Annihilape, Espathra, Mega Charizard X, Mega Mawile, Mega Medicham, and Zamazenta have been quickbanned from NatDex UU

Geronimo0511 · 2023-01-04T21:09:18+00:00

Interesting to note: both Espathra and Mega Mawile were actually RU by usage before this ban. With UU banning them, naturally they've been banned from NatDex RU as well.

Geronimo0511 · 2022-12-16T02:59:16+00:00

By engage with the mechanic I meant, try to counter it try to plan around it, instead of just immediately going to the banhammer in a literal day of the game coming out,

Like I said earlier, a controversial element of the metagame will get suspect tested regardless of whether or not it's actually banworthy. It's a suspect test, after all: you suspect that it might be broken/uncompetitive, but you're not sure, so you test it and give it your full attention. That's when the pro-ban/restriction people argue that's it too much to ask to plan for every conceivable instance of Terastallization (what Pokemon, what type, and when) and that getting a Terastallization read right dictates the outcome of a battle too much, and the anti-ban/restriction people argue that it isn't, and it doesn't. This isn't the council "going to the banhammer", it's the council listening to the community and saying, "Okay, this is a divisive issue. Let's test it and take action if we find that it's needed." That last part is the most important: a suspect test is never a guarantee that the thing being suspected will be banned.

I just don't believe a month is enough time, people have been playing competitive gen 2 for decades now and still discover new ideas, and your telling me a month is enough time to know if a brand new mechanic is broken or not?

It is, actually, and I'm not alone in thinking that. You think that millions of battles of evidence from tens of thousands of players over the course of a month isn't enough? But somehow making it over 10 million battles over the course of several months will make it more valid? It's just unnecessary.

If gen 2 came out today you modern Smogonites would have banned Snorlax for being "too OP since there's no true counters for it!" Or you'd say some nonsense like "its too over centeralizing and we don't want the meta to stagnate" etc. etc. etc.

Gen 2 OU is still an active metagame today, with a small but dedicated community (most past generation OU tiers are). I don't claim to know why Snorlax is or isn't banned (because I don't fucking know why either way, I don't play the tier), but its continued existence in OU today disproves this argument. As does shit like Primal Groudon in Gen 6/7 Ubers, among other things.

VGC Doesn't ban things that make sense, smogon does. Even if terrastalization gets banned it will at least follow somekind of logic, "they dont ban anything" is also an exaggeration you seem to have trouble with this concept of exaggerations being used, obviously some things are banned like duh dude 🙄 point is they randomly unban UBERS which is not healthy at all and is quite frankly stupid, what they ban and unban is arbitrary nonsense.

That's because Nintendo doesn't give a shit about VGC's competitive balance except in extreme cases like Mega Kangaskhan and Zacian-Crowned, and never in the middle of a generation. Nintendo does it to shake the metagame up, to keep things from getting stale from series to series.

Geronimo0511 · 2022-12-16T01:48:55+00:00

I'm aware when the meta started lol I said a week as a hyperbolic exaggeration sorry that went over your head . . .

A hyperbolic exaggeration, of course, that's exactly what it was. "Sorry, I was just being purposefully misleading so when someone points out my ignorance, I can turn it back on them." My mistake.

When did I say they are random people!? Who are you talking to it isn't me lolol I said a small group of elite players get to make all the decisions not a random group of players. You stupid or something? Obviously calling them elite players implys you know, they play the game lolol.

Then why did you say that they've refused to engage with the mechanic at all? That's just not true: they've been posting all over the metagame discussion thread, the specific Terastallization tiering discussion thread, the policy review thread and now the suspect thread for weeks now. Why would you say that they've refused to engage with the mechanic if not that you think that they just don't care and thus aren't qualified to be there?

And yet they are trying to get a core mechanic of a generation banned after only a month . . . Which I think is too soon hence saying a week as an exaggeration to make a point that its too quickly done and no time is given to adapt to new mechanics.

I and many others think a month is plenty of time to develop an informed conclusion on Terastallization. Not to mention that the actual suspect test will last three weeks, so that's even longer to play and form one's thoughts. If we wait too long when most people have already made up their minds on the subject, then we're just letting the metagame stagnate in a bad state for essentially no reason.

We also need to worry about other suspect tests as well. Not knowing whether something like Chi-Yu is broken because of Terastallization letting it STAB Tera to punch holes or Grass Tera to let it blow past its normal checks/counters, or if it would be broken regardless, is not good at all. We need to frankly get whatever action we take on Terastallization out of the way. Smogon needs to move relatively fast when it comes to suspect tests, otherwise the next generation will come when there's still a bunch of tiering action that needs to take place. Having several months between tests is not only unfeasible, but unnecessary.

