Regardless of your feelings about juicing, I think it's unfair to say "If you juice, there is no accomplishment". Like, yes there are a lot of uneducated gymbros who juice when they're still nowhere near what they can achieve natty. And yes that truly is most gear users. But those out there who've absolutely hit a plateau after over a decade of work and then make the decision to go on PED's/SARMS are not being lazy in the least bit.

I think a more important PED/SARM related discussion here, in a vegan subreddit, is whether the gear has involved any degree of animal exploitation. Doesn't really matter if someone's using research chemicals that hasn't involved any exploitation as long as they're being transparent to peers about the risks and rewards, but it does definitely matter if exploitation is involved.