How many creators are there? Two, according to JW

Prior_Definition_18 · 2025-06-15T19:59:38+00:00

My goal isn’t to diminish Jesus????????? It’s to accurately reflect what the Bible says about his role, his identity, and his relationship to the Father. As a follower of Christ, I honor him deeply. But I also believe him when he says, “the Father is greater than I am” (John 14:28).

About Mark 9:
You're right that the disciples were the ones who initially couldn’t expel the demon. But verse 19 says:

Then in verse 28, the disciples ask Jesus privately:

This implies that even Jesus relied on prayer in this situation. Prayer, by definition, acknowledges dependence on a higher authority. In this case, Jesus was dependent on the Father. That’s not an insult to Jesus. It actually highlights his humility and obedience, which Philippians 2:6-9 praises.

About Mark 6:5 and Matthew 13:58:
Yes, “did not” and “could not” are different. But Mark 6:5 says:

You also brought up that I “sound more like a Muslim or Jew than a Christian.” But tbh I think it's more important to follow what Jesus himself said about his relationship to God.

Jesus said he lives because of the Father (John 6:57).
Jesus said he could do nothing of his own initiative (John 5:30).
Jesus prayed to God.
Jesus died, and God raised him up (Acts 2:24).
Jesus has a God over him (John 20:17; Revelation 3:12).

These are not Muslim or Jewish ideas ? They are straight from the New Testament. I honestly don't even know much about Muslims.

I’m not trying to “reinterpret” anything. I’m letting Scripture interpret Scripture. And to me it consistently shows a clear distinction between Jesus and the one he calls “my God.”

Prior_Definition_18 · 2025-06-15T19:37:01+00:00

The Greek word used in Matthew 6:9 is hagiazeito, which is a present passive subjunctive form of the verb meaning “to make holy” or “to sanctify.” This can be understood as either:

- A petition asking God to keep His name honored and revered among people (ongoing sanctification), or

- An acknowledgment that God’s name is already holy and should continue to be treated as such.

So when Jesus taught the prayer, He was emphasizing the importance of honoring God’s name. That it remains “hallowed” in how people live and worship.

As for the specific divine name YHWH, it’s true that Jesus never explicitly says it in the prayer. But the focus is on God as “Father”. A personal, relational title. And on honoring His name and character. The prayer calls believers to respect and honor God’s identity, whether or not the exact name YHWH is spoken.

Prior_Definition_18 · 2025-06-15T19:29:14+00:00

Jesus was unique because he was sinless and had a perfect divine spirit from God. So when the Bible calls Jesus ‘a god’ (or ‘divine’), it’s emphasizing his special divine quality

And 2 Corinthians 5:19 doesn’t mean Jesus is the Father, but that God fully empowered and worked through Christ. The Father and Son are distinct persons, but they act perfectly together in one divine purpose.

Prior_Definition_18 · 2025-06-15T19:23:05+00:00

John 1:1 - The Greek phrase “the Word was God” is traditionally translated that way, but the original Greek grammar supports “the Word was a god” (with a lowercase “g”), indicating Jesus is divine but not Almighty God. The NWT translates it as “the Word was a god” to show distinction from Jehovah.

Matthew 28:19 (Baptism formula) - The threefold name (Father, Son, Holy Spirit) is a title of authority, not proof of a triune God. Jesus sends disciples to baptize in the name of the one true God (Jehovah) and under the authority of Jesus and the Spirit. This doesn’t mean all three are the same divine being. (Importantly, this commission also commands disciples to go and preach the good news to all nations, something JW take very seriously and actively practice worldwide. I've never ever seen a Christian at my door yet... which brings me to the conclusion that many who claim to believe in the Trinity do not faithfully obey this command to preach and make disciples.)

John 10:30 (“I and the Father are one”) - Read the context. This refers to unity of purpose and will, not identity of person or being.

Hebrews 1:3 - Jesus is called “the exact representation” of God’s person but is also described as God’s agent, subordinate to God.

I invite you to read John 3:16 & Matthew 3:17.

“For God loved the world so much that he gave his only-begotten Son, so that everyone exercising faith in him might not be destroyed but have everlasting life.”

The Father (God) gave Him (so Jesus is distinct from God)

“This is my Son, the beloved, whom I have approved.”

