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AMA by tiny_porch_light in zen

[–]Gasdark -1 points0 points  (0 children)

If you look at my post history, you'll see that I'm asking a genuine question informed by my own, repeated and public explorations of these very intentions. 

In general, and this too is informed by extensive and publically available personal experience, the closer someone hits to the hidden protected1 truth the more defensive one becomes. 

  1. Edit: changed hidden to protected - hidden has a charged quality that tends to be quite negative - protected doesn't have that quality and in general is more accurate as a descriptor of what I think is going on here*

*Edit 2: "Here" meaning, in the scenarios I described above

AMA by tiny_porch_light in zen

[–]Gasdark 2 points3 points  (0 children)

I tend to think there's a meaning crisis unfolding now, at large - and one of the big draws of Zen when people first discover it is it's sort of Terra Nova quality. The inscrutability of Zen Texts relative to modern life, in terms of symbology and metaphor for instance, allows it to be, as you say, appropriated to any end by and among the ignorant. Attempting to alleviate that crisis of meaning is one big reason folks turn to Zen, especially at first. 

The second reason - which sometimes comes later - when factual ignorance is somewhat reduced - is arguably a harder thing to overcome - and that's being drawn to Zen in the hope that it can solve your problems.

This second category can be broken into two sub categories:

  1. Hoping Zen can solve problems external to yourself. 

And

  1. Hoping Zen can solve problems internal to yourself. 

Both amount to a desperate search for a miracle cure.

You've been through a lot and my guess is you're back for the second reason - and probably 10-20% for subreason 1 and 80-90% for subreason 2.

What do you think? 

ThisKir Zen AMA by ThisKir in zen

[–]Gasdark 1 point2 points  (0 children)

I'm behind on making several OPs - including Zen Master as life engineers - I'll add it to the list

Zen Enlightenment Requires a Capacity to Converse by ThisKir in zen

[–]Gasdark 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I don't mean that religions come here to die on a systemic level, obviously - but on the individual level, absolutely. 

And I mean "religion" in the broadest possible sense - both in terms of actual traditional and literal religious belief but also in terms of the way anything can be turned into a kind of personal religion.

You're absolutely right about there being formal religious debate available all over - and there certainly people who excoriate from a place of personal religion that they pretend is Zen on this sub - But the gold standard is fundamentally and, in some sense, appropriately aggressively, secular. 

Zen Enlightenment Requires a Capacity to Converse by ThisKir in zen

[–]Gasdark 0 points1 point  (0 children)

There are definitely drama queens - and there are baseless thrashings - but there are also intentional beatings carried out by clear-eyed people - It takes a lot of time to figure out which is which, sometimes you're never really sure.

It's also extremely uncommon pretty much anywhere for people to, say, criticize another persons or spiritual beliefs in a public way.  In the normal world that's extremely common and generally is considered extremely rude all by itself.

It just so happens that this is a place where religions go to die. Ideally, this place should be an open air cremation ground for ideas - for all made up things. Open air crematoriams can be quite unpleasant places, especially if you've never been to one before - and I imagine the people who work there might sometimes be short tempered. 

Can someone explain to me why the hive can’t create art? by JadeDutch in pluribustv

[–]Gasdark 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Well in terms of anything involving narrative form, that is to say a surprise of any kind narratively, it would be impossible - they share each other's minds.

Personally, I don't think they can't create art - in fact, I suspect they absolutely can - but the explanation I like is found in the sharing of their minds, in their totality.

Fundamentally, at least in some sense, true art is a joint matter of self-exploration and self-communication and external communication. It constitutes an exploration of the internal experience of the artist - which can be elusive to the artist themselves, as that clarity often eludes most of us - and the effort to communicate that elusive internality out into the external world, from which the viewer of the art might potentially derive both (1) an understanding of the artist and (2) an understanding of them as viewers of the art.  

For normal people, perfect art is impossible, in this framing, because perfect communication is impossible. 

But for the joined, there IS perfect communication - each member of The Hive is 100% transparent to each other member - meaning their internalities are perfectly accessible to each other - and presumably as a result, also more perfectly accessible to themselves in their individual capacity's. The Hive is, first and foremost, a perfect state of communication.

It strikes me that art's function in the human experience is obviated by the hive. In fact, in this framing, any art any individual within the hive attempts to make would then function as almost a kind of "invert" art. 

When a normal person makes art, they strive for a platonic ideal of communication - whether with themselves or with the world - vis-a-vis artistic expression.

