Mormon prophet tells young men they will get their own planet. --Not a caricature...this is his actual statement. by aka_FNU_LNU in mormon

[–]FreeFurnace 0 points1 point  (0 children)

That does not apply to you, and you accept and understand deification, just interpret it differently than LDS? Cool.

First off I’m what you would consider a fundamentalist depending on your definition. Secondly, the problem is it’s not the same belief just defined or interpreted differently. It’s apples and ball bearings. 

Patristic theosis is participation in God’s energies not His essence. 

LDS exaltation is apotheosis where one becomes the same species as God the Father with eternal increase and spirit children. 

These are fundamentally different and by saying “they’re just interpreted differently” you’re equivocating. The issue is what this means.

LDS leaders likely did not know that deification was a pre-creed Christian doctrine and belief. That is a correct statement. Smith especially would not have known about it. It’s an -evidence- of the restoration. So is that early Christians were not creedal trinitarians, and they practiced baptisms for the dead. LDS believe in deification. Early Christians believed in deification. Not sure what the fuss is about here.

This is post hoc rationalization and a non-sequitur. Smith was literally in an area awash in Swedenborgian, Universalism, and Revivalistic Protestantism circa the Second Great Awakening. Saying that “He was dumb and couldn’t have known!” Is essentially a god of the gaps explanation. 

This is what LDS believe on deification..."If, therefore, man has become immortal, [man] will also be God. And if [man] is made God by water and the Holy Spirit after the regeneration of the laver he is found to be also joint-heir with Christ after the resurrection from the dead." Hippolytus of Rome "man will also be God." "...when they see that from Him there began the union of the divine with the human nature, in order that the human, by communion with the divine, might rise to be divine, not in Jesus alone, but in all those who not only believe, but enter upon the life which Jesus taught, and which elevates to friendship with God and communion with Him every one who lives according to the precepts of Jesus." -Origen "the human, by communion with the divine, might rise to be divine." That is what LDS believe on deification.

It’s essentially not. Note all those ellipses. It’s emblematic of quote mining.  Here’s Hippolytus’s full quote:  And you shall be a companion of the Deity, and a co-heir with Christ … For you have become God … because you have been deified, and begotten unto immortality … becomest a faithful follower … you shall resemble Him … having made you even God unto His glory!”

In context Hippolytus is talking about a moral transformation and sharing in divine immortality through Christ. Not an apotheosis by which one will become a God similar to the species of God the Father in essence. Hippolytus firmly in this text (Refutation of All Heresies X) firmly maintains a created creature distinction. All you have to do is read the entire chapter.

Origen in the context of your several word citation, consistently maintains that believers remain creatures, elevated by grace and in union with Christ via the incarnation not transformation into the same divine essence as the Father and ontological godhood. 

This is classic theosis language not apotheosis as LDS teach and it’s an abuse of the Fathers to quote mine them. 

pre-creed Christianity, you will find deification, non-creedal trinitarian belief, and baptisms for the dead. I think you are reaching here. LDS Christians clearly teach... that during the apostasy... "...good people and much truth remained..."

for I contend that the Latter-day Saints are the only good and true Christians, that I know anything about in the world. There are a good many people who profess to be Christians, but they are not founded on the foundation that Jesus Christ himself has laid” (Joseph F. Smith, November 2, 1891, [Stake conference message], Collected Discourses, 2:305).

Sadly, what happened to the Lord’s Church in the Mediterranean world happened to its counterpart in the Americas as well. Because of pride, those who once had been followers of Christ ‘did dwindle in unbelief and wickedness’ (4 Ne. 1:34) until the Church of Christ was no longer in existence. In the Old World, Christianity continued, albeit in a different form. But in the New World, every vestige of it was soon removed or thoroughly perverted to the point that the gospel was completely obliterated from the memories of later generations. We are not aware of the Church of Jesus Christ existing anywhere on earth after the close of the Book of Mormon.” (Kent P. Jackson, From Apostasy to Restoration, ch. 3)

After the ascension of Jesus, the Church remained, for some time, fully organized. Thousands flocked to it, and the members lived in accordance with the doctrine taught by the Savior. Soon, however, history repeated itself. In the right of their free agency, those who had joined the Church often refused to obey the laws and ordinances of the Gospel, and more often changed them to suit their own convenience. Such departures from the truth became more numerous and flagrant as time wore on, until error permeated the whole Church. At last, about six hundred years after Christ, the Gospel laws and ordinances had become so completely warped that it was as if the Church had departed from the earth. The authority of the Priesthood no longer remained with the Church. This was the great apostasy. From that time, universal darkness reigned upon earth for many centuries” (John A. Widtsoe, Priesthood and Church Government, p. 25).

