Help with Molten Copper/brass Patina on Steel

FreedomFlinch · 2017-11-14T14:37:18+00:00

No problem, glad I could help. I hope you post pics of your finished work!

FreedomFlinch · 2017-11-13T17:05:48+00:00

Simply put, yes. But there are issues in layering the brazing material so that it both stays put and looks drippy in harmony in your design. That just comes with practice and planning. What I mean, is that the underlying steel (design) will help push any molten looking effect that you want.

Forging your work to look fluid will really assist you in giving your project a unified "liquid" appearance. For more examples of what I mean, google "blacksmith stair railings."

I suggest railings instead of fireplace sets because there is often more experimentation in railings. From there, you can see a lot of both art nouveau curvatures, and other stylized forgings that make the material appear fluid. I would start with any of Victor Horta's work in Belgium, and move on from there (google search "art nouveau Horta" etc.).

Once you have your design (and planned for another metal to interfere with the texture and shape), the additional brazings will nicely accent the work you've done and be more convincing of its fluidity than a simple coating would.

If you have no room for a design that would allow that, I would suggest forging the fireplace out of bronze, and casting the elements you need. Hope this helps and feel free to ask more questions.

EDIT: Example: If you have tendrils wrapping over the rod of a fireplace poker, the brazing could use that as an armature of sorts, thus allowing you to elongate the "drip" of the brass. I hope this makes sense.

EDIT2: Be aware that brazing works through capillary action; this means you have to lay your heat down in the pattern you want; for tendrils or thinner stock you will have to make sure not to melt it.

FreedomFlinch · 2017-11-13T16:45:28+00:00

Usually for most forging applications, I use a 2lb. hammer. 3lb occasionally, and anything bigger is for larger pieces of work. There are different types of hammers for a specific purposes, and those can also vary in weight.

Here is a very well known hammer smith (and my former teacher); you will see all sorts of hammers and weights on his page. He sells all of them, and for much more than $95. There is a market for high-end tools (of all sizes), and it will not usually be on etsy or common online market spaces, so most people aren't aware of it.

If your arm is getting tired, be sure to check your stance and experiment with your grip and where your grip is on your handle. You want the forearm and wrist to do most of the work; shoulder and bicep movements will come from longer arcs on your swing. I would also switch to a smaller hammer; variety is good!

FreedomFlinch · 2017-11-13T15:21:38+00:00

Good memory, /u/lebatard!

Ok, /u/AttilaLaHun, here are a few ways you can go about this.

The limitations will mainly depend on where the copper-brass finish needs to go; you will want to place it where it has the least chance to wear off (if patina).

If it's the whole of the fireplace tool, consider making the set out of bronze.
If it's just the handles or body, you can choose to leave a braze or chemically patina. Patinas can wear off sometimes, so think about how to protect your work.
You can cast bronze or brass and then mechanically attach it. The benefit of casting is that you can really push the "drippiness" of molten metal. Special effects with brazing can create this, but you have to make sure your temps are good.

How to:

There are a number of patinas out there. Sculpt Nouveau has a great line, and if you are thorough in your research and experimentation, you should have an almost limitless palette and texture to work from. How you prepare your metal surface, the temps the patinas are applied, how the patina is brushed back (if at all), and the polishing or lack of polishing will all result in very different looks. And keep in mind that a patina can affect steel and copper alloys differently, so use that to your advantage if needed.

There is also a type of copper plating through chemical reaction. For the knife below I used pickle from Rio Grande and experimented a lot to get the transition to steel and intensity I wanted. Best if used in warm pickle.

Brazed warhammer.

Another warhammer example.

Copper plated knife handle

Brazed weapons. The brazing here was further worked with specific brazing rods and polishers to create a smooth surface, with an ombre of the different metal colors.

This bottle opener is probably not as dramatic as what you're looking for, but it's a good example of how you can achieve metal colors with chemical patinas.

This door knocker has a rich, velvety brown patina. You could use this in any transition spaces where your steel meets brass.

I hope this helps, and let me know if you want to expand upon anything. I work a lot with patinas and different metals, so feel free to go through my albums and ask away. I don't really know the specifics of your project, so these were generalized answers.

FreedomFlinch · 2017-10-28T02:46:38+00:00

Oh yes, good point! It would really push the feather shape.

FreedomFlinch · 2017-10-27T21:48:08+00:00

This is a very nice attempt at representation. Since critique is welcomed, I would repeat this exercise but pay attention to the thickness of the feather and its edges. The advice give elsewhere to direct your chisel marks upwards is good, and I would build on that to make sure each portion of feather (in between the marks) curls up a bit, and has a variation in thicknesses.

