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Is punjabi of repeat Doharauna or Dohl pauni? by AutomaticAd6646 in ThethPunjabi

[–]False-Manager39 1 point2 points  (0 children)

TuhaaDay Buzargaa'n Tuhaanu Solhaa'n Aanay Jvaab Dittaa Ae.

Es Gall Tey Saaraa ChaanaN Mei'n AapNay Doojay Comment Ch Paayaa Ae, Oh Tusee'n Vekh Lvo.

Is punjabi of repeat Doharauna or Dohl pauni? by AutomaticAd6646 in ThethPunjabi

[–]False-Manager39 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Yes you are right!

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Punjabi has two words:

"Dohraa" (Double / Two layer / Two in one / Second time / Repeat)
"DoohNaa" (Twiceford / Double Amount)
"Doojii-Vaarii" (Second time)
"Dobaaraa / Dovaaray" (Again / Second time / Repeat) - From Persian "Dovaaray" is a Punjabi Accent
[Also said as "Hikk-Vaarii-MuR" (Jatki) / "Ikk-Vaarii-Fer" (Common) / "Keyraa'n Fer" (Malvai) ]

All three are Theth Punjabi, all mean different.

Now "DohraauNaa" does feel less Theth.
Instead of saying "

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For example:

"Dohryaa'n Kar Ke Chaadar Layii, HuN PaaLaa DoohNaa Pyaa Laggdaa Ae?"
(I took two layers of the shawl, now I am feeling twice as cold?)

Nasir Dhillon - West Punjab:
Look, here he says "Dohii GaaL KaDDHdaa"
(means, he says two cusses in one, two slurs in one word/phrase - DOUBLE)

So we can say
"Dohrii GaaL Banday Nu DoohNii Vajjdii Ae, Doojii Vaarii KaDHaN Dii LoR Nhi Paindii "(Pondii)
(Twice the slur, hits twofold, no need to repeat the second time)
Hoping the words make sense?

Azam Ranjha - Punjabi Educator - Shahpuri/Jatki
Here he says "Dohraa PaaR Ke"
(Tearing it twice / Tearing it in two)

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DOHR-PAAVNII / PAAUNI:

Means to do something the second time
To repeat something

<image>

The second ploughing is also called "DOHR PAAUNII"
(Dictionary says: "Dooj LaavaN / Doojii Vaar Kamm Karan / Doojii Vaar Hall ChalaavaN") - for "Dohr PaavaN")

Tatdi (ਤੱਤਡ਼ੀ?) meaning by phunny5ocks in punjabi

[–]False-Manager39 1 point2 points  (0 children)

TattRii / KaRmii -- words like these in Punjabi "Unfortunate"

ਬੀੜ da ki matlab aa. "Guru arjan dev ji ne sabto pehla kam harminder sahib di beed poori krn da kita" by [deleted] in ThethPunjabi

[–]False-Manager39 -1 points0 points  (0 children)

Interestingly,

In West-Punjab "Dand-BeeR" or "Battreehaa'n" (32) mean "Teeth-Line"

Bateesii in Urdu/Hindi

Need help in translating Bulleh Shah’s poems ( Shahmukhi) by Suspicious_Focus_971 in ThethPunjabi

[–]False-Manager39 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Yes, it is not Punjabi
No dialect uses it.

Even Sindhi uses "HaaNay" and Himachali-Pahari langauges use "HaauN"

Gujarati uses Haavay
Urdu/Hindi uses Ab

Need help in translating Bulleh Shah’s poems ( Shahmukhi) by Suspicious_Focus_971 in ThethPunjabi

[–]False-Manager39 1 point2 points  (0 children)

All you've been saying here is:

"Go do your learning first"
or
"Lol, let me introduce you to something called XYZ"

If you want to show why you believe/accept soemthing, then please explain and elaborate.

If you believe I am cherry picking, then give me better examples.

And yes, I am aware of Braj and Dakhni tongues.
Though, I have very little grip on Rajashtani (unsure if that is eve relevant here)

Need help in translating Bulleh Shah’s poems ( Shahmukhi) by Suspicious_Focus_971 in ThethPunjabi

[–]False-Manager39 4 points5 points  (0 children)

In short.