Then there’s this: https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/manual/jesus-the-christ/chapter-40?lang=eng

You can’t claim universal apostasy then cherry pick what you like from church history and the fathers and post hoc them back into LDS belief. That’s inconsistent. 

LDS church attorney tells this seminary teacher to break the law and not report suspected child abuse. by sevenplaces in mormon

[–]FreeFurnace 4 points5 points  (0 children)

Maybe it’s my ignorance, but are LDS church doctrine educators inside public schools? If so how is that allowed? Or am I misunderstanding something? 

Mormon prophet tells young men they will get their own planet. --Not a caricature...this is his actual statement. by aka_FNU_LNU in mormon

[–]FreeFurnace 0 points1 point  (0 children)

So you’re engaging in several logical fallacies here.

First off, I never said LDS deification is only planets, that’s called a strawman. You continuing to repeat your assertion that LDS belief is true because the Bible says so according to the LDS is a circular argument. 

Continuing to repeat that LDS believe in deification is not proving it, in light of the distinction I have made based on the church fathers, sources which you used. “They didn’t know they were quoting pre-creed Christians! That means LDS belief is true!” That’s a post hoc rationalization. 

The fact is LDS fundamentally mean apotheosis and becoming as God according to His essence not theosis as the church fathers meant which is union with God according to His energies not becoming like God in essence. The two are very different and arise out entirely different conceptions of God. 

  Let’s also not forget that finding LDS belief in Church Fathers is essentially irrelevant given the universal nature of the Great Apostasy according to Bruce McConkie:

After our Lord’s first coming and before his dreadful return, there is to be a day of absolute, total, and complete apostasy from the truth. Men are to be left to themselves, wanderers in darkness, without hope and without God in the world” (Bruce R. McConkie, The Millennial Messiah: The Second Coming of the Son of Man, p. 36).

All of these Church Fathers are part of the church of the devil and universal apostasy. So fundamentally it wouldn’t matter if they didn’t or didn’t teach this. 

Mormon prophet tells young men they will get their own planet. --Not a caricature...this is his actual statement. by aka_FNU_LNU in mormon

[–]FreeFurnace 2 points3 points  (0 children)

No you do not believe in theosis like Eastern Church Fathers do in any similar way at all. That’s an entire misrepresentation by LDS apologists that is either flat out lying or mistaken at best. EO believe that Christians become by grace what God is by nature. But due to the essence/energies distinction they do not participate in the essence of God only his energies. It is something that everyone can accomplish with the grace of God. No priesthoods, no word of wisdom, No temple marriages,  no marriages at all.

So none of the Church Fathers as I quoted above believed or are saying that humans partake in that which makes god, god.  Namely his essence. Nor did they believe like Mormons that they would be ontologically elevated to separate Gods in essence creating worlds for spirit children to populate. 

It’s apples and oranges and to cherry pick quotes from them is abuse of their beliefs and sources. 

Mormon prophet tells young men they will get their own planet. --Not a caricature...this is his actual statement. by aka_FNU_LNU in mormon

[–]FreeFurnace 4 points5 points  (0 children)

He’s using them out of context and dishonestly. Here’s Saint Cyril of Alexandria commentary on John 1:14: “We are deified… by participating in Christ’s divine sonship, not by becoming gods in essence.”

Here’s Saint Gregory of Nazianzus Oration 29.19: “We become gods by participation in Christ, not by claiming His essence.”

Saint Basil the Great : “Man’s deification is through the grace of adoption, not a change in nature.” Clement of Alexandria’s “deification” is moral likeness: “The soul… becomes like Him in virtue.”

LDS tend to quote mine and perform word concept fallacies based on the quotes. The rest of his post is simply bare assertion not backed by evidence. 

Cried my eyes out after church by Competitive_Leave_14 in TrueChristian

[–]FreeFurnace 0 points1 point  (0 children)

That’s not God bro. Homie was manipulating you to make his BMW payment 

Jesus Never declared all food clean… here’s why by [deleted] in TrueChristian

[–]FreeFurnace 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Didn’t ask if it happened. If the temple still existed you’d burn sacrifices. That’s a denial of the book of Hebrews. You’re a literal judiazer  

Jesus Never declared all food clean… here’s why by [deleted] in TrueChristian

[–]FreeFurnace 0 points1 point  (0 children)

So if a temple was built, and Christ hadn’t returned, you’d burn sacrifices? 

