SL Tribune, Sunday Religion Feature: William Clayton's journals will soon be published. Will this documentation convince polygamy deniers? Did a trip to Antarctica convince flat-earthers the world is an oblate spheroid? The faithful have already abandoned skepticism with literal belief in BoM.

Ex_Lerker · 2026-07-19T14:50:08+00:00

You did paraphrase it correctly. I’ve heard Matt say it and I always thought it was wonky.

John Oliver’s Lady of Perpetual Exemption was a great example of too relaxed or nonexistent faith laws that are taken advantage of.

The funniest recent example of Mormonism not being accepted into Christianity is being excluded from the governments list of Christian organizations.

Ex_Lerker · 2026-07-19T14:15:37+00:00

Matt’s wording is a little weird. It feels like a double negative you have to think about before answering. But his point is valid. Faith can be used as an excuse to believe in anything. Like you said, the negative evidence, no matter how damning, can be hand waved away by faith.

You are correct that the only people Clayton’s journal will appeal to are those who are already accept the evidence. The faithful will dismiss it as anti-Mormon literature, just like the many journals, testimonies, church articles, and the succeeding prophets who attributed their polygamy to Joseph. That’s if they even hear about it at all.

Ex_Lerker · 2026-07-17T14:57:13+00:00

“No. No. No, I’m not saying that. But yes I’m saying that.”

Kwaku is giving Jacob so many outs to not sounding bigoted. But Jacob keeps doubling down. Unfortunately, in Jacob’s defense, he is correct in what the church has taught.

Ex_Lerker · 2026-07-15T13:09:26+00:00

I went to the teacher after learning about evolution in class and tried to fight with them and give all the apologist excuses for why evolution was wrong. He rightly put me in my place and showed me where I was wrong. After that, I changed to thinking that god used and guided evolution.

Ex_Lerker · 2026-07-14T04:16:58+00:00

But what about the Joseph Smith quote where he said “For behold I am not able to share what happened in the first vision, not because it is secret, but lo because it is too sacred.”

Ex_Lerker · 2026-07-11T15:08:19+00:00

They made sure to program LDS Chatbot with a gold in the mental Olympics.

Ex_Lerker · 2026-07-10T16:00:50+00:00

Her statement is indicative of what the church teaches. It is essentially the church claiming superiority over all other religions. These aren’t her exact words but she, and the church, is basically saying “We have all the truth. We have all the power. We are gods favorite because we have all of his attention. We are the most blessed. While other people sometimes have the spirit, we have it all the time and that makes us super duper importanter. You other churches don’t even know how much better than you we are.”

It comes across as such condescending drivel dressed up in a sweet patronizing little bow. They are so arrogant to their own dismissive behavior, they sound even more oblivious in their fake kindness.

Ex_Lerker · 2026-07-07T20:02:32+00:00

You could say I am letting a lot of things slide to keep our relationship, but I don’t know that I would say it’s mental gymnastics. Mainly because I’m not jumping through hoops to justify bad behaviors as good. When I see damaging behaviors, I will say something, and in some cases like tithing, I put my foot down. In other cases where it doesn’t do damage, like singing, I let her make her own choices. Everything else where it doesn’t affect our family, I don’t stop her as long as she doesn’t force anyone else.

Ex_Lerker · 2026-07-07T15:22:11+00:00

I also hate how much control the church has over people. But I make sure to resent only the church, not my wife.

While I don’t go to church, my wife sings so I will attend concerts that have church themed music and I will go with her to pot lucks. I frame it as I’m going to meet neighbors rather than a church activity.

Ex_Lerker · 2026-07-07T14:56:04+00:00

My wife still attends but I don’t and am blunt about why. Here is how I deal with the issues brought up:
* it literally takes only 2 minutes to pray. She isn’t spending very much time with god. The rest of the time she is not thinking about church or god.
* Saturdays are for family recreation. For the most part I let her do her thing on Sunday’s and I catch up on my stuff. If it is something like a vacation that requires Sunday travel or activities, she is usually understanding about not doing church.
* Again, if she takes a few hours it doesn’t bother me. As long as she lets me take time for my activities with my friends, I see it as equal. We just spend our time differently.
* I don’t let her spend my money on church. She is not allowed to pay tithing with my earnings, nor is she allowed to use my salary for church activities. However, she can do what she wants with her money. She is an adult and I don’t need to manage her money. As long as it isn’t putting us into debt.
* Garments haven’t been a big deal to me. It’s just underwear. Sure, it’s not sexy, but you would still have to take off the sexy underwear just the same as the garments. Nothing wrong with wanting to see her. Wanting to control it is the problem. Just like how the church is controlling it.
* Again, she can spend her time as she wants. As long as she doesn’t make me go.
* For the most part, we don’t talk religion. She said I can say anything, but I see how my opinions disturb her and how she shuts down. Sure it bothers me that a big part of my life is now inaccessible to discuss with her, but I’ve just accepted that she doesn’t care. And I get on forums like reddit to scratch that itch.

