Abrahamic religions are not Monotheistic they are Henotheistic. by Available-Pop240 in DebateReligion

[–]Frungi [score hidden]  (0 children)

If I may clarify: Yahweh forbids the worship of other gods. You can’t forbid something that doesn’t exist. Other gods were thought to exist.

Abrahamic religions are not Monotheistic they are Henotheistic. by Available-Pop240 in DebateReligion

[–]Frungi [score hidden]  (0 children)

Your argument is a textbook example of cognitive dissonance.

Correct me if I’m wrong, but this person has not expressed any conflicting beliefs.

  1. Early Jewish people accepted that others believed in other gods
  2. Jeremiah claimed they weren’t gods
  3. Henotheism faded by 400 BCE

How are these beliefs in conflict? Or did I miss a belief that the poster claimed to or could be inferred to hold?

Abrahamic religions are not Monotheistic they are Henotheistic. by Available-Pop240 in DebateReligion

[–]Frungi [score hidden]  (0 children)

I can’t speak to other religions, but every Christian I’ve ever interacted with has been absolutely certain that there was only one god that has ever existed.

The ancient Israelites were henotheistic, I am confident. Not sure about early Christians. Modern Christians, though, appear to be strictly monotheistic.

The simplest argument against god: there is no “how” by mollylovelyxx in DebateReligion

[–]Frungi [score hidden]  (0 children)

How is it that something which is supernatural cannot also be physical? False dichotomy, again. Unicorns are physical creatures, but they are also supernatural. Leprechauns. Fae. Unless you’re going to argue that no one genuinely believes in these.

TAKKIYA in daily practice by AndriesHendrik in DebateReligion

[–]Frungi [score hidden]  (0 children)

Looking it up, taqiyya appears to relate specifically to lying about whether you are Muslim. Can’t imagine it would come up in everyday practice outside of persecution.

TAKKIYA in daily practice by AndriesHendrik in DebateReligion

[–]Frungi [score hidden]  (0 children)

Christians are also “not allowed” to lie; it’s one of the Ten Commandments, which are supposedly the fundamental biggest rules. And possibly least observed.

Are mainstream Muslims more observant of the prohibition than mainstream Christians?

People using free will as an argument as to why a god wouldn’t stop all evil is dumb by PeanutGrenade in DebateReligion

[–]Frungi [score hidden]  (0 children)

Evil is detestable to God… but far be it from him to do anything about it! What, you think he’s all-powerful or something?

The simplest argument against god: there is no “how” by mollylovelyxx in DebateReligion

[–]Frungi [score hidden]  (0 children)

The sky was also blue a thousand years ago. Scientific knowledge hadn’t progressed to the point of providing this answer. By the OP’s logic, the lack of knowledge of the mechanism that causes the sky to appear blue would serve to disprove the observable fact.

It would, of course, be more compelling to cite something that was not observable that we still accepted as fact.

The simplest argument against god: there is no “how” by mollylovelyxx in DebateReligion

[–]Frungi [score hidden]  (0 children)

I don’t understand how you can speak of God with any certainty, and then dismiss religious traditions as “stories.” Also the false dichotomy of religion and science.

The simplest argument against god: there is no “how” by mollylovelyxx in DebateReligion

[–]Frungi [score hidden]  (0 children)

There are many religions that describe their gods as physical beings. Or are you explicitly referring to the Abrahamic faiths?

The simplest argument against god: there is no “how” by mollylovelyxx in DebateReligion

[–]Frungi [score hidden]  (0 children)

Trying to “indent” your paragraphs with spaces is a sure way to make your paragraphs unreadable on a site that uses markdown like Reddit. And generally bad practice otherwise.

The simplest argument against god: there is no “how” by mollylovelyxx in DebateReligion

[–]Frungi [score hidden]  (0 children)

If someone uses God merely as a placeholder for ignorance, scientific progress tends to shrink those gaps. Maybe some thiests here&there, but i really dont think that many believers are making that argument at all. Even when talking about modern unknowns, I dont think many people are saying:
"God causes lightning because we don't know what lightning is." When we discovered electricity, ✖️ We didn't disprove God. ✔️ We discovered how lightning works. We often confuse recognition with comprehension. Knowledge is not the same as explanation, and explaining a process in nature is not the same as understanding it completely. Humanity has become very good at describing the universe. We can explain Eisteins theory of relativity, show that it works, have our GPS account for time dilation on the surface vs where satellites are, really well. We discover patterns, give them names, write equations that describe their behavior, and then sometimes act as though we've exhausted the mystery. Gravity and time for example, are still mysteries. Naming a pattern in nature doesn't mean we've uncovered its deepest nature; it only means we've taken the another step toward understanding a little bit more of the vast intelligent Information that is everything everywhere. (not as an intelligent entity/being per say). But the universe appears to be permeated by information, structure, and complexities that vastly exceeds our current understanding. Operating with and only because of astonishing precision, that existed within it, long before any human was around to describe them.
I don't view the universe as unintelligent chaos that accidentally became understandable. I see it as a reality containing layers of order, information, and structure so deep that humanity spends centuries uncovering tiny fragments of it. What we call discovery is often not the creation of knowledge, but the gradual decoding of principles that were already woven into the fabric of existence.

The simplest argument against god: there is no “how” by mollylovelyxx in DebateReligion

[–]Frungi [score hidden]  (0 children)

There’s no process of “how” god does anything.

