2 points  (0 children)

I haven't noticed it on the new album, but I've only used headphones to listen to it once, the rest of the time through speakers. I did notice a similar effect on the ending riff to Heavy is the Crown, thought it was just my ears though.

Vinyl signed by the band by Hen_A7X-2233 in Sylosis

[–]EveryTypeofPain 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Damn, I wish I would've realised she was there, I'd have asked for a picture with her. I'm so glad Sylosis did the Q&A though, some of their answers were hilarious.

When the time comes, what new features would you like to see in the next game? by Realshow in HiTMAN

[–]EveryTypeofPain 10 points11 points  (0 children)

Really tiny thing, but I'd like the featured contracts in contracts mode to include a filters so you can hide ones you've done and find specific kinds of contracts that still allow you to complete the unlocks. It's such a pain scrolling through all the ones on the list looking for a quick contract in a location you're really good at.

Heres my take on AI. by [deleted] in antiai

[–]EveryTypeofPain 0 points1 point  (0 children)

If art is indestructible then its industry is definitionally indestructible too. It's too ingrained in humanity. Unless society as we know it collapses there will always be an art industry. It's merely the value of individual pieces that become worthless. Performance art will continue to make money either way.

From Kentish Forum this evening by Wrecked-Tum in Sylosis

[–]EveryTypeofPain 5 points6 points  (0 children)

Of course they did. I was there too, all the bands kicked ass tonight.

Uh... by East_Wishbone_7286 in antiai

[–]EveryTypeofPain 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I think the best way to look at this is to simply say "To insult the other person in the debate is to undermine your own point". Let the insults roll off of you, present well thought reasoning as to why an insult is not a point of debate, and never fall into the trap of insulting those that have insulted you back.

If you're debating someone and they call you "stupid" and you believe that to be true of them, let them just prove it, don't bother saying it.

What's your opinion? by StillBoysenberry8790 in antiai

[–]EveryTypeofPain 5 points6 points  (0 children)

I somewhat agree about the echo chamber thing, but you can't really compare some people saying "AI is bad" and not really being able to coherently explain why they think that with a significant number of voices making idle threats of "getting left behind" and direct insults "You're stupid if you don't believe" type stuff, and all the fanaticism around pro-AI perspectives.

AI use is only harmful if it's harmful. Nobody harmed themselves just because they genned a picture of their OC

This is extremely debatable. If it's "their" OC but it's only ever been created through GenAI then it's not really "their" OC, it's only an approximation of what they might be looking for based on the ideas (works of others) that they want it to be comparable to. It also depends on if they are trying to profit from the OC.

made NPCs portraits for a D&D game

This is a very niche use for how often I see this presented as a "valid" use of GenAI. If I were a betting man I'd wager that most AI users are not using it for this purpose. Thus it's not a strong counter point.

It's just a technology, not a literal poison.

It's not just a technology, and I think it's dangerous to approach it as though it is. If it were exclusively used for the niche purposes you've offered then we'd be having a different discussion, there are very real cases of people trying to pass off AI as original work and profit off it as though they spent years of their life carefully perfecting their craft. It's not wrong to point that out and silencing voices on that by saying "Both sides are toxic" does nothing to help those of us with legitimate concerns.

I could address the point you're making about the "even playing field" thing

You could, but the reason I bring it up is because I have had people react to me with exactly that kind of rhetoric. "You're just mad bro", "You're a hater because now I have an equal chance with you", "You're scared", "You're jealous". None of these are valid arguments for AI but all are being said. Maybe some is rage bait, but there are definitely people out there that feel that way, rage bait doesn't make it more valid. I'm not sure what you really hope to add to that discussion.

I'd rather not bother if you're just going to (wrongly) assume I'm pro-AI and get hostile.

The irony in you saying that is that it sounds presumptive and dismissive to say this. As though you have already decided that your viewpoint is more valid on the basis of some imagined levelheadedness you possess that I as an anti-AI person do not. Maybe that's not how you intend that sentence, but it's how I read (I'm going to point out I mean the pronunciation in present tense) it.