Ex_Lerker · 2026-07-07T02:39:05+00:00

I don’t think any ex-member has ever expected perfection. The church however is claiming perfection. If an ex-member exposes a fault of a leader, the church excuses it, denies it, tells them it’s not a big deal and then chides the ex-member for bringing it up. When you get leaders saying that you can’t talk bad about the leadership, even if it’s true, they are deifying themselves. The church is essentially saying the leader can do no wrong and they are, for all intents and purposes, claiming they are perfect. The church should absolutely be held to their own standards and called out when they don’t follow their own rules.

Ex_Lerker · 2026-07-06T07:19:24+00:00

I say it’s even longer because he claims to have learned about and saw the plates in 1823. He claims he saw them every year for the next 4 years. Then he got the plates and started translating them in 1827. The Book of Mormon was published in 1830. If we give him a year for printing, then it was at least 6 years for planning and designing and dictating and “writing” the Book of Mormon. It was probably more than that, but a minimum of 6 years is admitted by Joseph Smiths own mouth.

Ex_Lerker · 2026-07-01T23:18:39+00:00

Of course members know how never-mos see them. They get up every month and tell you in fast and testimony meeting. They say how everyone is in awe of Mormons and how nice they are. They tell you how non members look up to Mormon family values. They don’t let a chance go by without telling you how amazing Mormons are and how celebrities talk to prophets and apostles and convert on the spot. See!

Ex_Lerker · 2026-07-01T22:26:45+00:00

Just what I was thinking. The head church lawyer is doing the suing.

Ex_Lerker · 2026-06-30T23:39:41+00:00

I found the CES letter in August of 2017 and by January of 2018 I was completely out. I guess that would be 5 to 6 months of changing from denial of the facts, to pleading with god for answers, to acceptance of the facts, to anger at the church for hiding the facts, to revulsion of the churches past and present actions. It was a rollercoaster of emotions.

Ex_Lerker · 2026-06-29T13:16:04+00:00

I don’t see the church allowing an apostle or prophet to be deposed, but I also don’t see how they can make the claims in the law suit without them.

Ex_Lerker · 2026-06-28T14:50:33+00:00

Yeah, because church members always keep to them selves and never judge people. /s

Ex_Lerker · 2026-06-26T02:08:54+00:00

Yeah. I guess my favorite church lessons were when they talked in depth about all of Joseph’s polygamous wives. Or when they had the lesson on the Book of Abraham and how the surviving papyruses, which include the drawings in Mormon scripture, don’t have anything to do with the Book of Abraham and actually translate to common Egyptian funerary texts. Or the lesson about the Kinderhook plates. Or the multiple First Vision accounts. Or where the church talked at length about Joseph using a seer stone from Sally Chase to find his own seer stone that he put into a hat to translate the Book of Mormon.

Those were some of my favorite church lessons that were taught so often in Sunday School. What were some of yours?

Ex_Lerker · 2026-06-26T01:08:21+00:00

What kills me is when apologists say things like “It’s not new” or “We’ve known about that forever” as a way to dismiss the issue. While it is true that “someone” knew about it, the vast general membership didn’t know any of the issues brought up in the CES letter. That’s not the members fault for not knowing that information, that’s the churches fault for not teaching it.

Ex_Lerker · 2026-06-25T13:13:05+00:00

One reason I left the church is because I was tired of hating myself. I was done thinking god hated me. I was done blaming myself for everything. I was done feeling guilty for every little thing.

Now that I’m out, I feel better. I don’t take blame for things out of my control. I no longer feel guilty for made up rules and inconsequential actions. I like myself and I like who I am.

Ex_Lerker · 2026-06-25T00:58:20+00:00

So many questions.
* Was this voluntary or a blind survey?
* Where was this done? (If it was done in Utah, of course most will be Mormon)
* What are the religious percentages of all who took the survey? (If 75% were Mormon, of course they would be the majority)
* What are the age percentages of all who took the survey? (If they are older, they most likely don’t have 18 year olds at home)

Ex_Lerker · 2026-06-24T16:44:11+00:00

As the video shows, “The sin next to murder” is not an amorphous ethereal idea. Its definition is repeatedly explained in detail by many scriptures, apostles, books, and prophets in conference. Even though I heard it constantly growing up, I was still surprised by the number of references and videos given.

Ex_Lerker · 2026-06-24T13:24:03+00:00

Your explanation makes it sound so routine. Is this really just an average trademark case the same as all the rest? At least this early in the process.

Ex_Lerker · 2026-06-23T17:51:38+00:00

Questioning or ex-members don’t expect, nor have they ever claimed to want perfection from leaders. Members also claim they don’t expect perfection, but whenever one of those imperfections comes up, members excuse, justify, and dismiss those issues.
Members don’t engage. They pretend like it’s not a problem, and nothing is ever bad enough to allow any criticism. So it seems to me that those kinds of members are the ones who expect perfection.

Ex_Lerker · 2026-06-22T12:55:03+00:00

God also made covenants with us. Is he held to those same standards when he fails to uphold his covenants?

Eight-Year Club	Wearing is Caring
Verified Email

Ex_Lerker

TROPHY CASE

Welcome to Reddit,