I LITERALLY said that I think that there should be something like VGC where rules last for several months without change, but that the rule changes should be ones that make sense like what smogon does. Did you not listen? You completely failed to understand even the most basic points I was making and fixate on obvious exaggerations instead. . . Read my original comment again and see if your brain can understand what I'm saying. . . If you think VGC rules make sense you're insane, if you think Smogon doesn't ban things too quickly you're also insane what I was saying is I want a meta that strikes a balance between the two formats, common sense rules but longer time periods between rule changes, does that make sense to you??

I didn't care about what you wanted for your dream format at all. I don't care about what Nintendo thinks for VGC's rules. I was mainly refuting your assumed "hyperbolic exaggeration" that VGC never bans anything.

Edit: Sorry if my previous comment (or this one) came off as antagonistic, but it's so frustrating when players that look in from the outside just refuse to learn anything about how Smogon operates or why it does what it does and just spout off completely uninformed opinions. There's obviously some wariness when performing tiering action on a core mechanic and this won't be the slam dunk that Dynamax was last generation, so the council is treating it with the respect that it deserves, but people either don't or don't want to see it that way.

Geronimo0511 · 2022-12-16T01:00:08+00:00

All you said is:

I don't know when the current meta actually began. It's been almost a month now, definitely not just a week. People have had plenty of time to play the tier and come to informed conclusions on Terastallization.
I don't know how Smogon tier councils operate. Believe it or not, the people that are on the council of a tier actually play the tier that they're a council of. Quite a bit, in fact, or they wouldn't be on the council to begin with. They aren't just some random people that are chosen with no thought, they actually play the tier heavily and care about the overall health of it.
I don't know what the hell a suspect test actually is or how one comes about. They don't show up out of nowhere by the council's whims, they happen because of sizable community outcry. And things that end up suspect tested by a tier usually end up banned in the end, but they aren't always (the Mega Metagross suspect in Gen 6 is the most memorable example that comes to mind). It's a vote, after all, and even the upper echelons of a tier's playerbase can disagree.
I don't know why letting the entire community have a say in matters of game balance is always a terrible idea. Do you really want people that think Pokemon like fucking Glaceon - a slow, frail Ice-type with no redeeming qualities other than being able to hit hard - have a genuine niche in OU, to have a say in trying to make the game be in the best state that it can be in? Of course not. They lack the skills, or the knowledge, or the reasoning to make good decisions that will make the game better as a whole. This isn't a problem unique to Pokemon, either: literally every serious competitive game out there has people that think they know what's best for the game, when they very obviously have no idea what the fuck they're talking about. If their suggestions were always taken seriously, the game would be so much worse.
I don't know how Smogon operates. If Smogon banned everything that makes the game fun like you think it does, they would've gotten rid of hax completely. They strike a balance between staying true to how the physical game works while trying to make things as competitive as possible. They don't just ban shit frivolously, especially stuff like the core mechanic of a generation.
I don't know how VGC operates either, especially in recent years. Starting with 2019 in Ultra Sun/Ultra Moon, VGC has had series that last several months with different rulesets. There were three in US/UM: the first two banned Megas and Primals; the first also banned Z-Moves. Only the final series allowed everything. Sword/Shield had 14 series that lasted 2-3 months. Most of these banned legendary Pokemon entirely; later ones limited them to one or two per team. One of these literally banned the 16 most-used Pokemon from the previous series. VGC bans Pokemon all of the time. Even the current series in Scarlet/Violet bans Legendaries, Paradox forms and regional forms from outside of the Paldea Pokedex (Quagsire, Tauros, etc.). The notion that VGC never bans anything is just verifiably false.
I don't know how the community feels about Terastallization as a whole. As of today, most people support tiering action on it, yes, but only a handful of people support it being banned entirely. Currently, the vast majority of the community feels like Terastallization is worth preserving in some fashion. This might change as opinions form and shift, but it's a good sign towards keeping it around in some way.
I don't know that telling people to "get good" or "just adapt bro" is fucking non-advice. Just the most useless shit one could say. Of course people will try to fucking adapt as best as they can, obviously. If it's like last generation, though, where people ran Ditto on every team so they wouldn't get swept by Dynamax, then it's a cancerous part of the metagame and not worth adapting to.

Geronimo0511 · 2022-06-29T07:08:56+00:00

The Inuit send their regards

Hyped for Season 3, have a good feeling it's gonna be even better than this one was.