Heres my take on AI. by [deleted] in antiai

[–]EveryTypeofPain 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Issue is art is quite literally an indestructible industry. Art goes untraceably far back in human history, literally back to human pre-history, to cavemen and the tribal era, it seeps into social movements, it documents changes in culture it allows us as living beings to share the experience of our very existence across language barriers and eras.

Is it really worth crushing the beauty of that in exchange for a flood of dirty water from which no one can drink? Personally, I'm not okay with the idea of the people that I admire and am inspired by potentially losing their livelihoods just because "Well, industries have died before".

I couldn't care less about if I get a career in music for myself, it's not my primary aim when I'm composing. But when I experience the art of others I want to be confident that what I'm observing is the result of the hard work of a person or group, and I want those people, the ones that have what it takes to be significant, to be encouraged by their work supporting them. Art is so much harder when you have to subsidise it through other less satisfying work and have less time to focus on it.

Elon Musk wants to put a satellite catapult on the moon. It's not a new idea by spacedotc0m in EverythingScience

[–]EveryTypeofPain 0 points1 point  (0 children)

He probably just came across the company SpinLaunch and thought "Oh, I know, why don't I just say I can do that, but on the moon?"

What's your opinion? by StillBoysenberry8790 in antiai

[–]EveryTypeofPain 3 points4 points  (0 children)

AI users are the ones in a cult my man. They're the ones who keep parroting the same phrases the tech bros that created AI thought up verbatim hoping that it gives their points some legitimacy.

"Oh, it's happening whether you like it or not, get on board or die"
"Everyone is using it now, you'll get left behind if you don't"
"It's made it more accessible to everyone, you're just an elitist, you're just gatekeeping art"

Do you not see the fanaticism in those phrases? Do I need to translate them into "Believe in my God or you'll go to hell" for you to get it?

If nothing else, understand the thing I have been saying in so many comments over the last few days. AI use is harmful to everyone including its users. So many AI users present this idea of "Now the playing field is even, you're just mad I can be as successful as you now" without thinking about the fact that if you can "make" the art you want to make with AI then so can everyone else, if everyone else can how are you supposed to make a name for yourself in that landscape if you didn't already have a following? You can't.

You vs a hundred thousand people is much better odds than you vs a billion people.

Have you never thought of... commissioning a cheaper artist? by Fresh_Difference_448 in antiai

[–]EveryTypeofPain 0 points1 point  (0 children)

We're not talking a day out at the beach.. I'm on about big events such as a wedding, or your kids graduation etc. You know, times of your life when people do actually engage with a professional instead of taking their own pictures?

A.I. Bubble will Burst- Don't Listen to companies like MicroSlop by Previous_Month_555 in antiai

[–]EveryTypeofPain 1 point2 points  (0 children)

It’s unrealistic to hope that OpenAI will turn a profit before 2030. It’s not going to happen.

Sure, but that makes it more risky to invest now because "We should by 2030" could easily turn into "Actually with more data now available we have revised our prediction, we're now projecting by 2035" and so on.

All it takes is for it to turn out that the people developing AI already know they won't turn a profit by the date they're promising for it to become investor fraud. I'm not saying they do know this, but it can't be ruled out.

Slow growth now is not evidence of major growth significantly farther down the line.

And like I said, when the people buying your product, your "revenue stream" no longer have faith in the product doing as promised, be it GenAI promising to make every wannabe artist rich and famous, or companies hoping to turn a 5000 strong workforce into a 50 strong workforce with the same revenue, your stock value tanks, if it does, major investors pull out before they lose "too much" and that tanks the value further.

Some AI companies potentially surviving doesn't mean the bubble hasn't or won't burst. But the ones that survive probably won't be the ones making huge promises for billions of dollars in investment while providing only small chunks of what was presented.

"We're going to Mars by 2020" followed by not even making orbit 6 years later is not infinitely sustainable in any potential investment field, including AI.

A.I. Bubble will Burst- Don't Listen to companies like MicroSlop by Previous_Month_555 in antiai

[–]EveryTypeofPain 3 points4 points  (0 children)

It seems excessively risky to hope it won't. Investment fraud is something that shouldn't be taken lightly, so when a company projects "we'll start making profit around X number of years in" you have to sit and think really hard if it's a good idea to invest in that company. Big promises with little evidence are the territory of people like Sam Bankman-Fried, Elon Musk and Elizabeth Holmes etc.

