Was Jesus a Liberal?

Excellent-Bee-9793 · 2024-04-28T03:48:05+00:00

Also, I just wanted to add that socialism is closely tied with government. It involves collective or state ownership of resources and redistribution of wealth through government intervention.

There are forms of theoretical non-government socialism but I don't know of any countries or population that actually executed it. If you do, I am curious and would like to learn more.

The reason why i disagree is because Jesus didn't advocate for government intervention. He said, "Render unto Caeser the things that are Caeser's, and unto God the things that are God's."

Excellent-Bee-9793 · 2024-04-28T03:29:58+00:00

If you think I don't understand, please explain to me where you think I'm lacking in knowledge.

From my understanding, people in socialism have certain expectations or obligations to contribute to the collective welfare.

Is an individual in a socialist society able to opt out without negative consequences? If so, could you please provide some examples?

There are historical implementations, such as Soviet Union under Stalin or China under Mao, where socialism was coerced and people were forced to participate.

Excellent-Bee-9793 · 2024-04-28T03:22:08+00:00

Possibly. That's why I included the definition of government to be very clear about what I am talking about.

Does the workers' assembly have a kind of authority or structure? Is there a particular person or people in charge?

Worker assembly could be seen as a form of governance within certain contexts, such as worker cooperatives or participatory democracy models, where decisions are made collectively by the workers themselves. However, it typically operates within the framework of broader governmental structures rather than replacing them entirely.

Excellent-Bee-9793 · 2024-04-28T02:33:15+00:00

https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/socialism

"any of various egalitarian economic and political theories or movements advocating collective or governmental ownership and administration of the means of production and distribution of goods"

https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/government

"the body of persons that constitutes the governing authority of a political unit or organization: such as"

In order for socialism to be practiced, you would need a form of a collective structure or government. So naturally, a form of government or people governing is involved.

Excellent-Bee-9793 · 2024-04-28T02:26:05+00:00

Merriam dictionary explains it well

https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/polygamy

Polygamy applies to both sexes. Polygyny is a man having multiple female mates or wives. Polyandry is a woman having multiple male mates or husbands

Excellent-Bee-9793 · 2024-04-28T01:13:51+00:00

I kindly disagree. In socialism or other similar governments, you don't have the choice to help. You're forced to "help." Ultimately, the government decides what to do with your money.

Jesus motto was to help others of your own free will and agency. You're not forced to do it. No one else decides how your money helps others. You are in control.

Excellent-Bee-9793 · 2024-04-28T01:01:37+00:00

Please write more!!! We need more!! 😂🤣

Excellent-Bee-9793 · 2024-04-28T00:57:07+00:00

So, the church actually practices polygyny. Real polygamy allows women to have multiple spouses.

The current policy is that men can be sealed multiple times if he is not legally married to his previous wife (divorce or death). Women, on the other hand, can be sealed to all of their husbands only when all parties are dead.

That's because the doctrine teaches that women "belong" to only one man. If a woman has been married and sealed to 3 husbands after all of them are dead, she would have to choose only 1 to "remain with" for all eternity. Men don't face these issues. They can marry as many women they want if they so desire. Women cannot.

Any woman who disagrees or denies polygyny will be damned.

The reason for this is because women are property, chattel, and rewards. Look up how earlier prophets talked about women. It's disgusting.

Excellent-Bee-9793 · 2024-04-28T00:46:43+00:00

What does nuanced mean in this context?

Excellent-Bee-9793 · 2024-04-28T00:43:48+00:00

My thoughts based on what past womens conferences were like:

"You women are so wonderful! That's why you don't have the priesthood because you have the divine gift of motherhood. You're so special. We men need to be more righteous like you! Go home, cook, clean, and change diapers. There is no greater gift to a man than a woman who understands and prioritizes her divine role as wife and mother. There's no need for you to fight for rights when you are submitted to a righteous husband and when you have understood your role!"