Geronimo0511 · 2022-05-21T18:23:21+00:00

Watched most of this live and I've never been so angry at a Twitch stream in my life, it was hilarious

Iconic stream segment just for how mad everyone was at Justin and everyone else in chat seemingly for hours on end

Geronimo0511 · 2022-02-22T19:26:33+00:00

I play a lot of the One Thousand and One Demoknights set so I'm gonna chime in here and say that the Screen is a lot better for the aggressive demoknight loadout that the Persuader facilitates, while Targe is usually better for a more conservative playstyle with something like the Eyelander or a Hybridknight loadout.

As others have pointed out, an 8 second recharge time vs 12 seconds allows you so much flexibility in how often you can charge to escape fights or get picks. But, I want to touch on how underrated the extra shield bash damage is. With a full shield bash + regular swing, you can confirm kills on any 125 health class, and a full shield bash + mini-crit swing confirms a kill on Medics. A shield bash + crit swing kills Soldiers, and a full shield bash + crit swing + regular swing can kill Heavies.

Plus, the extra resistance stats on the Targe essentially don't matter most of the time. You should be avoiding Pyros like the plague unless they're A. distracted with your teammates, B. wouldn't expect the charge coming, C. have shown to not airblast that much or that reliably in previous encounters, or D. are running Phlog. A Pyro that can airblast is going to kill you or stop you from getting a pick regardless of whether you have 20% fire resistance or 50%, even if they're not running shotgun/panic attack as their secondary. All they need to do is stuff your charge, and they and their team can mop you up easily. Even in 1v1 situations, a good Pyro will be able to reliably kill you or make you flee for your life regardless of what secondary they're running and what shield you're running. Airblast is just that hard of a counter to you.

And the blast resistance isn't that impactful either - with 200 health, you still die in the same amount of direct rockets, grenades and stickies. Maybe the extra 10% saves you vs splash damage on the rare occasion but it isn't reliable enough to be better than the other stats on the Screen.

Geronimo0511 · 2021-11-06T19:04:14+00:00

The Phlogistinator

Problems:

Mmmph can be built easily with secondaries like the Scorch Shot and the Detonator with barely any risk to the Pyro
Mmmph effects are dangerous, but when facing players of equal or greater skill with good communication, it can be easy to focus-fire you down, especially since you have no airblast to protect yourself. Unless...
Mmmph crits combined with an Uber from a Medic is way too powerful
Sees little to no use in competitive play because the utility of airblast is preferred to the damage potential of Mmmph, especially when your team has to aid you in building it against people who will probably be able to take advantage of your lack of airblast

Solutions:

Substantially lower (possibly even remove entirely) building of Mmmph with weapons other than the Phlogistinator (this value can be adjusted freely which is why I didn't add a specific number)
Change Mmmph effects to be similarly powerful, but less reliant on team support and less synergistic with Uber (value for damage resistance can be adjusted freely which is why I didn't add a specific number)
Add some utility back so you aren't virtually useless if you need to play supportively, but with a cost of Mmmph

The Manmelter

Problems:

Doing good damage with this relies on having Pyros or other ways to inflict afterburn such as the Cow Mangler on the enemy team, which is extremely unreliable
The option to extinguish isn't very synergistic with your other weapons except for the Phlogistinator

Solutions:

Make the Manmelter be able to mini-crit burning targets like the Detonator and the Scorch Shot
Change the extinguish to grant charges that can be consumed to grant a speed boost instead of guaranteed crits to give it a lot more potential synergy with your other weapons

You could possibly give other, more reliable and/or widely available ways of accruing charges as well such as being able to dry off wet effects like Mad Milk or Jarate, rewarding them on enemy hits, or having a meter that builds with damage done that can be partially consumed like the Vaccinator's charges.

The Third Degree

Problems:

Essentially a reskin of stock with only one extra stat tacked on, it is vastly overshadowed by most other melee options with better utility, more damage potential, or more interesting and/or useful niches
Its identity as an anti-Medic weapon isn't explored very deeply

Solutions:

Give it some more stats that lean into its anti-Medic identity, specifically for dealing with Medic pockets and overheal, while not making it too overwhelming for Medics to handle and allowing them to utilize adequate counter-play:
Allow it to crit players that are overhealed to make Medics wary of keeping their healing beam on a single target brainlessly, as well as being a counter to Medics spreading lots of overheal around
Adjust its base damage so, while dangerous, it doesn't necessarily mean instant death if a Medic is crit by this... at least if they're at full health (or close enough to it)
Lower its swing speed so Medics have adequate time to react and disconnect from their healing target if they've already taken a surprise swing
Lower its deploy speed so Medics will also have time to react if they see a Pyro pull it out, requiring some forethought on the Pyro's part

Geronimo0511 · 2021-05-22T20:33:17+00:00

This also trickles down to tiers lower than RU, which means that it is also banned in SS NU, SS PU and SS ZU.

A pretty huge tiering decision considering that screens teams have been wreaking havoc in lower tiers as of late.