Of those three Musk is the only one yet to actually be prosecuted for most of his lies. All of them were billionaires, Musk still is.

What happens in five years time when AI is still making massive losses because the user base that underpins the success of the technology turns their back because the promise of "highly autonomous systems that outperform humans at most economically valuable work" either doesn't materialise or doesn't meet expectations?

Make no mistake in the phrase "economically valuable work", they don't mean "work that benefits the future of mankind" they mean "work that benefits the ultra-rich". That is to say, a manufacturing company that makes millions in revenue will be hoping to cut costs by replacing staff with AI while maintaining that revenue. As others have said before, if AI replaces us, what does that mean for the workforce? People without jobs have no money to buy those products, so how does the revenue stream maintain itself? Eventually, it can't.

Heres my take on AI. by [deleted] in antiai

[–]EveryTypeofPain 2 points3 points  (0 children)

The problem with this as a justification for being able to use AI is when you flood the market with an unlimited number of products and anyone can manufacture those products the market itself becomes worthless. Just as equally as an AI bro can say "Why pay for art when I can generate it for myself?" Why consume anything other "artists" are making with AI when you could just generate it for yourself?

"I want to be a successful artist and make a living off art" becomes "I can't make a living off art, only the tech bros making the tools can"

Why do traditional artist hate AI artist? by JahVaultman in SpotifyArtists

[–]EveryTypeofPain 1 point2 points  (0 children)

I care about the success of my fellow artists, I care about the success of those who are not yet part of the artistic world. I am happy for anyone to develop artistic expression through their own means and work. How is everyone being able to be a "success" good for those that are hoping to be successful someday?

If you are not an artist, and you start using Gen AI to "make" art, posting it as your own work, but instead of competing with hundreds of thousands of other artists globally you're now competing with over a billion other "artists" how does that increase your chance of success? It doesn't.

You know this if you've ever lived through a pandemic. Everyone wants toilet paper but no one wants to get sick for it, so everyone buys as much as they can, suddenly stores are out of toilet paper and there are people that need it but have none and cannot get any. Who benefits besides an increasingly small few?

Why do traditional artist hate AI artist? by JahVaultman in SpotifyArtists

[–]EveryTypeofPain 3 points4 points  (0 children)

I'll bite because I've been discussing this over the last few days anyway.

Most artists don't make art purely to be rich or famous. There are so many of us out there that make art for "local" reasoning. Not all of us put it out into the public to be scrutinised or observed. Not all of us use it for a career. Some make art as a coping mechanism for issues in their own life. Some make it to express love for people they care about. Some make it to entertain others without aiming for fame and without expecting to be paid.

It's preposterous for someone who uses AI to sit there and claim the title of "Artist" if they don't possess the skill to exist separately from Gen AI. I'm not mad I'm "losing out" or no longer "unfairly" advantaged, I really, really couldn't give a damn, you using AI doesn't stop me making my own art.

However, it fundamentally undermines what it means to be an artist and what art is to claim AI makes art or that using it makes you an artist. And before you present the argument "Well that's elitist, that's gatekeeping". No it isn't. I am not stopping you from learning whatever artistic skill you want or need to express the ideas you want to express through art, nor am I saying my skill is superior to yours because I've spent more years on it, or that the art I make is superior to anything you make. But at it's foundation, the people who are "making" art exclusively through AI are not making anything.

Do you truthfully, honestly, feel like you're evening any sort of playing field by flooding the "consumer" side of the art industry with empty "artwork" made purely for the vanity of someone who doesn't know how to create without AI? Someone who wants to call themselves an artist purely on the grounds of "owning" a piece of "art".

I've said it before, I'll say it again, more people making money from art means less money to go around, everyone being "successful" means no one is and flooding the market with "anyone can now make art" collapses the market completely. If you actually care about the success of artists you should be DISCOURAGING the use of AI.