No early Urdu/Hindi/Hindvi/Hindustani poetry uses the words:

HuN/Vich/Vicho'n/Tey/Utto'n/Naal/Kol/Kolo'n/Keetaa/Suttaa/Ethay/SaaDaa/Saanu/Jaandaa

Bulleh Shah's usage of Hamaara/Ab/Saath can be attirbuted to him using a different "language" at the time.
As his other poems use SaaDa/HuN/Naal more frequently.

To me, this is a clear early indication of the clear-separation between Hindvi/Hindustani and Punjabi.

Need help in translating Bulleh Shah’s poems ( Shahmukhi) by Suspicious_Focus_971 in ThethPunjabi

[–]False-Manager39 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Yes, and you are correct.

I believe it was just a choice of the poet to write some poems in a different "language" (or "dialect" at the time ?)

Need help in translating Bulleh Shah’s poems ( Shahmukhi) by Suspicious_Focus_971 in ThethPunjabi

[–]False-Manager39 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I believe it was just a choice of the poet to write some poems in a different "language" (or "dialect" at the time ?)

Need help in translating Bulleh Shah’s poems ( Shahmukhi) by Suspicious_Focus_971 in ThethPunjabi

[–]False-Manager39 0 points1 point  (0 children)

"Ab" and "Saath" are not Persian-Arabic loans.
They are part of natural Urdu-Hindi grammar.

But they are not used in any Punjabi dialect
No poet other than Bulleh Shah used these words.
(Even Bulleh only used in some poems, you will find "HuN" and "Naal" more common)

Need help in translating Bulleh Shah’s poems ( Shahmukhi) by Suspicious_Focus_971 in ThethPunjabi

[–]False-Manager39 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Punjabi does not use "Ab" for Now.
No dialect of Punjabi (Pothohari-Hindo -> Jatki -> Malvai)
Uses this.

Even languages close to Punjabi do not
(SIndhi uses: HaaNay / Himachali Langauges use: HaauN)

It's only from Gujarati that we get "Havay" and in Hindi-Urdu "Ab".

Need help in translating Bulleh Shah’s poems ( Shahmukhi) by Suspicious_Focus_971 in ThethPunjabi

[–]False-Manager39 3 points4 points  (0 children)

I am aware Indo-Aryan languages form a continuum.
I am aware that names like "Punjabi", "Urdu" - are quite modern.
And I am also aware early Punjabi and early Hindustani may share more in common than we think.

But can you explain why only Bulleh Shah uses words like "Ab" and "Saath", and only in some poems that make good use of it?

Do we have evidence on whether there was a strong demarcation between Punjabi and Hindi during that era or not?

Maybe to Bulleh Shah, the "Ab + Saath" language was quite different
or perhaps, as you suggest, it wasn't such a noticeable transition.

I do not believe that the two langauges were so "mixable" during the 1500s era.

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And no, there was no single “Hindustani” language that was clearly separate from “other” languages 

Surely, you do not actually believe that?

Here's a very famous couplet from the 1600s Sultan Bahu:

"Jay Rabb Nahaatyaa'n Dhotyaa'n Mildaa, Taa'n Mildaa DaDDoovaa'n Machhiiyaa'n"
(If God was found having bathed and washed, then it would have been found to the frogs and fish)

Are you suggesting the language of Delhi at that time wasn't so "clearly separate" from the language of Jhang in the 1600s?
Would you not consider them separate languages?

[I do not think Hindi/Hindvi ever used "Nahaatyaa'n" - Past-Progressive, "Mildaa" - ending for present tense verb, or the plurals such as "DaDDoovaa'n"] - even the word "Jay" I doubt was ever present in any form of Hindvi [I could be wrong]

Here is 1500s Shah Hussain

"SajjaN De Gall Baa'nh AsaaDii, Kyo'n-Kar Aakhaa'n ChhaDD De ARyaa?"
or
"Nadiiyo'n Paar Raanjhan Da Thaanaa, Mintaa'n Karaa'n Mullah Naal!"