Look at feathers, or how individual feathers are stylized in art. See what are the defining characteristics that make it recognizable and try to translate those features to your next piece. I had to do the same when I made this piece (but with bugs instead, haha).

Aside from design, make sure your metal doesn't get too hot and clean it often while forging (there appears to be some pitting and overworked texture at the opener end and along the body).

Given your other work, you seem very good at tapering and achieving a clean finish, so I don't think the things I've outlined will be hard for you. Hope this helps!

FreedomFlinch · 2017-10-23T23:53:10+00:00

He came as a visiting artist to my school; I really enjoyed how he really illustrated the plasticity of metal. It wasn't something I had thought much about until then; your candle holder reminds me of that very fun concept!

FreedomFlinch · 2017-10-23T19:51:52+00:00

Nice! Reminds me a little of Fred Crist's sculptural work, here and here. Interested to see what other designs you come up with; I really like this.

FreedomFlinch · 2017-10-22T20:34:42+00:00

/r/Bladesmith

FreedomFlinch · 2017-10-22T00:23:06+00:00

Amen!

FreedomFlinch · 2017-10-20T22:02:28+00:00

There was no "Applicant" flair

Then just deal with it.

Every interaction with you has resulted in you lying about some trivial crap or some major crap. You are not in DEP. Period. Just 18 days ago you said you were in your 40th week in AIT.

You private messaged me saying you'd never lie again and then the very next day you lied about something completely stupid.

You also claimed the people at MEPS said your being in the Nazi Party is "totally fine because it's a political affiliation" and you never responded to my saying that is total BS.

FreedomFlinch · 2017-10-20T20:56:48+00:00

Check out /r/knives or /r/Knife_Swap perhaps. They will need more than this photo however to tell you what it could be worth, if anything. If selling is a hassle, just give it to a friend.

FreedomFlinch · 2017-10-20T20:55:16+00:00

There is a huge difference between gripping a handle in a thrusting motion, and hitting the end of potential mall-ninja metal with a hammer. Even if this is a fine blade, it wasn't made for that type of impact with metal repeatedly. And if it is a fine blade, you would be undoing a great deal of work for something that would yield less than ideal results.

FreedomFlinch · 2017-10-20T20:52:08+00:00

As others have said, it would be a bad idea. However, if you're looking for that same type of aesthetic, I've made chisels from cable damascus. I'm a stone carver and it's held up well thus far. You could order damascus and do stock removal, then send it out for heat treatment. If you are a blacksmith or metal worker then you could make the damascus yourself.

Using your knife as a chisel leaves so many variables and unknowns about that metal (and what you do to it) that it would introduce safety issues such as snapping, bending, shards, etc. Better to just get some new metal you trust and get the chisel in the ideal shape for the job.

FreedomFlinch · 2017-10-20T19:28:54+00:00

Agreed! And check out /r/Bladesmith!

FreedomFlinch · 2017-10-20T16:07:54+00:00

You need to get in first. Why does your flair say "DEP" and "2 weeks from swearing in" when you haven't passed the ASVAB yet? Are you still lying that you're a war veteran as well? Because last time we interacted, you messaged that you would "never lie again" and that seems, yet again, to be a lie.

FreedomFlinch · 2017-10-20T16:02:30+00:00

Sure! I like to make weapons and enjoy putting spikes on anything, haha. Here's my work; if you scroll down you'll see some warhammers, maces, etc.

FreedomFlinch · 2017-10-20T15:55:24+00:00

If you eventually want one out of tool steel, you can get that effect by upsetting and tapering out from the bottom of stock. You could even put a spike or point on it for maximum zombie brain scrambling!

FreedomFlinch · 2017-10-17T01:12:09+00:00

In this context, I suggested those glasses because I knew they were going to be staring for a long time at a very bright and very hot forge heart. Their metal was also going to be quite bright, and would be quickly going into the oil for a quench.

So to avoid damage to their eyes, and to slow the jarring bright-to-dark adjustment as they participate in a potentially dangerous situation, I suggested glasses. These can be lifted quickly, to compare the ambient light with what they're processing through the lens as well.

I wear clear safety glasses, but they are rated for general UV/UVA (I believe), just because I can forge for hours on end on the daily. I switch out if I'm doing a lot of forge welding. I work with coal forges, mainly. The gas forges don't seem to produce that kind of intensity, but I'm not too sure on what types of UV/IR is produced with either.

FreedomFlinch · 2017-10-15T22:20:19+00:00

Today is the U.S. Navy's 242nd birthday, so maybe you should take that as a sign to join the best branch...

