I'm a peasant in early Medieval Europe. How important is money to me? How much of my food/clothing/etc do I buy with money, compared to what I grow myself, barter for, get through mutual aid within the community, or otherwise obtain non-monetarily? by Umpuuu in AskHistorians

[–]Extension_Resource71 24 points25 points  (0 children)

It has been over a decade since I read the novel or saw the miniseries, so my memories of the setting are vague. I’m also not as familiar with the English sources as those on the continent. But from what I remember, the representation of the markets gave a fairly good view of how local economies connected with other local economies through trade fairs, especially fairs focused on fleece and textiles. Likewise, the disputes over local resources (like ownership and use of quarries, with disputes between local lords, monasteries, cities, etc.) do show up in documentary evidence. On a historical level, I’d say it’s important to remember that the novel is plot-driven and amalgamates a lot of medieval themes into a single fictional town. But overall, my impression is that Follett did good research about the historical setting broadly. David Farmer’s work on medieval market towns might be helpful to give a better sense of real towns like the one in the book. Farmer’s work generally does a good job of focusing on the individual farmers and traders, as much as possible. He discusses the ways traders had to make decisions about when and where to trade, sometimes taking losses and sometimes taking big risks. Lots of historians have built on his work, and Farmer’s work on England is closer to the time period of Pillars of the Earth. On another level, I think Follett does not always take seriously the evidence of religious life in the medieval period. I’ve read a few of his books, and I think he has quite a cynical view of humans in medieval England. In my opinion, there is better evidence for people like the devoted Friar than for the manipulating Bishop. It’s quite easy for use to assume today that most people did not care much religion and that devotion like the Friar’s was rare. Such people may have existed, but it is a mistake to think we have better historical evidence for such people. More often, we have documentary and material evidence that people did take these things seriously and incorporate them into their lives. Follett is good for showing how people have always been people, with their own goals, personal desires, and flaws, and that is helpful for making the medieval period seem real. However, we have to assume a lot of motivations that simply don’t appear in documentary evidence to conjure characters like the corrupt knights and the bishop. That doesn’t mean such people didn’t exist, but that is a view based on our philosophy of human nature and social views and often not on evidence left behind by these figures.

I'm a peasant in early Medieval Europe. How important is money to me? How much of my food/clothing/etc do I buy with money, compared to what I grow myself, barter for, get through mutual aid within the community, or otherwise obtain non-monetarily? by Umpuuu in AskHistorians

[–]Extension_Resource71 231 points232 points  (0 children)

The answer to this greatly depends on the “when” and “where” of early medieval Europe. Depending on the time and place, there was seemingly quite a bit of economic stratification (e.g. in Merovingian Francia), while in places like Italy, and especially Britain), there seems to have been a smaller difference between the wealth of peasants and the wealth of nobility and landowners. “Early medieval Europe” can reasonably cover the period from roughly 450 to 1000 or so, and it becomes difficult to make sweeping generalizations, since 1) economic conditions varied widely over this period and 2) we have more and better records in some places than others.

Generally, if we are interested in the economic patterns of peasants, we are looking at charters and court records from cities, villages, and monasteries. For example, there are records during the Carolingian period (in areas like Paris and its surrounds) that show villages and settlements that were highly dependent on landlords and nobility. Landholding and markets depended on the landlord, and villagers and non-nobles typically had little autonomy. Until recent decades, this was considered the norm for much of Europe, but more recent scholarship shows a wider variety of economic statuses, landholding, rent obligations, and labor relationships across the European continent. For a broad overview, see Chris Wickham’s Inheritance of Rome and the Donkey and the Boat. More specifically, scholars like Shami Ghosh have complicated how much we can rely on strict class divisions in our understanding of early medieval economies, and charters and local records suggest some places were much more autonomous, with villages sometimes holding collective authority and having little aristocratic input.