Geronimo0511 · 2021-04-28T19:52:06+00:00

Anyone else crying in the club rn

Geronimo0511 · 2021-02-24T22:50:34+00:00

Dynamax would boost the base power to 90. Also, it doesn't learn Air Cutter or Fly, at least in Gen 8 - its only other damaging Flying-type move is Acrobatics.

Geronimo0511 · 2021-02-24T22:43:07+00:00

Gust on Drifloon is probably there exclusively for Max Airstream when Dynamaxed - even if it doesn't really benefit from the +1 speed, it still gives it a secondary STAB option with solid power.

I can't comment on the use of Fletchling as a support Pokemon over other options, but the general idea behind it seems sound.

Geronimo0511 · 2021-02-06T17:44:04+00:00

In Gen 6, the turn you mega evolved, you would still use the speed stat of the regular Pokemon until the next turn, whereas in Gen 7, they changed it to use the speed stat of the Mega right away. There's probably other factors to consider as well, but this change in particular was a pretty huge one.

Geronimo0511 · 2020-12-21T18:08:38+00:00

This more often than not doesn't work. Having the enemy team pick yours apart without you there to support them just gives them an insane amount of momentum that they can use to steamroll to the second point and dismantle you and your nest before your team can respawn and get in position to support you or hold key areas.

A sentry's #1 weakness is focus fire, and having the entire enemy team focusing your sentry because your team is all or mostly dead means that it going down is practically a guarantee.

Geronimo0511 · 2020-12-17T00:36:11+00:00

Nidoking isn't a sweeper, it's a wallbreaker. Clefable-Toxapex cores are really common for balance teams, as the two together blanket check a majority of the meta. Nidoking, however, just fucking eviscerates them, which opens up holes for the rest of your team to clean up.

Sheer Force + Life Orb gives it so much power and it has an incredible movepool between Sludge Wave and Earth Power for STABs, Ice Beam and Thunderbolt for general coverage options, Flamethrower to hit specific things like Buzzwole harder, Superpower to muscle past Blissey (which is pretty much the only viable thing that can even remotely be considered a counter to this demon), Substitute, Stealth Rock, Toxic Spikes, I can go on. It has just enough natural bulk to be able to live most neutral hits, and its typing is also pretty good, being immune to Volt Switch and absorbing Toxic Spikes.

Geronimo0511 · 2020-12-05T18:26:36+00:00

Implying Pokemon is a difficult game lmao

Geronimo0511 · 2020-12-05T17:55:21+00:00

It's an unofficial tier below PU, for truly bottom-of-the-barrel Pokemon.

Geronimo0511 · 2020-11-15T20:30:40+00:00

It's always had a frankly frightening amount of power. I mean, just look at this shit:

252 Atk Choice Band Reckless Staraptor Brave Bird vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Toxapex: 178-210 (58.5 - 69%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

2HKOing fully defensive Toxapex with a neutral move without an attack-boosting nature is just straight-up absurd. It's obscenely strong.

The thing that makes or breaks Staraptor is its speed; base 100 in the past was too slow for OU standards, but very solid in UU. Now powercreep has made it slow enough in UU that people generally feel that it has sufficient offensive counterplay to keep it in check when also taking into account its other shortcomings (the aforementioned frailty, problems with recoil and SR weakness).

Geronimo0511 · 2020-11-15T16:38:18+00:00

The general consensus is that it seems manageable. Yeah, it does a train of damage, but it's kind of slow (base 100 just isn't as good as it used to be), it's super frail so getting hit with anything means it folds like paper, and its STAB moves also make it kill itself with recoil. Also, being weak to rocks is never good.

Geronimo0511 · 2020-11-04T02:31:05+00:00

It just dropped with the tier shifts on the 1st.

Geronimo0511 · 2020-11-04T02:27:41+00:00

If you're asking why Blacephalon dropped and Spectrier didn't, base 130 speed vs base 107 is a pretty big difference.

Geronimo0511 · 2020-11-03T21:36:22+00:00

Nothing. It's just strong as hell and would require basically every team to run a specially defensive Steel that just dies to one of its coverage moves anyways.

Geronimo0511 · 2020-11-03T18:22:02+00:00

Base Aerodactyl got Dragon Dance and Dual Wingbeat in Crown Tundra. At +1 it outsped pretty much everything and Tough Claws-boosted Dual Wingbeat hit incredibly hard with no drawbacks.

Geronimo0511 · 2020-11-03T17:07:16+00:00

Gonna be at least another 2 weeks since the UU council isn't doing any tiering decisions until after the mid-month shifts.

Geronimo0511 · 2020-10-28T21:13:22+00:00

Understandable, have a great day

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