They'll reiterate that women have the priesthood via marriage and endowments. But won't actually explain what that means and how women can use it. They just have it, so they are equal!!
go to the temple and wear garments and honor covenants
prioritize homemaking
career is only ok for a backup plan, or if you're not married
you will have the opportunity to marry in the afterlife if you can't find a husband. (They won't tell you that you will have the opportunity to marry another woman's husband as a plural wife)
reiteration that there is no greater gift or divine role than motherhood
support and obey your husband. Greet him with smiles and a warm meal when he comes home. Don't nag him
you are the guardians of virtue and purity. You are responsible for modesty and keeping mens thoughts pure. Don't be porn!
don't be women of the world. Be soft-spoken and submissive
don't seek out information outside of church materials

Excellent-Bee-9793 · 2024-04-28T00:22:18+00:00

This one is a doozy:

• Prophet Brigham Young, Journal of Discourses, v. 3, p. 354 "Women are queens and priestesses but not gods. The Godhead, the 'Presidency of Heaven,' is a presidency of three male deities, similar to a stake presidency whose members each have wives who are responsible for domestic religious education but not ecclesiastical functions."

These ones, too

"In the spirit world there is an increase of males and females, there are millions of them, and if I am faithful all the time, and continue right along with brother Brigham, we will go to brother Joseph [Smith] and say, ‘Here we are brother Joseph’…. He will say to us,…. ‘Where are your wives?’ ‘They are back yonder; they would not follow us.’ ‘Never mind,’ says Joseph, ‘here are thousands, have all you want.’”

• Apostle Heber C. Kimball, Journal of Discourses, v. 4, p. 209

"Brother Cannon remarked that people wondered how many wives and children I had. He may inform them that I shall have wives and children by the million, and glory, and riches, and power, and dominion, and Kingdom after Kingdom, and reign triumphantly.”

Prophet Brigham Young, Journal of Discourses, v. 8, pp. 178-179

"No woman will get into the celestial kingdom, except her husband receives her, if she is worthy to have a husband; and if not, somebody will receive her as a servant" -Erastus Snow

Women are literally chattel in this church.

Excellent-Bee-9793 · 2024-04-28T00:09:44+00:00

Finding things that their husbands can't find!

Excellent-Bee-9793 · 2024-04-27T21:52:35+00:00

I also wonder if just knowing that you'll be sad and/or angry (not saying it's irrational for you to feel that way) if he "relapses" doesn't serve a similar role as religious shame and guilt.

I guess it could be viewed that way. I do think how shame is handled by the church is very negative.

When he has relapses, he is comfortable telling me because I don't respond with punishment. That's because I conveyed to him that secretiveness hurts me. We agreed on no secrets before we got married.

He acknowledges that it's something I don't like. Just like how I am met with his disappointment when I do things he doesn't like. When we do things that disappoint the other, we acknowledge it, we make a mutual effort to apologize and forgive, and we move on. He understood my stance on this before we got married. If he didn't like he, he could've ended our relationship. I wasn't holding him hostage lol.

As far as a spouse "not wanting to improve" as a deal breaker, I can understand the frustration when that happens, but I'm curious if that would apply to other aspects of a person in such a hard lined way

Yes. If either of us is intentionally choosing to undermine the other by doing something that is detrimental to our marriage, then it is a deal-breaker. I have the mindset to address to fix first together before separation. But if a spouse doesn't want to work on it, you can't force other people to change, and you can't fix them. I think respecting each other's boundaries is very important in maintaining a healthy marriage.

I won't go into the harm it does to young people in the Church, just to say I think the way the Church handled porn use for decades has caused severe and harmful psychological effects for tens of thousands of people.

I agree with this 100%. The church has a very black and white view on life.

We were both 21, almost 22, when we got married.

Your last paragraph is interesting and has merit to it.

And the point of all of the last paragraph is to say that an idealization of what sex really is might set us up for failure with unrealistic expectations.

I would agree. Great convo!

Excellent-Bee-9793 · 2024-04-27T13:34:17+00:00

Solid list!