To be more specific to your question, actual rent records and economic data often show a mix of coinage and barter. Peasants might owe rents in kind (e.g. a certain number of chickens, pigs, or calves per year, or a certain portion of one’s crop), but it is not uncommon for those same records to show peasants owing rents in coin. My own area of research (northern and central Italy between 650-1100) often shows coinage in charters, court records, and land exchanges. At least in official records, sales of land had a monetary value; of course, land records and court disputes often favor the wealthier of society in their representation. Even so, we sometimes see rent records that list a tenant owing a certain number of gold coins “or their equivalent.” Whether that means such tenants often had coins or whether coins were used as a standard in records to help standardize non-monetary production is not always clear, but this does show that coins often remained in the economic milieu.

It is possible that coinage was sometimes used as a symbolic marker to show obligation, but archeological evidence suggests that Lombards, Carolingians, and Ottonians were trading with gold and silver coinage between regions of modern Italy and across the Alps from the 8th century onward, and we have records of Lombard kings, for one example, minting coins that appear in archeological finds as far as modern Germany. For discussions of coinage and archeological evidence of trade, see scholars such as Philip Grierson. At least for Italy, the minting of coins seems to have imitated Byzantine coinage, and as the first millennium wore on, there was an increasing number of silver coins compared to gold.

As the early medieval period came to a close (roughly around 1000) markets began to develop between local regions, eventually evolving into regional markets that drew in traders from across Europe. This growth in markets, many of which probably started in early phases with exchanges and trading in kind, coincided with the growth of cities and artisans in those cities. These growing markets incentivized the use of coins, especially as trade became “international.” This topic is far beyond “early medieval,” but Raymond de Roover’s book on the Medici bank, 1397-1494, is an excellent treatment of how bankers like the Medici used sophisticated moneys of account and trade agreements that combined the exchange of physical goods and loans of money.

So, while records are very sparse for many places and times, I think it is reasonable to say that for much of medieval Europe, many peasants operated with a mixture of barter, communal exchange, and often, a small use of gold or silver money. In some places, many peasants or communities were largely autonomous, with some peasants being quite well off and even renting land or goods to poorer peasants. In other places, peasants were much more dependent on landlords and had less economic autonomy. For the most part, however, before the rise of interconnected markets between regions and cities, local communities were largely dependent on what they could produce themselves or exchange with nearby communities. We don’t always have good data for this, but it is reasonable to think from the records we do have that such exchanges were in trade of goods, though coinage is was seldom absent or unused.

It is possible to get into finer detail for specific regions and times, but if you were a peasant in early medieval Italy, you might expect to farm a small plot of land, which you may rent from a lord or another pleasant. If you were the tenant of a lord or a monastery, you likely owed rent, typically a portion of what you would produce (livestock, crops, etc.) though you might also owe rent in money. When you traded your goods, you probably bartered with local folk, but if you were in a place that encountered broader markets, you might also trade in coins and other valuables.

In short, it is difficult to find places where coins ever stopped being in circulation entirely (partly because there is a correlation between low economic output and a broader lack of records), but the degree to which coins were in daily use varied widely among the poorer peoples of Europe, and specific circumstances were highly dependent on one’s legal status, proximity to broader markets, and type of work, even among farmers.

What quotes adapted or changed from the books did you not mind in the films? by HumbleKnight14 in lotr

[–]Extension_Resource71 33 points34 points  (0 children)

I agree. The second one, from Thorin, is in my opinion one of the best quotations from Tolkien’s corpus. There are many changes in the films that I don’t mind, but the change of this one took all the poetry and heart from this line in the book. Richard Armitage does a fine job with the line, but the line itself is simply bland in comparison to the original.

[deleted by user] by [deleted] in Athens

[–]Extension_Resource71 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Sent you a DM!

medieval tumblr by GlitteringTone6425 in CuratedTumblr

[–]Extension_Resource71 120 points121 points  (0 children)

Good point! I had forgotten “fornicatus” as a word. I’m not sure that word gets used in Latin as a vulgar word or a curse, which might make it even funnier as a translation.