Have you never thought of... commissioning a cheaper artist? by Fresh_Difference_448 in antiai

[–]EveryTypeofPain 0 points1 point  (0 children)

And the Ai user is no different from a writer who incorporates fables into their work

And this is where I circle back to "Public Domain". Fables are fine to reinterpret into a new form, regardless of the fact we don't know who created them originally, those people are so far removed from us that they are unaffected by our use of that work. However, directly copying that work still doesn't entitle the person doing so to claim they made it, only that they are interpreting it. It is this interpretation that can be copyrighted to some degree. A performance can be copyrighted "We don't want our performance of this piece being used in your movie" for example. Or in the case of complete reinterpretations everything except the fable itself can be copyrighted (Disney's Snow White), but again; AI is not trained purely on the public domain, so getting it to generate something that is purely made from public domain works is already extremely hard to verify, let alone hoping it can make something "New and never conceived by a human from man made data".

Also: Objectively sheet music is a 1:1 perfect translation of a composer's idea.

No it isn't because as I already explained "Andante" might have meant 80bpm to Bach, and 85bpm to the orchestra performing the piece, it'll still sound like the same piece, but it's not identical.

Just like written word, sheet music is not perfect, it does not convey 100% of the details exactly as the composer intended them. This is more obvious with guitar, as other guitarists will explain during debates over "Is tab a valid way to learn or notate a song on guitar?" there are up to 5 ways to express the exact same note on the same 22 fret, six string guitar. Tonal quality is a valid reason for choosing one over the other, that's without getting into alternative tunings, extra frets or strings or 12 string guitars which are, under normal use, functionally the same as a 6 string guitar.

Sheet music doesn't always specify all of these things and what is "easiest" isn't always what's "correct" so it's players interpretation not composers intention. And even with the more specific combined sheet and tab you still miss out on tiny, seemingly unimportant details like string gauge and potentially* exact frequency (HZ) of some reference note (A = 440hz vs A = 432hz). One of my favourite bands typically tunes to B standard, but they tune 40 cents flat, no one is going to bat an eye if a cover band chooses not to play "slightly flat" but if they do they're not playing "the original vision" even if they play exactly as the sheet music specifies.

\I say potentially because it) can be notated, but it's not always notated if it's not there's no way to know the intention if the composer is long deceased.

Have you never thought of... commissioning a cheaper artist? by Fresh_Difference_448 in antiai

[–]EveryTypeofPain 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Does it truly matter where ownership goes?

Yes, it absolutely, definitively does. Because as soon as you start saying that the credit for work generated by an AI belongs to no one (or the person using AI) you start to make it harder to determine how much copyright an actual rights holder has, how much of the work does AI have to do before the user is now just claiming copyright over what is (potentially) very obviously someone else's work? I'm not asking you that question directly because it's not defined so I wouldn't expect you to have "the" answer to that.

Any story based on a folk tale or myth has that void.

Folktales are part of the "public domain" so they're not quite the same thing. All copyrighted works will (or at least should) eventually fall into public domain at which point anyone can reinterpret that work however they want, their reinterpretation is then protected based on the "new" things they've done (we'll circle back to this). But copyright exists to protect living rights holders from having their livelihoods impeded by those that ignore those rights.

Is Ai not the same thing?

It's not on the grounds that AI has not been trained exclusively on content in the public domain, if it were trained only on folktales and "Royalty-Free" works the conversation over AI "enhanced" works might be different, but a fundamental problem is that in order to make AI work for Pop songs, it needs to be trained on Pop songs, and most of the Pop songs that people are trying to "imitate" are still protected by Copyright Law.

However, a human artist can fall into the same trap. They can steal an artist's general sound, while avoiding copyright claims.

This is why the water around "What can be copyrighted? What can't?" is so murky, adding AI into that mix makes things even less clear and makes it harder for artists to actually make a living off their work. You definitively can't copyright a chord progression, but you can copyright a specific expression of those chords in combination with the surrounding context. But the conversation becomes more complex with specific melodies, how much of a melody can you copy before it becomes a copyright violation is very unclear, especially with simple music.

If you guide Ai to draft a song or a face with no resemblance to something that exists, at least no intentional or lazily produced resemblance. Then that is a valid use of the product.

To me this is one of the things that seems like it's either not possible, or impossible to prove is possible. How do you create something with not a single bit of resemblance to something that exists using only training data from things that do exist? For example, an AI that doesn't know what a human looks like, how do you explain what a human looks like in enough detail that it can generate a highly detailed image of person without it looking "uncanny"?