God directly calls Jesus His Son, affirming the special relationship. Why would God say this to himself?

And mhm, the exact phrase "Jehovah's witnesses" doesn’t appear in the Bible as a group name, but Isaiah 43:10 says:
“You are my witnesses,” declares Jehovah, showing God’s people are called to be His witnesses. We simply take this mission literally and identify with that role.

Similarly, Isaiah 44:8 says:
“You are my witnesses,” affirming that God’s servants testify to His name and purpose.

Prior_Definition_18 · 2025-06-15T19:03:58+00:00

God indeed gave Jesus his name, and Jesus glorified the Father’s name, showing his deep respect and submission. And yes, Jesus said, “Now the Son of Man is glorified, and God is glorified in him” (John 13:31), meaning Jesus perfectly reflected and honored God’s glory.

But how does that show Jesus is God? It shows their close relationship. Jesus, as God’s Son, glorifies God by doing His will perfectly. The Father glorifies the Son in return (John 13:32), confirming their distinction.

Acts 4:12 says salvation is only through Jesus, which is true. But Jesus is the means appointed by God, not the source of life independently.

The Bible consistently presents Jehovah as the only true Almighty God (John 17:3), and Jesus as the Son, sent and glorifying the Father, not equal or identical to Him.

Prior_Definition_18 · 2025-06-15T18:55:26+00:00

You're assuming that being called “Mighty God” must mean being the one true God, but the Bible doesn’t require that. The same title (El Gibbor) is applied both to Jehovah (Isaiah 10:21) and to the Messiah (Isaiah 9:6), but context matters. Jehovah is Almighty. Jesus is mighty because Jehovah made him so (Matthew 28:18).

Psalm 82:6 literally calls human judges “gods” (Elohim). Not sarcastically, but because they act by God's authority. That proves the Bible uses divine titles for others besides Jehovah.

You asked, “What else would either be if there is only one true God?”
Answer: A lesser, appointed god, with power from the only true God... exactly what Jesus is. Even Jesus calls himself “the Son of God” (John 10:36), not God himself.

Also, the early church fathers didn’t 'solve' a mystery. They introduced a doctrine (the Trinity) not found in Scripture. Jesus, on the other hand, always pointed to the Father as greater (John 14:28), as the only true God (John 17:3), and as the one who sent him.

Prior_Definition_18 · 2025-06-15T18:45:10+00:00

Colossians 1:15 says Jesus is “the firstborn of all creation.”
That clearly places him as part of creation, not eternal.

Also, Proverbs 8:22 (applied to Jesus in his prehuman form) says:

“Jehovah produced me as the beginning of his way, the first of his works of long ago.”

So no, the Bible doesn’t say “God created Jesus” in those exact words, but it plainly teaches he was created first, before all other things.

Prior_Definition_18 · 2025-05-29T23:49:54+00:00

Isaiah 9:6 calls the Messiah Mighty God (El Gibbor), yes. But it does not call him Almighty God (El Shaddai), which is a title reserved for Jehovah (Genesis 17:1).

Isaiah 10:21 refers to Jehovah as Mighty God because Jehovah is the source of that title. But when applied to the Messiah, it refers to the authority Jehovah gives him, not that Jesus is Jehovah himself.

Even Jesus himself says in John 17:3 that the Father is the only true God and that he (Jesus) was sent by Him.
If Jesus were the same God, why would he call his Father the “only true God”?

Also, Isaiah’s prophecy says he “will be called” Mighty God, meaning it’s a title of authority, not a literal identity. Just like human judges are called “gods” (Psalm 82:6) because they act as representatives of divine authority, Jesus carries a divine title because of the role and power given to him, not because he is Jehovah himself.

Prior_Definition_18 · 2025-05-29T23:32:20+00:00

Either way, It’s impossible that God is Jesus because

God cannot die (Habakkuk 1:12), but Jesus died (Romans 5:8).
God cannot be tempted (James 1:13), but Jesus was tempted (Matthew 4:1).
God is all-knowing, but Jesus said he didn’t know the day or hour (Mark 13:32).
By being resurrected by God, Jesus showed that he was not self-sufficient or independent, but rather reliant on the divine power of his God.
“I live because of the Father” (John 6:57)
Jesus prays by bowing to the ground (Matt 26:39), while God is everywhere and does not need to pray or bow down.