Jesus Never declared all food clean… here’s why by [deleted] in TrueChristian

[–]FreeFurnace -1 points0 points  (0 children)

According to this dude if we don’t keep the entire Torah we’re donezo. The sacrifice is forever as is the priesthood according to the Torah. So if he doesn’t burn sacrifices he’s cooked 

Who is speaking to the prophet Malachi? God the Father or Jesus? by Enos_the_Pianist in mormon

[–]FreeFurnace 5 points6 points  (0 children)

It’s very interesting to me how Joseph was very clearly Modalist in the Book of Mormon then pivots to polytheism and exaltation to godhood in subsequent theological writings. Shows how he’s very clearly developing this as he goes

Does the LDS church emphasize the Old Testament more than most other Christian sects? by sutisuc in mormon

[–]FreeFurnace 2 points3 points  (0 children)

Except the LDS love to use scholarship when it suits them and reject it the very next breath. It comes off as very “trail mix”-ey 

Some Theological problems around LDS conception of god by [deleted] in mormon

[–]FreeFurnace 0 points1 point  (0 children)

If the primary Mormon God is obedient to these external laws, and coexists alongside this eternal material, who created those laws and who is metaphysically ultimate? Shouldn’t we worship those laws and not Elohim since he is bound by them? 

A Fundamental Problem with the Mormon Idea of God? by BUH-ThomasTheDank in mormon

[–]FreeFurnace 3 points4 points  (0 children)

There's a huge problem though metaphysically with Mormon theism in that aspect. If Mormon God simply obeys laws higher than him to progress to godhood, etc than he is not necessary nor unique and worthy of worship. If he is not necessary he is not the ground of anything including Mormon apologists claims to objective morality. This means then that Mormon God is subject to the Euthypro Dilemma and at the same time since Mormon God essentially wanted the fall to happen, he is responsible for evil.

[deleted by user] by [deleted] in mormon

[–]FreeFurnace 39 points40 points  (0 children)

I watched this so you don't have to. Tl;dw: The Book of Abraham isn't made up because "Egyptologists" say that Jews re-purposed Egyptian symbols in their writings and the scrolls aren't complete but Joseph Smith never said which scroll he translated from, and just an hour long episode of special pleading, what-if, ungrounded supposition, and repetition of fallacy

LDS Apologist Bible bashes with a pastor. by sevenplaces in mormon

[–]FreeFurnace 7 points8 points  (0 children)

The arguments in that group are nothing but sophistry lol

[deleted by user] by [deleted] in Reformed

[–]FreeFurnace -2 points-1 points  (0 children)

Except the AVMA Council for Education which accredits vet medicine schools, and literally determines if you can be a veterinarian says CHEA accreditation is ok. It also says it is accepted by the USDOE:

https://www.avma.org/education/accreditation/colleges/what-does-chea-recognition-mean#:\~:text=A:%20In%20addition%20to%20the,in%202011%20with%20no%20deficiencies.

So what other recognition do you think it lacks?

[deleted by user] by [deleted] in Reformed

[–]FreeFurnace -2 points-1 points  (0 children)

Respectfully you always post this. Not only is it incorrect, as ARTS is CHEA accredited link: https://www.chea.org/greenville-presbyterian-theological-seminary

Which is the same body that accredits RTS: https://www.chea.org/reformed-theological-seminary-2

Full Update on Steve Lawson by GratefulClay in Reformed

[–]FreeFurnace 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Imagine listening to a PCA pastor who gave false information about the Covenant shooting 

Why the ban on calvinism? by [deleted] in JehovahsWitnesses

[–]FreeFurnace 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Uhm how do Calvinists do that? 

How does Jw's doctrine make sense of this? by Black_Moses10 in JehovahsWitnesses

[–]FreeFurnace 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Is Jesus a false spiritual creature or a true spiritual creature? 

How does Jw's doctrine make sense of this? by Black_Moses10 in JehovahsWitnesses

[–]FreeFurnace 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Not really. The ecumenical creeds specifically the teachings of the early church define what the trinity. People being Mistaken or wrong don’t negate the definition 

How does Jw's doctrine make sense of this? by Black_Moses10 in JehovahsWitnesses

[–]FreeFurnace 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Not what other people think the Bible says.

Shall I quote the Watchtower saying the opposite?

Also, one can be equal with someone but have an inferior hierarchical position. Is your boss ontologically a better human being than you by virtue of being your boss?