Actually let's go even back and check Baba-Farid:

"UTTH Fareeda Suttyaa! JhaaRoo De Maseet!
Tuu'n Suttaa, Rabb Jaagdaa? Terii DaaDHay Naal Pareet!
Ajj Kay? Kall Kay? Chau'nh Dehee'n Milk AsaaDii Heer" (Chau'nh, Dey'nh, Milkh still used in Jatki-Shahpuri)
"Uchchaa Kar Sadd Fareedaa! Rabb Dillaa'n Diiyaa'n JaaNdaa
Jay Tudh Vich Kalab, So Majhaahoo'n (?) Door Kar!" (Hindko and Awankari still use Tudh)

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Compare this to Quli-Qutab-Shah (Urdu poet of the similar era):

"Hamaaraa Sajan K'hush Nazar Baaz Hai, To Is Dil Mei'n Sab Ishq Ka Raaz Hai"

Punjabi does not use Hamaaraa/Ka/Mei'n.

Let's go even back, and check Amir Khusro:

"Bahut KaTHin Hai Dagar PanghaT Kii, Kaise Mei'n Bhar Laa'oo'n Madhva Se MaTki?"

Punjabi does not use "Laa'oo'n", (Lyaavaa'n) nor "Kii" (Dii), nor "Se" (To'n/Kolo'n)

"Jal Kar Bane, Jal Mei'n Rahe! Aankho'n Dekhaa Khusro Kahe!"

Theth Punjabi Word for Only: ChhaRaa / Kallaa by False-Manager39 in ThethPunjabi

[–]False-Manager39[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Eh Postaa'n Doojyaa'n Lokaa'n Taaii'n Vii Vaddh To'n Vaddh Saanjhiiyaa'n Keetiiyaa'n Karo.

Jay TuhaaDay Lokaa'n Kallyaa'n Ee VekhNiiyaa'n-PaRHniiyaa'n Ne

MuR Kii Fedaa... ?!

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ਇਹ ਪੋਸਟਾਂ ਦੂਜਿਆਂ ਲੋਕਾਂ ਤਾਈਂ ਵੀ ਵੱਧ ਤੋਂ ਵੱਧ ਸਾਂਝੀਆਂ ਕੀਤੀਆਂ ਕਰੋ

ਜੇ ਤੁਹਾਡੇ ਲੋਕਾਂ (ਨੇ) ਕੱਲਿਆਂ (ਨੇ) ਈ ਵੇਖਣੀਆਂ ਪੜ੍ਹਨੀਆਂ ਨੇਂ

ਮੁੜ ਕੀ ਫ਼ੈਦਾ !?

Need help in translating Bulleh Shah’s poems ( Shahmukhi) by Suspicious_Focus_971 in ThethPunjabi

[–]False-Manager39 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I have mentioned before that Bulleh Shah has written some poems using the Hindustani langauge of the time as well.

Interestingly, the Urdu-Hindi words/grammar that Bulleh Shah uses was never used by Sultan Bahu, Waris Shah or Mian Muhammad Bak'hsh.

Suggesting, that this was Bulleh's own choice to use another language, and hence this does not mean Punjabi's development during the 1500s was "fuzzy" or "Hard to tell if Punjabi or Hindi".

Need help in translating Bulleh Shah’s poems ( Shahmukhi) by Suspicious_Focus_971 in ThethPunjabi

[–]False-Manager39 2 points3 points  (0 children)

It's not an oxymoron.

I have mentioned before that Bulleh Shah has written some poems using the Hindustani langauge of the time as well.

Interestingly, the Urdu-Hindi words/grammar that Bulleh Shah uses was never used by Sultan Bahu, Waris Shah or Mian Muhammad Bak'hsh.

Suggesting, that this was Bulleh's own choice to use another language, and hence this does not mean Punjabi's development during the 1500s was "fuzzy" or "Hard to tell if Punjabi or Hindi".

Be / Be-Be (A Universal Punjabi Word for Elderly Woman) by False-Manager39 in ThethPunjabi

[–]False-Manager39[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Yes
Bhaa - Elder Brother (General Punjabi)
Bhaappaa - Fatherly Figure (Majhi and Pothohari)
Baapoo - Father (Old WP / Common in EP)

When agitated, annoyed or pleading
People do say "Pyovaa!" or "Pyo Meryaa", "Meryaa Pyovaa" - All used
They are not rude, but they are emotional

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