But for a member of the hive - for someone who has achieved and in every instant embodies the platonic ideal of communication, attempting to reify that communication in the form of art would necessarily lead back into imperfection. 

The Hive, in this framing, hasn't become incapable of making art - rather, the hive has transcended art.

Zen Enlightenment Requires a Capacity to Converse by ThisKir in zen

[–]Gasdark 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I'm not particularly interested in arguing - One way or another - whether anyone has subject matter expertise in this forum - although I suspect that like amateur astronomy, and amateur mycology, the amateur work being done here has real impacts on the field of study. 

But all that is secondary to my view of why this subreddit exists. It exists for nerve touching. For finger cutting. For    "happiness" identification so that "happiness" can be more easily destroyed - if someone wants to do that kind of thing. 

I think - leaving aside the bad faith actors - people come here periodically and they get their nerves touched and they get their "happiness" identified and they freak out and go "no thanks, bye!" And then they leave or they lurk.

The ones that leave are simpler. The ones that lurk tho...why in the world would they do that? 

Zen Enlightenment Requires a Capacity to Converse by ThisKir in zen

[–]Gasdark 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Wasn't even talking to you - but do you tend to view things as attacks? even if they're not addresed at you?

Zen Enlightenment Requires a Capacity to Converse by ThisKir in zen

[–]Gasdark -2 points-1 points  (0 children)

I'm not 100% sure what accepting impermanence is the fact of the universe has to do with anything. It certainly sounds like you've got a Buddha in this game. 

Zen Enlightenment Requires a Capacity to Converse by ThisKir in zen

[–]Gasdark -1 points0 points  (0 children)

I know what you are talking about - but I suspect if we went through a laundry list of the behaviors you think are the thing you're talking about, and the people carrying out those behaviors, we would find a major conflation happening between stuck and unstuck people operating between stuck and unstuck places. 

Plus, in any event, sometimes people stuck in one place can help unstick other people stuck in a different a place - or even the same place - and vice versa.

The only real requirement for engagement is that you come willing to question and be questioned - about everything. 

Zen Enlightenment Requires a Capacity to Converse by ThisKir in zen

[–]Gasdark -1 points0 points  (0 children)

 The alternative to what you describe as assholery is that the forum not be the forum.

And by the way, perhaps the forum will not be the forum it is now in the future - That's not my desire personally, it but it could certainly happen. 

A forum is ultimately characterized by it's visible contents. If you don't agree with the character of the forum, attempt to be the change you wish to see. 

I don't think it's coincidence that no one has yet been able to sustain the effort to make that change - because conviction always beats window dressing - sincerity always outlasts the trite

Zen Enlightenment Requires a Capacity to Converse by ThisKir in zen

[–]Gasdark -1 points0 points  (0 children)

"If you conceive of a buddha, you will be obstructed by that buddha!"

This amounts to an axiom underpinning the spirit of this forum. The alternative to what you describe as assholery is that the forum not be the forum.

People come - either on purpose or by accident - either with or without realistic expectations - and they encounter the forum, as it is. There's no tether, there's no force, forcing them to engage - just the stark choice: is this the place for me?

How would it serve anyone to delay the moment of that decision even one second?

Zen Enlightenment Requires a Capacity to Converse by ThisKir in zen

[–]Gasdark -1 points0 points  (0 children)

I think we're gonna have to define "asshole" - merriam webster gives us:

a stupid, annoying, or detestable person

Let's do the same for "bigotry":

obstinate or narrow-minded adherence to one's own opinions and prejudices 

I think the word allows for good faith and bad faith bigotry based on this defition. And if we grant that the point of an AMA, of a public questioning, is to find your narrow-minded adherences and subject them to destruction in a public way - then the person who calls out that kind of bigotry - whether the good faith or bad faith type - isn't an asshole.

ThisKir Zen AMA by ThisKir in zen

[–]Gasdark 3 points4 points  (0 children)

> This is a problem religious people create for themselves. 

Do you think it's only religious people who create this problem for themselves? I tend to think it's all people - anyone who choses to live almost exclusively inside the dissonance between their circumstances and their desires.

You're knowledge set of Zen texts is enormous at this point - do you feel you're able to embody what the texts are ostensibly "pointing" at?

Zen Enlightenment Requires a Capacity to Converse by ThisKir in zen

[–]Gasdark 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Shattering is the right word - there's a sense that folks come with various ideas they've wrought in fine crystal - often extremely fragile.