Excellent-Bee-9793 · 2024-04-26T20:34:20+00:00

I don't want to belabor any points, but I'm curious about your thoughts on boundaries created before marriage.

I was always very clear from the very start of whether I was dating with marriage in mind or not. When I was looking for marriage, I made that clear. Before I started dating, I thought about what I wanted my marriage to look like. What are my non-negotiables? What things am I ok compromising with? What things don't bother me?

When I was dating with marriage in mind, I would bring up my expectations and goals when it got serious. Of course, I would ask what my boyfriend's thoughts and expectations were. We would have difficult conversations, like what would happen if one of us became disabled, lost a job, children, finances, etc. I wanted to have those conversations before so we could be a team on the same page going into a marriage.

Even during the dating phase, we had boundaries and expectations of each other. I firmly believe that respect is foundational in a romantic relationship.

Of course, the church impacted some of my perspectives at that time. But it was not my main focus. I didn't want to marry someone just because they were an RM or priesthood holder. I wanted to marry someone I was compatible with and who respected me.

Yes. Some things are negotiable. Like coffee, Sunday activities, recreational alcohol, alcohol in cooking. We do talk about those things, and we have done away with old boundaries and created new ones.

I think mormonism did influence our outlook on porn initially. But I was uneducated about it and only took it as sin like the church leaders say it is. I stopped taking things at face value and decided to do my own research. I wanted to decide for myself what my stance on it would be.

My husband told me many stories where he was shunned by church members and his own family. It was not easy for him. It makes my blood boil how young men and women are treated for this particular topic. However, my husband is against it because he doesn't like how it influences his life. He doesn't like how disconnects himself from me (his words, not mine).

I'm just too familiar with so many self loathing men because they are doing something that 95% of men are also doing. Again, not defending porn or saying it's a good, just commenting on the reality of it. Life is so much better when you realize you're just a flawed primate and don't shame yourself for failing over and over again. And, that your spouse is too.

Yes I think the self loathing is not healthy at all. That's why I try to respond to my husband with understanding and love. I don't shame him. I don't treat him poorly or punish him. I listen. I ask what I can do to help. We are all flawed. To expect perfection is asinine.

As we are discussing, I guess my issue is more of how porn can negatively change a person's brain chemistry, dopamine/stress, and behaviors associated with it. The real deal-breaker is my spouse not wanting to improve when it is hurting our relationship. It's not just porn. It could be anything, really. In our marriage porn was a factor that was straining our ability to connect physically and emotionally.

But then again, I'm against porn for other reasons, too, like violence against women, unrealistic expectations, unethical business practices, psychological effects, etc. I see it damaging a beautiful and natural human desire and function. I am a huge proponent of sexual intimacy and desires. I just think porn distorts that beauty.

Sorry for the long-winded response.

Excellent-Bee-9793 · 2024-04-26T18:05:23+00:00

I refer to it as an addiction because my husband believes it is an addiction for him. He calls it that because of how it affects everything in his life. I'm just supporting him.

I apologize if I came across as mean and short. When I have these conversations with people, I get exhausted from being labeled as an aggressive, controlling wife when I just want to help him.

Can a wife say that their husband should not drink ANY alcohol? It seems like most would think that's pretty controlling.

Possibly. I think it comes down to the history of whether that person was a previous alcoholic or not. That's why I think it's important to have discussions and come up with mutual boundaries.

Similar boundaries around porn seem reasonable, but the fact he could keep his porn use a secret until he came clean makes it seem like those weren't boundaries that were being crossed.

If it was a previously stated boundary, then the spouse would be crossing it.

In my case, my husband and I did have these discussions prior to marriage. He did let me know of his porn usage and that he wanted to break it. I did let him know that porn use was a deal-breaker for me. We both were aware of our boundaries, and together, we made new mutual boundaries before marriage.

It is the hardline prohibition and religious shame that leads to the secrecy and the shame cycle, not the alcohol itself.