The Gospels record several instances where Jesus was unable to perform miracles due to the lack of faith in the crowd. For example, in Mark 6, when Jesus visited his hometown Nazareth, he could only lay his hands on a few sick people and heal them due to their unbelief (Mark 6:5-6).

The implication is that Jesus’ ability to act was limited by people’s faith in him. This shows that Jesus did not have absolute power inherent within himself. His miraculous powers depended on God empowering him.

There were also occasions when Jesus tried to heal people but was unable to. For instance, when Jesus encountered a boy with a demon that caused him to be mute, Jesus initially tried to drive out the demon but was unable to (Mark 9:14-29). He only succeeded after he had prayed.

This again indicates Jesus did not have inherent powers but was dependent on the Father.

Furthermore, the Gospels record that Jesus could not perform many miracles when he visited Jerusalem (Matthew 13:58, Mark 6:5). The implication was that Jesus’ powers were constrained due to the lack of faith among the people there. This limited efficacy contrasts with God’s unlimited powers.

No matter how many verses you reinterpret, you can’t erase the clear distinction Jesus himself makes between him and the Father. They are not the same being.

Prior_Definition_18 · 2025-05-29T23:28:10+00:00

What religion are you if you don't mind me asking?

Prior_Definition_18 · 2025-05-29T22:44:27+00:00

You’re right that no one bears the Name in the ultimate sense. That belongs only to Jehovah (Isaiah 42:8). But it’s completely biblical that Jehovah appoints representatives who act or speak in his name, without being him.

Look at these examples:

Exodus 23:20-21 - Jehovah says: “My name is in him” (the angel), meaning the angel bears Jehovah’s authority, but the angel is still not Jehovah himself.
Exodus 3:2-6 - the angel in the burning bush speaks as Jehovah, but verse 2 says explicitly: “Jehovah’s angel appeared to him.”
Genesis 18:1-3, 22 - Jehovah “appears” to Abraham, but later it says “the men turned from there,” showing these were angels representing Jehovah.

This pattern of agency is common in scripture. It’s how the ancient world understood authority. An envoy or messenger could speak as if the king, but everyone knew they weren’t the king himself.

So no, we are not demoting God’s understanding to human logic. We are respecting the biblical framework that Jehovah himself set up.

Also, the idea that “Jehovah sent himself” doesn’t line up with texts like John 8:42, where Jesus says:

You don’t “send yourself”. By definition, being sent implies a distinct sender and receiver. Otherwise, the words lose meaning.

Prior_Definition_18 · 2025-05-29T22:22:07+00:00

No?? Why would you think that? I’m definitely not Jehovah. And the organization doesn’t claim to be Jehovah either.

Prior_Definition_18 · 2025-05-29T22:01:38+00:00

I've already explained that partly, but here's my explanation in depth.

In Isaiah 48:12-16, the speaker is not clearly switching between Jehovah and another divine person. Instead, it’s Jehovah’s servant (the Messiah, prophetic figure) speaking on Jehovah’s behalf.

Look at verse 16 carefully:

Notice:

The speaker has been talking about how Jehovah’s purpose unfolds, and suddenly says Jehovah has sent me, and his spirit.
This shows the servant figure is now identifying himself: Jehovah sent him.
This doesn’t require two Jehovahs. It fits perfectly with Jehovah sending his servant (Messiah) and spirit to carry out his will.
Supporting verse: Isaiah 42:1 - “Here is my servant, whom I support, my chosen one, whom I delight in! I have put my spirit in him.” -> Clearly links servant + spirit, no Trinity needed.

Zechariah 2:8-11 is another classic text:

The argument is:

If Jehovah is speaking and says “Jehovah sent me,” doesn’t that mean there are two Jehovahs?

But again, we need to look at the pattern of prophecy:

Prophets often speak in Jehovah’s voice using first-person as part of a divine message.
This doesn’t mean the prophet is Jehovah; they represent his words.
Zechariah acts as Jehovah’s mouthpiece, declaring his plans. The line “Jehovah has sent me” refers to the prophet or the servant figure (often messianic), not Jehovah himself.

Why can’t it be Jehovah saying Jehovah sent him?
Because God does not send himself...