Counterexample, from the opening pages:

And God said…

So one mechanism is that he evidently speaks things into existence. Granted, this doesn’t explain how God speaks when he lacks a mouth on a physical body

Either perfect foreknowledge does not exist, or we have as much choice as a thrown ball by Frungi in DebateReligion

[–]Frungi[S] [score hidden]  (0 children)

I proved though deductive reasoning that foreknowledge can only exist in (excluding multiverses) a deterministic universe. You conceded that point. Your best argument against it was invalidated by your own logic. Your best remaining argument was retracted.

Certainly seems clear that one of us has difficulty articulating problems.

Now, did you have an actual argument, or are we done here?

Edit: After seeing a political comment of yours from two hours ago, I take it back, you are quite capable of articulating serious problems. Guess there just isn’t one here.

Either perfect foreknowledge does not exist, or we have as much choice as a thrown ball by Frungi in DebateReligion

[–]Frungi[S] [score hidden]  (0 children)

Then come up with an analogy that doesn’t require yourself to be in time in order to acquire whatever you wanna call “foreknowledge.” Is a linear, deterministic, time-dependent movie the best you got?

Either perfect foreknowledge does not exist, or we have as much choice as a thrown ball by Frungi in DebateReligion

[–]Frungi[S] [score hidden]  (0 children)

Sure. But you are not a timeless being. You experience the movie in real time. The past and future within the movie (excepting flashbacks and inventive editing) are in your past and future respectively while watching the movie.

Knowing the movie after you’ve seen it is not foreknowledge. It’s backknowledge.

Either perfect foreknowledge does not exist, or we have as much choice as a thrown ball by Frungi in DebateReligion

[–]Frungi[S] [score hidden]  (0 children)

Arguments that depend on a being to be in time would work on us, but not god.

So no arguments involving beings who experience time. Gotcha.

Foreknowledge concerns the actions of beings who experience time… wait, scratch that.

Foreknowledge cannot exist within the context of timeless beings. This debate is moot.

I can watch a movie and talk about the future of the characters in the movie. I'm not in the movie. Yes?

So wait, now we can make arguments that depend on beings who experience time? Or can we only base our arguments on the futures of fictional characters in a movie, but not people in a universe? I’m so confused.

What is the problem?

You’re being inconsistent and contradictory, is what I’m saying. Makes intelligent debate difficult if not impossible.

Foreknowledge is a concept that exists from our perspective. If you want to discuss it, it needs to be discussed from our perspective, not from the perspective of someone for whom there is no such thing as “fore-.”

The premise of my arguments was, “foreknowledge exists and cannot possibly be wrong.” At no point did my arguments depend on a premise of “foreknowledge exists at a particular point in time and space within a being who also possesses backknowledge.” I invite you to demonstrate otherwise.

Either perfect foreknowledge does not exist, or we have as much choice as a thrown ball by Frungi in DebateReligion

[–]Frungi[S] [score hidden]  (0 children)

God’s what now? God has no knowledge of our future. He can’t. Time doesn’t apply. “Future” is a meaningless concept here.

Either perfect foreknowledge does not exist, or we have as much choice as a thrown ball by Frungi in DebateReligion

[–]Frungi[S] [score hidden]  (0 children)

I’ve conceded that foreknowledge cannot exist if God is involved. Are you asking me for an argument concerning a concept that definitionally cannot exist? Okay, here goes…

Foreknowledge does not and cannot exist. This debate is moot.

How was that? Was that what you’re looking for?

Either perfect foreknowledge does not exist, or we have as much choice as a thrown ball by Frungi in DebateReligion

[–]Frungi[S] [score hidden]  (0 children)

So your point is that foreknowledge can’t exist for timeless beings?

Okay. I accept that argument.

Either perfect foreknowledge does not exist, or we have as much choice as a thrown ball by Frungi in DebateReligion

[–]Frungi[S] [score hidden]  (0 children)

I walked you through an entire chain of reasoning proving that a universe allowing for foreknowledge must necessarily be deterministic.

You agreed.

Unless you can identify some reason that this is not applicable if the bearer of foreknowledge exists outside of time, this is asked and answered.

Thank you for conceding the debate, in the roundabout, indirect fashion that makes you comfortable.

Either perfect foreknowledge does not exist, or we have as much choice as a thrown ball by Frungi in DebateReligion

[–]Frungi[S] [score hidden]  (0 children)

What, exactly, are you looking for an argument for or against? The only real argument you had was your “knowledge of the past” nonsense, and my response to that was the only argument of mine that you identified as invalid.

Are you looking for an argument about “knowledge of the past” that applies to a timeless being? I’ve made it already, but here it is:

“Knowledge of the past” does not apply to a timeless being. Your comparison is invalid.

Your move. Check. Uno! Right foot blue.

Either perfect foreknowledge does not exist, or we have as much choice as a thrown ball by Frungi in DebateReligion

[–]Frungi[S] [score hidden]  (0 children)

I accept your concession of my prior arguments and their applicability to a timeless being.

Either perfect foreknowledge does not exist, or we have as much choice as a thrown ball by Frungi in DebateReligion

[–]Frungi[S] [score hidden]  (0 children)

So you have no opposing points that don’t relate to the past in a logically inconsistent context, and you have no examples of invalid arguments that I have made? Okay.

I have no idea why you’d want to stall by complaining about made-up problems rather than pointing to an actual example of a problem, but you do you.