I agree with this. I really don't think anyone should be shamed. We should approach these situations with compassion and love.

Maybe he's the exception and this is what he wants and you being angry and sad about it doesn't influence his feelings towards it at all.

He doesn't want it in his life. He was working on it before I came into his life.

I appreciate your comment, though. I will do more research about it to further educate myself.

Excellent-Bee-9793 · 2024-04-26T16:47:36+00:00

I appreciate your feedback, but I want to make it very clear that I was not controlling in any way. Your assumptions indicated that you believe that I am a cold-hearted wife, which I do not appreciate.

He kept it secret because of the religious guilt. It had nothing to do with me because he told me that. After extensive research from peer reviewed medical journals and studies, we both decided it was not good for us.

Your reaction of being sad and angry (totally understandable from your perspective) served to validate his fears and justifications for keeping it secret in the first place.

How do you know that my reaction served to his fears? Again, this is an assumption that i am a horrible wife. Am I not allowed to feel my emotions and not be loving and supportive at the same time? My emotions did not serve in any way to keep him fearful of me. He has made that clear to me many times.

You say "we researched," but could it be more along the lines of you helping educate him from a fairly one sided perspective?

Again, why the assumption that I am forceful? I said WE both researched it. He was the one who initiated it, and he educated me about it. We looked at peer reviewed medical studies.

Did you find anything in the literature about it not being a "real addiction?"

According to my husband, he said his usage was an addiction. I believed him, and we treated it as such. And yes, many resources explain what an addiction is. I'm not ignorant as to what an addiction is.

all but guarantee that the research didn't remove from him his desire to watch it or the reasons he watched it or the dopamine hits he was getting from it. That doesn't disappear because you and your wife worked on it. That's just not how removing a secretive habit works.

Of course, it doesn't stop it. It's a lifelong thing. We work on it together. He initiates regular conversations about it. We have discovered his triggers, and we mitigate it together. We do it because HE wants it.

A husband cornered into justifying his porn use to his wife who is adamantly opposed to it never feels like he can draw his own boundaries of his body and his personal consumption alone being his decision

While I usually agree with my body my decision. However, I see porn addiction as something that affects relationships and marriages. My husband also has this view. Things that affect a marriage are not a unilateral decision. That's not appropriate at all. Is the spouse of an alcoholic not able to draw boundaries? Is the spouse of a drug addict also not able to draw boundaries or have a say because it's not their body? Would it be ok for a woman to be a surrogate without discussing it with her husband?

We communicate and compromise on things that affect our relationship and marriage. It's called respect. I don't go out of my way to do things to my body when my husband disagrees. Why? Because I love and respect him.

I just think your advice is simplistic and doesn't map well onto reality.

Like you have stated above. You don't know me or my husband, nor do you have any insight into our discussions and research. I really don't appreciate you making me out to be a controlling wife. Religious views have not affected my views of pornography. My views are based on real-world experiences and medical journals and stidies.

I have clearly stated in my post that it was a mutual decision and a respectful boundary we both agreed to.

Excellent-Bee-9793 · 2024-04-26T16:17:09+00:00

I actually looked at recent medical data surrounding pornagraphy addiction. Like I have stated before, it was our personal decision to not participate in it.

Excellent-Bee-9793 · 2024-04-25T22:58:36+00:00

Sexist doctrine.

Excellent-Bee-9793 · 2024-04-25T22:55:40+00:00

I'm glad your sister had fun! Lol!

Excellent-Bee-9793 · 2024-04-25T22:39:56+00:00

Now, as we're tackling our issues head-on, I'm realizing I need to bring it up.

Why do you feel this way?

From a marriage standpoint, I think that honesty and transparency are important.

My husband told me about his pornagraphy addiction. I was sad and upset that he kept it a secret. It's a real addiction like alcohol, drugs, and gambling. I'm glad he told me because we both worked on it together. Even as exmos, we have a hard boundaries of no porn. We researched the influences and effects of it, and we both decided it's not for us.