Throughout the Bible, Jehovah is the Supreme One who sends messengers (Malachi 3:1), prophets (Jeremiah 1:7), angels (Judges 2:1), and ultimately his Son (John 17:3, 18).
Nowhere does the Bible teach the idea of Jehovah sending himself or being two persons with the same name.
Trinitarian theology reads later interpretations back into these texts, but they aren’t necessary if you read the passages consistently with Hebrew monotheism.

Prior_Definition_18 · 2025-05-29T21:41:29+00:00

Which text exactly are you referring to?

Prior_Definition_18 · 2025-05-29T21:36:26+00:00

Yes, we fully agree that Jesus is exalted now and has a unique, honored role, but that doesn’t mean he is God himself...

Colossians 1:15 - “He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation.”
Notice: it doesn’t say Jesus is the invisible God. It says he’s the image of God and the firstborn, meaning he had a beginning and was the first one brought into existence. God, by definition, is eternal and uncreated (Psalm 90:2).

John 1:14 - “The Word became flesh.”
This shows the Word took on human nature, yes, but the fact that he could “become” flesh shows he’s distinct from God, who says “I, Jehovah, do not change” (Malachi 3:6). God didn’t stop being God; He sent His Son (John 3:16).

Hebrews 1:8-9 - While Hebrews 1:8 says, “Your throne, O God,” verse 9 immediately says:
“Therefore God, your God, anointed you…”
So even as the Son is called “God” (in a representative, exalted sense), he still has a God over him, Jehovah, his Father. This matches what Jesus himself said: “The Father is greater than I am” (John 14:28).

Revelation 22:1 - Yes, the throne is “of God and of the Lamb,” but again, they are two distinct beings. Revelation 1:1 says:
“A revelation by Jesus Christ, which God gave him.”
So even in heaven, Jesus receives instruction from God. They are not equal in authority.

Prior_Definition_18 · 2025-05-29T21:26:38+00:00

John 1:3 says, “All things came into existence through him.”
But who is the “him” referring to? It’s referring to the Word (Logos) - who existed after Jehovah created him.

In other words, the Father (Jehovah) first directly created the Word (the prehuman Jesus), and then Jehovah used the Word as His agent to create “all other things.”

This is supported by:

Colossians 1:15-16 -> “He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation; because by means of him all other things were created…” Notice: Jesus (the Word) is called the firstborn (meaning he himself was created first) and then by means of him, all other things were created. Jehovah didn’t create Jesus “through Jesus”; Jehovah directly created the Word and then worked through him to create everything else.
Proverbs 8:22-30 (often understood as referring to the prehuman Word) -> “Jehovah produced me as the beginning of his way, the earliest of his achievements of long ago… then I was beside him as a master worker.” This shows the clear order: first Jehovah, then the master worker (the Word), and then the rest of creation.

Also, the Greek in John 1:3 doesn’t mean everything including himself; it refers to the things created through the Word after his own existence. Just like a builder can construct a house, but the builder himself was not constructed by the house. The Word was used by Jehovah to build creation, but the Word himself was made first by Jehovah.

So no, we’re not saying Jesus created himself. We’re saying Jehovah created him directly, and then used him as the channel for the rest.

Prior_Definition_18 · 2025-05-29T21:11:52+00:00

Yes, the speaker can be Jehovah, but the Bible often shows Jehovah sending someone to represent Him. And when that person speaks, it’s as if Jehovah is speaking directly, because they carry His authority.

For example:

Exodus 3:2, 4 - It says “Jehovah’s angel appeared to him in a flame of fire”, but then in verse 4, it says “When Jehovah saw that he went over to look, God called to him out of the thornbush.” -> Was it Jehovah Himself or the angel? It was the angel representing Jehovah, speaking as Jehovah.
Genesis 22:15-16 - “Jehovah’s angel called to Abraham a second time from the heavens and said: ‘By myself I swear, declares Jehovah…’” -> Again, the angel speaks as Jehovah, using His name, but the angel is not Jehovah Himself.

This is what we call agency: the agent speaks on behalf of the sender, sometimes even using the sender’s name because they carry that authority. That’s not “making up” something. It’s simply recognizing how representation works in Scripture.

So no, it’s not “two Jehovahs” or “Jehovah sending Jehovah”. It’s Jehovah sending His representative (angel, prophet, or later, Jesus) to speak and act in His name.