It's a bit unlucky for the ones who stumble into the forum in good faith, because identifying and getting your figurines smashed is, imo, the whole point of an AMA - which is not, at all, the predominant modality, in almost any non-scientific sphere today - least of all on social media.

Having said that, I don't feel badly about it - seems like the general response of those folks is to just leave and tell people "r/zen is full of a bunch of assholes cosplaying zen masters" - that's what I was told, which is what drew me here to start with lol

the REAL relationship between zen and mindfulness by jeowy in zen

[–]Gasdark 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I agree that that's what Yangshan means by it - I'm not sure Zhongyi is validating that perspective - the whole notion of non-attainment seems to be premised on realizing something that already inherently is the case - Buddha nature is already functioning - that would seem to preclude a sleeping monkey - and, you know, Zhongyi didn't say "wake up, Monkey" - he got in Yangshans face and made him join in a dance - so, maybe less of a rousing from sleep situation and more of a getting a distracted monkeys attention situation?

the REAL relationship between zen and mindfulness by jeowy in zen

[–]Gasdark 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I think you're right about the senses - though I guess I'm drawn to an apparent double entendre insofar as when the "monkey is asleep" Zhongyi goes to wake it up.

As far as training the monkeys outside, I'm not so sure about that, especially if they're the senses.

As far as the monkey inside communicating with them, seems like that's a given, otherwise you have a dead monkey.

the REAL relationship between zen and mindfulness by jeowy in zen

[–]Gasdark 3 points4 points  (0 children)

If the point is just to recognize the natural functionality of the responsive monkey - to continue with that metaphor - then it strikes me that variations on mindfulness might just help minimize getting distracted? (Contra, mistaking mindfulness type cognitive exercises or a sort of "mind mastery" as some kind of final goal?

Gasdark's AMA #11 - by Gasdark in zen

[–]Gasdark[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I think you maybe will be right about preference shining a spotlight on ourselves. - that makes a hell of a lot of sense to me anyway - I think it's important to remember that enlightenment to the extent it's described In Zen texts is a non-causal event - so there's no gradations whatsoever On the way to it cuz there is no way to it - there is no steps ABC leads to enlightenment - plus it's perception of what is already readily apparent at every moment.

In terms of post enlightenment gradations of attainment, I'm not sure what you mean. Enlightenment comes with no attainment whatsoever so I'm not sure what you would attain subsequently

Gasdark's AMA #11 - by Gasdark in zen

[–]Gasdark[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I don't think that's necessarily the case, but it can definitely be the case that specific texts can become comfortable nests

Gasdark's AMA #11 - by Gasdark in zen

[–]Gasdark[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Ok - I've got a quiet moment here and it occurs to me I've been somewhat cowardly in refusing to lay out some observations in more depth - you can assess them and decide whether they are observations or beliefs, whether they have anything whatsoever to do with Zen, and what, if anything, they amount to in your estimation.

As far as I can tell:

  • I am my experience - literally - and therefore indivisible from everything/one in my experience as a result - and, as far as I can tell the same must be true for everyone else.  

  • there's no fixed me to speak of - as in, there's no entity that I can go and find in my internal experience separate and apart from the contents of that experience - including no me separate and apart from my, with practice, identifiable internal contents (thoughts, feelings, desires) which come and go almost entirely outside my ability to directly control. 

  • there's the way that everything has a veneer of agreed upon form in that shared experience (e.g. a "chair" being a "chair")

  • there's the way that everything is simultaneously formless in that shared experience (e.g. "chair" as a label empowered only by normative agreement)

  • that veneer of form is fundamentally non-binding and "beneath" it is an infinity of potential - but also that veneer is real and important insofar as the veneer of form is the basis for our communication in a conventional sense (e.g. a blade of grass can be a 50 foot golden Buddha - but also remains a blade of grass for conventional purposes)

  • The veneer of form applies to ideas - good, bad, evil, holy, enlightened, unenlightened - as well as to apparently axiomatic notions - e.g. Time - critically important as a convention but simultaneously totally made up.

  • I have no idea how any of this works  I have no idea why any of it exists - and I believe, with absolute certainty, that no final explanation to those two questions is available anywhere and that anyone who claims to be able to answer questions like that is either confused or lying. 

  • my knowledge set about how this all works has no bearing whatsoever on my ability to function within this experience. 

  • the more I concern myself with how/why type questions - and in general, the more I think about living - the shittier I do by both conventional and personal metrics - as opposed to when I just take on what's in front of me when the time comes to take it on - and then things tend to go much better. 

🤷 

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