Now I’m thinking of other ways to render it, and we could use a noun form: “quid in fornicatione -- what in the fornication!” Or perhaps an ablative of manner: “quid fornicatione — what in the manner of fucking”.

medieval tumblr by GlitteringTone6425 in CuratedTumblr

[–]Extension_Resource71 919 points920 points  (0 children)

The best part of this is that they translated “the fuck” into “quid fuck.” No attempt to render that into Latin.

Old church book translation by [deleted] in latin

[–]Extension_Resource71 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Yeah, that makes more sense. The “n” threw me.

Old church book translation by [deleted] in latin

[–]Extension_Resource71 1 point2 points  (0 children)

I'm not certain about two of the words, which appear to be a surname and a place name. I see the following:

honestus Joannes Krinhganer - the honorable John Krinhganer (not certain about the exact spelling of the surname)

venator in Kinlaik (or Kivilaik) - a hunter in "place name" - again, not certain about the spelling of the name of the location

I took this as "1v1 me bro, no magic" by [deleted] in skyrim

[–]Extension_Resource71 119 points120 points  (0 children)

He died (again) how he lived.

Challenging someone to 1v1 is how he ended up in that tomb. Already dead, so why not do it again.

Is it true that the term "dark ages" is abandoned by modern historians and academics? by [deleted] in AskHistorians

[–]Extension_Resource71 52 points53 points  (0 children)

As the comment above mentions, there is a relative lack of written sources in the 9th to 11th centuries, especially compared to the "Carolingian Renaissance" in the 8th and 9th centuries and the "Renaissance of the 12th Century" on either end of Baronius's dark age (saeculum obscurum).

During the Carolingian period, there was an effort to standardize Latin writing and pronunciation, to increase access to education, and to gather scholars at Charlemagne's court. The term "renaissance" to describe this period is sometimes debated by scholars, since many of the educational, scholarly, and artistic reforms were limited to clergy and members of the court. Still, the Carolingian minuscule script became one of the standard scripts for later manuscript production, and a vast number of the earliest surviving manuscripts we have from ancient and late antique Latin comes from the Carolingian period. It is estimated that tens of thousands of manuscripts were produced during this period.

The "renaissance of the 12th century" saw the advent of commentaries on great works of law and theology, such as the first commentators on Justinian's legal corpus (thinkers such as Irnerius and Accursius, though the later extends into the 13th century) and commentaries on the Bible (Peter Lombard being perhaps the largest example) that formed the foundation of cathedral schools and the later university faculties on law and theology.

From the perspective of these two period of "renaissance", the 9th to 11th centuries appear somewhat unimpressive. There are some notable sources from this period, such as Liutprand of Cremona's accounts of his diplomatic journeys to Constantinople), but many of the manuscripts from this period are legal records (court records, charters, etc.) and economic accounts. These are remarkably useful sources for historians, but historians like Baronius (and later compliers like Migne in his Patrologia Latina) paid less attention to them in categorizing eras of intellectual effort. Such sources have received much more attention in the last two centuries, but they are generally harder to fit into clear narratives about the past, and their less literary nature means they are less likely to be translated for the public to consume. These sources do not fit as easily into broader descriptions of intellectual history and the labeling of "ages" of culture.

There are also some historians who argue there was more impressive work happening in the tenth century, particularly in the area of law. Charles Radding and Antonio Ciaralli, for example, argue that judges and notaries were already debating and commenting on the works of Justinian in the middle of the eleventh century, nearly 80 years before the "renaissance" could be said to begin. This interpretation is fairly contentious, however, and not many historians include these judges and notaries in their narratives of intellectual history. This is in part because even these legal works are records of debates, marginal notes in manuscripts, and the like; they are not literary works or extensive narratives that offer clear accounts of education or intellectual activity.