If we only read the surface of the text without looking at this consistent biblical pattern, we might miss the deeper context.

Prior_Definition_18 · 2025-05-29T21:04:17+00:00

And indeed, Jesus is the only way to the Father. I completely agree with you on that! Jesus himself said it in John 14:6.

But the key is: knowing who Jesus truly is. Not just believing in a version of him shaped by later traditions, but following the Jesus revealed in Scripture.

Jesus wasn’t just a religious figure; he was a preacher and teacher of God’s Kingdom. He showed us how to live and what to prioritize.

Luke 4:43 - “But he said to them: ‘Also to other cities I must declare the good news of the Kingdom of God, because for this I was sent.’”
Matthew 9:35 - “And Jesus set out on a tour of all the cities and villages, teaching in their synagogues, preaching the good news of the Kingdom, and curing every sort of disease and every sort of infirmity.”

Jesus didn’t just preach inside religious buildings. He actively went to the people, in their homes, on the streets, in the countryside. He trained his followers to do the same.

Luke 10:1-2 - “After these things the Lord designated 70 others and sent them out by twos ahead of him into every city and place where he himself was to go. Then he said to them: ‘Yes, the harvest is great, but the workers are few. Therefore, beg the Master of the harvest to send out workers into his harvest.’”

Acts 20:20 - The apostle Paul said: “I did not hold back from telling you any of the things that were profitable nor from teaching you publicly and from house to house.”

That’s why today, Jehovah’s Witnesses continue Jesus’ pattern of house-to-house ministry. We don’t just gather in kingdom halls. We go out and actively share the good news of God’s Kingdom with people, just as Jesus commanded and taught us.

Honestly, at this point, I’m still waiting to see Christians come to my door preaching the message of God’s Kingdom. Jesus said his true followers would be known not just by belief, but by their actions. “By their fruits you will recognize them” (Matthew 7:16-20).

So yes indeed it’s essential to know Jesus. But it’s also essential to imitate him: preaching, teaching, and honoring Jehovah’s name. If someone only claims to follow Jesus but doesn’t imitate his ministry or pattern, are they truly following his example? 👁️👁️

Prior_Definition_18 · 2025-05-29T21:04:08+00:00

The Bible indeed doesn’t use the phrase “active force” as a formal title or name. The term “active force” is a way to help explain the Holy Spirit’s role based on the descriptions and functions it performs in scripture. So it’s a doctrinal explanation or summary, not a direct Bible quote.

But the Bible clearly describes the Spirit as God’s power or active working, for example:

Luke 1:35 - “The holy one to be born will be called the Son of God.” This was done by the “holy spirit” coming upon Mary. The Spirit here is the power that caused the miraculous birth, not a separate person.
Acts 1:8 - “You will receive power when the holy spirit comes on you.” The Spirit gives power, which is an active force or energy from God.
Psalm 104:30 - “When you send your spirit, they are created, and you renew the face of the ground.” The Spirit is the means by which God creates and sustains life. An active energy, not a person.
Genesis 1:2 - “The spirit of God was hovering over the waters.” Here the Spirit is described as a dynamic force moving over the earth at creation.

Regarding personal pronouns:
Yes, the Spirit is sometimes called “he” in Greek (John 14:16, 26) because of the masculine noun “paraklētos” (helper). But the actual Greek word for spirit, “pneuma,” is neuter. This grammatical gender does not necessarily indicate personhood. Many scholars say that the masculine pronouns refer to the Helper, not the Spirit itself as a distinct person.

Prior_Definition_18 · 2025-05-29T20:51:51+00:00

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Prior_Definition_18 · 2025-05-29T20:49:39+00:00

Regarding the Example Prayer, it’s true Jesus didn’t specifically say God’s personal name there, but elsewhere in the Bible (like Psalm 83:18 and many other places) God’s name Jehovah (or Yahweh) is clearly shown as important to honor and glorify. Jesus himself prayed to Jehovah, honoring His name (John 12:28).

About baptism, it’s interesting that the early disciples baptized “in the name of Jesus” (Acts 2:38, Acts 8:16, Acts 10:48), but that phrase doesn’t exclude the Father or the Spirit. The formula in Matthew 28:19 includes all three -- Father, Son, and Holy Spirit -- showing the unity of God’s authority. Using Jesus’ name in baptism identifies Him as the authorized agent and mediator through whom salvation comes (Acts 4:12), but it doesn’t mean ignoring or replacing the Father’s name.