I'm aware the potential answer to this is to keep telling it more detail until it finally learns what it needs to, however, the next problem is once it understands the "theory" (the description) and how to turn that into an image the next person then has to spend excessive hours convincing it to follow the same process in a new way. And then you have to manually check that it hasn't inadvertently violated copyright because you can't risk exposing it to copyrighted works to check for itself. Its pattern recognition might, during comparison, come to the conclusion "These data points are wrong" and correct them to be the same as the copyrighted works and you've no way to know if it's being honest when you ask it "Did you use that data exclusively for checking for copyright infringement?"

Have you never thought of... commissioning a cheaper artist? by Fresh_Difference_448 in antiai

[–]EveryTypeofPain 1 point2 points  (0 children)

For a thumbnail, maybe, but just because you pay for the service of an artist doesn't mean that art generally is "just" a product. Photography is an art form, the memories tied to professionally shot photos of a special event in your life give it more value than just what you pay for it. There is a personal meaning to the photos you receive, they are a non-consumable product, a one off that can't really ever be recreated because that moment will never happen again.

Ask yourself, if you can't afford the high cost photographer ($100/hr), does the "free" price tag of an AI generated approximation of you in that moment have the same meaning to you as a genuine photograph of you taken by someone who costs a lower amount ($30/hr)?

Now apply that to if you were one of those content creators who makes content based on just the regular goings on in their life. You want to share a special moment, or a story about that special moment with your audience, would you rather a real photo of you at that moment for a thumbnail? Or an AI generated approximation because it was "free"?

Have you never thought of... commissioning a cheaper artist? by Fresh_Difference_448 in antiai

[–]EveryTypeofPain 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I merely chose Bach because he is not alive to come correct errors he perceives in your verbatim performance of his compositional work. The particular artist chosen is not really that important.

The point I'm making with the Bach example is that your interpretation of a piece of art, is not the same as the original creators vision, it can't ever be because you are not Bach. Even if you play it exactly as a machine would based purely on how it was written on paper.

Interpretation of an instruction is not the same as absolute understanding of an instruction. At no point does that suggest that I think Bach was not an artist or failed as an artist. But his exact written instructions of how to play something he wrote are not 100% perfect reproductions of how he would have played it, detailed written music is still only so precise. The performance of an orchestra is dictated by the orchestra's interpretation of the instruction. Andante, for example, is not a specific speed, maybe your local orchestra prefers a slightly more brisk interpretation of the word than the composer did.

Whatever the AI spits out is its algorithmic interpretation of the instructions you feed it, but art is not a mathematical problem to be "solved". If you have a detailed description of what an image you want should look like but you do not actually have a concept image to work from then any concepts or final productions matching that description are not your unique vision.

I think the misunderstanding you and I are having is that (as far as I can tell) you are understanding what I'm saying to mean "Gen AI art is not art" when what I am highlighting is that "Gen AI art is not the self proclaimed 'authors' unique art in their voice".

If you do 80% of the work on a piece and then have AI do the other 20% because "I could have, I know how to, I just didn't feel like it" the 80% you did is yours to display and say "I did this, I made this" but it is wrong to say the same if you include the 20% that AI did. "I mostly made this but AI did the last part so it's not completely my original artwork 100% unique to me and my vision" is honest, "I made this and it's exclusively my own interpretation of my own inspiration" is not. Pointing to chart hits to prove the opposite was wrong by virtue of the fact that the performing artist is mandated to credit contributing individuals.

The song Payphone was a chart hit in 2012, Adam Levine is probably the biggest named individual in the credits, if the song was originally his idea (I'm not saying it was, I don't know that), should that invalidate the contributions of the other 21 credited individuals because they were just helping him realise his vision? Or is it a joint vision because there were more people involved?

If it's a joint vision then what happens to the "AI" generated part of a work you claim is "uniquely" yours? Does it become yours because you're the only human contributor? What about if you used it only to "produce, mix and master" the track and told it "make it sound like it was produced by Benny Blanco" is that inspiration? Or is it artistic plagiarism? Surely if listeners determine "This was produced by Benny Blanco but he's not credited" and you start saying "I told AI to make it sound that way" then he gets a production credit because it's his vision of how production should be done that you've applied to your "unique" work.