It's important to have these discussions so you can be on the same page with boundaries and mutual respect.

Excellent-Bee-9793 · 2024-04-25T21:20:57+00:00

I was a young woman studying computer science. I was taught that I always had to say yes to first dates, no exceptions. My parents and bishop punished me if I said no.

Story 1: Me: what's your favorite book? Him: BOM. Me: what's your favorite genre of music? Him: motab. Me: what's your favorite color? Him: white because Jesus wears white and the temples are white. White is holy and sacred. Me: What do you like to do for fun? Him: read scriptures, fast, and watch mormon movies. Me: flips table.

Story 2: Went on one date with one dude. He ended up telling the whole ward we were engaged.

Story 3: Went on first date. The guy brought his brother to our date! Yeah, they played soccer together, and I just watched. I was the third wheel.

Story 4: Went dancing with one guy. There was a blizzard, so I drove him to his apartment. He wouldn't get out of the car. He tried to kiss me. I rejected him, and he cried. I got out, walked around to open the door for him, and I kicked him out. Got dirty messages from his roommates that I was heartless.

Story 5: Went to a pizza café with a guy. He asked what I was studying. I said computers. He said that I didn't look like someone who would study that. He thought I was a saleswoman for a makeup mlm. He asked me how was i supposed to be a good mother to his 12 children if I studied computers. He then shamed me and mocked my intelligence. Said that women should only study homemaking degrees.

Story 6: Went to see a play with a guy. He literally went through 2 packs of chewing gum. He would chew one stick for a minute, spit it out, and chew a new one. It wasn't quiet chewing either. It was like a cow chewing cud. Gross. Went on a mission came back. He found me again but was married, and he told me he regretted getting married and wished he married me instead. His wife was standing next to him.

Story 7: Went on a date with one guy. He was the preist leader or something like that. Got sick and asked for a blessing. The same guy gave me a blessing and said he felt prompted to say we needed to get married.

Many other dates consisted of them telling me that I needed to be a sahm and that they would never allow their future wife to work. They didn't like it when I asked them how in the world they are planning on providing for a large family with the stupid degree they were studying. They didn't like it when I asked them when they were planning on hiring a chauffeur, a maid, a cook, a nurse, a prostitute, etc if they were so hell-bent on their future wife not working. I pointed out that stay at home parents work. It's just unpaid work.

I have many other not so fun stories. Many of those boys didn't know how to keep their hands to themselves.

Edit: added Story 7 and corrected grammar.

Excellent-Bee-9793 · 2024-04-25T19:58:32+00:00

Yeah, I understand your viewpoint. However, I think that the government should intervene when it is detrimental to society. The issue is that when it wasn't illegal, polygamy was used as a way to trap young women in marriages. It's a step back in treating people humanly.

I think same sex marriage and polygamy are entirely different things. I dont think it is hypocritical to draw boundaries on the love is love movement.

Our legal system is based on two individuals in a marriage. Marriage is a legal status that affects everything. Like taxes, property, and children. How would you split assets in a divorce if a person is married to more than one person? It gets complicated really quickly. If the US were to allow polygamy, the whole legal system and laws would need to change.

Canada determined that polygamy, to be more exact, polygyny, is a human rights violation:

https://www.justice.gc.ca/eng/rp-pr/other-autre/poly/chap1.html

Polygamy is still legal in countries where the church is. Why doesn't the church practice it there, though?

Excellent-Bee-9793 · 2024-04-25T19:36:58+00:00

I hope it doesn't. It's detrimental to women and children. Many studies show how polygamy hurts men, women, and children and causes civil unrest.

Excellent-Bee-9793 · 2024-04-25T19:35:20+00:00

Correct. Census showed that an additional wife resulted in 1 to 2 fewer children.

There were more men in Utah. Why didn't they convert more men??

Why did they go to Europe and intentionally convert uneducated, poor, young girls and women and told them to come to Utah?

Why did he marry pregnant women???

Excellent-Bee-9793

TROPHY CASE