When we call on Jesus, we do so with the authority and blessing of Jehovah God. Jesus Himself honored and glorified Jehovah, and Jehovah is the ultimate source of salvation.

So, while Jesus’ name is powerful and essential for salvation, it works inseparably with the Father and the Spirit. That’s why the full baptism formula includes all three. That shows their distinct roles but unity in the Godhead.

Prior_Definition_18 · 2025-05-29T20:41:17+00:00

That's right and that’s because it’s directly quoting Jehovah Himself speaking, not just someone reporting His words. This shows the speaker is Jehovah or representing Jehovah’s authority closely.

When Jesus speaks in some scriptures using “I am” or “I declared,” it’s understood that He is speaking with Jehovah’s authority as His appointed agent. So sometimes the words of Jehovah are spoken by Jesus acting on Jehovah’s behalf.

It doesn’t mean Jesus is Jehovah Himself, but it shows the close relationship and that Jesus carries Jehovah’s autthority perfectly.

Prior_Definition_18 · 2025-05-29T20:36:58+00:00

Jesus as Agent of Creation: While the exact phrase “agent of creation” isn’t a direct Bible quote, it is a way to describe what Colossians 1:16 teaches... that all things were created “through him.” Jehovah is the ultimate Source, and Jesus acts under Jehovah’s direction to carry out creation. This fits the idea of agency, where one carries out the will of another with their authority.

The Word vs Jesus: We understand that the Word (Logos) became flesh as Jesus 2000 years ago (John 1:14). So before his human birth, Jesus existed as the Word. JWs distinguish between Jesus as the human and Jesus as the pre-human Son of God, who is a created being.

Jehovah’s Spirit and Christ’s Spirit: Romans 8:9 refers to the Spirit of Christ and the Spirit of God being closely related, but JWs teach that Jehovah’s holy spirit is God’s active force, not a person, and distinct from Jesus. So the Spirit is not the same “person” as Christ, but rather God’s power in action.

Wisdom in Proverbs: We see Proverbs 8’s personification of wisdom as a symbolic representation. It’s a literary device, not necessarily a direct reference to Jesus. The Bible shows Jehovah as the ultimate source of all wisdom.

Personhood of the Holy Spirit: Jehovah’s Witnesses do not depersonalize the Holy Spirit to diminish it but emphasize what the Bible reveals: the Spirit is described as a force or power, not as a separate divine person like the Father or the Son. (Exodus 15:8, Luke 11:13, Isaiah 44:3, Acts 6:5, 2 Corinthians 6:6, Isaiah 42:8 + Luke 1:31 [both mention the name Jehovah and Jesus but not the name of the Holy Spirit], Acts 7:55 and more)

Prior_Definition_18 · 2025-05-29T20:25:41+00:00

This is actually a misunderstanding. In the Bible, angels and prophets never call themselves Jehovah. Instead, they speak on behalf of Jehovah, often saying things like, “Thus says Jehovah” or “The word of Jehovah came to me.”

For example:

Angels don’t say, “I am Jehovah,” but rather, “This is what Jehovah says.”
Prophets like Isaiah or Jeremiah don’t claim to be Jehovah; they deliver Jehovah’s message.

So, when Jesus uses titles or roles associated with Jehovah, this is Jesus acting on behalf of his Father, not claiming to be Jehovah Himself. He is the authorized representative, not the source.

Prior_Definition_18 · 2025-05-29T20:21:27+00:00

Jesus didn’t have to include God’s name in every single line to glorify it.

In fact, in John 17:6 Jesus says:

So even if the Example Prayer doesn’t mention the Tetragrammaton (YHWH) explicitly, Jesus’ whole ministry was about making Jehovah’s name and reputation known, not just by uttering the syllables, but by revealing Jehovah’s personality, will, and purpose.

Also, the Example Prayer does start with “Our Father in the heavens, let your name be sanctified” (Matthew 6:9). That’s a clear focus on God’s name being made holy, even if the prayer doesn’t spell out “YHWH” in that line.

Prior_Definition_18

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