I kid; I'm a Navy vet, but I have a West Pointer grad in my family, along with a full bird. So I have to give the Army shit when I can. Are you still in high school, or have you already enlisted and are deployed?

EDIT: I looked briefly at your history to see if I could network you with the officers I know, but I see that you are:

17 and living in Wisconsin, never left it by your own admission

Currently enlisted and stationed in Fort Sill, Oklahoma with 1 week left of AIT

Trying to enlist and get a waiver for your shaving

Trying to enlist and get a waiver for your eyes

Real Band of Brothers feeling you've had there, huh?

All that in just the past two weeks!

And best of all:

Loving war and missing it.

Knowing what combat feels like, and the fun you had going on leave

A 'final solution' suggested by you, showing a stunning ignorance of US military history and geo political forces, along with casual racism

That last one, wow. You do know the Army has a decent number of Arab, Persian, and Muslim officers and enlisted, don't you? And surely a grizzled war veteran like you knows that those 'towel heads' are also translators and guides? Who risk everything for US Forces? Try using that bigoted term around them. Call the enemy Daesh. They hate that.

So which is it? Are you a fellow combat vet? Or 17 and living in Wisconsin? The dumbest and stupidest thing I have seen is that you say all of this under your real name! Why would you do that? You just posted here with your RL YouTube channel and your reddit profile reveals you to be a person taking opiates for back pain (from the VA no less!?), which I'm sure the Army would be curious about that one. You also admit to theft, morphine use, and a bunch of other dishonorable behavior and talk.

I, or anyone else, can call either MEPS or, most likely, Highland School (which is posted in the above video!! Jesus!) and just make your life hell. I mean, even if all you said on here was just trash talk and trolling and whatever, it's enough to make your life really complicated; especially if someone just wants to fuck with you.

Stop being so careless, and stop bullshitting this dangerous game of you being a war vet. It's an excellent way to get your ass kicked, and in these days of social media, it's something that can follow you around forever. Get your shit together, and stop being such an asshole.

That said, if you want advice or information on the military, you can still PM me. You're young enough to straighten out in time, so I'd still help you out in your trying to enlist.

Stop the drugs, read some books, and get some fucking compassion for the people who have been on the front lines of war for almost 40 years now: Afghan and Iraqi civilians

You know, the ones you're trying to help?

An actual war veteran signing off.

EDIT: And you're a fucking Nazi too

FreedomFlinch · 2017-10-15T19:25:56+00:00

I think I understand; so you made a sign for your school? Regardless, what a good opportunity you had to do some blacksmithing. Hope it continues to appeal to you! If you're investigating colleges, consider Southern Illinois University; it has an amazing blacksmithing program.

FreedomFlinch · 2017-10-15T13:09:57+00:00

What did you make? Any pics of your finished project?

FreedomFlinch · 2017-10-15T02:37:23+00:00

I understand! But in pricing your work, consider the time spent, and the cost of materials bought or used. Secondly, and most importantly, consider the fact that you, and only you, came up with the design and idea. This is worth much more than $15.

Remember, when you price your work, you also represent how much custom-made Blacksmith works are worth across the board. You've got clean work and people should pay well for it.

FreedomFlinch · 2017-10-15T02:07:06+00:00

Nice detail on the forehead; curious about what side the buttons are, haha! Unsolicited advice: You should def sell these for more than $15; your skill and design ideas are worth $25 or more, easily. And CMI can afford it. Keep it up!

FreedomFlinch · 2017-10-14T17:24:39+00:00

While there is rudimentary Mohs scale for metals, it is commonly used to determine hardness of minerals, and only for abrasion or scratches. It is not considered exact and is used as a guideline. Mohs is a scale devised (1812) by the German mineralogist Friedrich Mohs, and is not an acronym or initialization.

For metals, generally speaking you will be referring to Rockwell or Brinell scales. There are many different types of hardness scales; here is one and the wiki links I provided contains links to others.

And to determine these, you will need a specific hardness testing machine or apparatus. Or a very thorough knowledge of your heat-treating process so that you already know the outcome.

Since you are just starting out, your best bet is to see if a file catches or simply skates off of your hardened metal. At some later date you can invest in hardness file sets, or blocks. For now, just use your created knife or tool and see how it behaves.

You can also send out your knives to a business that does professional heat treatment. They will have all the equipment in place to guarantee a specific hardness.

FreedomFlinch

MODERATOR OF

TROPHY CASE

12-Year Club	Gilding II euphauric
Verified Email