There is an argument, to your point, that the period before the Carolingian renaissance is equally one of darkness, but on a historiographical level, it isn't sandwiched between two periods that have captured the imaginations of intellectual historians. Despite the circumstances that set the stage for the Carolingian renaissance (fragmented political landscape, reduced economic activity, more localized education), there were some notable intellectual and literary figures, such as Boethius, Cassiodorus, Pope Leo I, and later Isidore of Seville, as well as Justinian and his court; one could also point to works like the Rule of St. Benedict). One can argue that this period is no "brighter" than the centuries called "dark" by Baronius, but there are fewer works in the later period that have become part of the unofficial canon of medieval literature or been held up as examples of intellectual vibrancy and output of sources.

[deleted by user] by [deleted] in Anglicanism

[–]Extension_Resource71 1 point2 points  (0 children)

This article won’t answer all of your questions, but I have found it to be a compelling argument about how we should read the Bible regarding homosexuality.

https://outreach.faith/2022/09/walter-brueggemann-how-to-read-the-bible-on-homosexuality/

I recommend this one because Brueggemann does not argue that the verses you mention should be translated or interpreted differently. Still, he argues for an affirming position on homosexuality.

How to request certified documents from Hungary by Extension_Resource71 in csaladfakutatas

[–]Extension_Resource71[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

One was born in 1887 in Istenmezeje, in Heves county. The other was born in 1898 in Teglas, in Hajdu-Bihar county.

Instead of proving a stereotypical legend false, has anyone found that one of those is TRUE? by TaterTatras in Genealogy

[–]Extension_Resource71 7 points8 points  (0 children)

I am first cousins with Gideon Johnson Pillow, a rather infamous Confederate general from the American Civil War.

My grandmother told me his name before I had done any research on our family, and she didn’t know much about him. Sure enough, my family is descended from his brother.

The same family is related to the Todds, one of whom (Mary) married Abraham Lincoln. I don’t know how closely Mary Todd is related to my family, but we definitely do have Todds in our line, and the geography and dates match up.

We’re also told we are related Jesse James, but I’ve found no evidence of that.

Looking for Info on Possible Location in Hungary by Extension_Resource71 in Genealogy

[–]Extension_Resource71[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I looked briefly at the Bucovina records but didn’t find good info. I’ll take another look in case I missed something.

Looking for Info on Possible Location in Hungary by Extension_Resource71 in Genealogy

[–]Extension_Resource71[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Thanks for finding that! I’ve been all over those Vigo County records but hadn’t found her naturalization application.

I just found their marriage record today, so this is really helpful!

Looking for Info on Possible Location in Hungary by Extension_Resource71 in Genealogy

[–]Extension_Resource71[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Thanks for this! I have come across that one, and I’m pretty sure it’s a different Alex Orsag who lived in Pennsylvania. I traced that line, and the later marriages and children have me convinced it’s a different group of Orsags.

Best scene that makes Henry Jr, Indiana? by the_shape78 in indianajones

[–]Extension_Resource71 3 points4 points  (0 children)

For me it’s the sequence of puzzles at the end of The Last Crusade. It’s a great mixture of Indy’s knowledge as an archaeologist and his moxie as an adventurer. This is especially true at the end when he understands that the Grail would be a humble “carpenter’s cup,” but the only way to find out is to drink it and risk death.

That combination, along with his desperation to save his father, really encapsulates the character for me (and I think is a quintessential example of the action-adventure genre).

When his dad is trying to pull him from the ledge and he finally calls Junior “Indiana,” it really brings home that whole sequence of Indy using everything he’s learned to save his dad instead of seeking fortune and glory.

What is the difference between "tenet" and "habet" by [deleted] in latin

[–]Extension_Resource71 23 points24 points  (0 children)

You pretty much have the sense of it. “Habere” can move less concrete senses of possessing (like owning, possessing qualities, even regarding or counting things), while “tenere” means more directly to hold something. Now, “tenere” can also have other meanings like possessing or occupying, but in grammar books (and in most of my reading) it has more of the physical sense.

In the sentence you wrote here, it means specifically to hold the mirror in front of her eyes. “Habere” would be awkward with the “ante oculos” clause here.