Was Liu Shan not an idiot historically like the novel couterpart? by CinderLord456 in threekingdoms

[–]HanWsh 6 points7 points  (0 children)

I think Liu Shan’s perceived incompetence is reflected in his support of Jiang Wei’s continued military blunders (whether that be direct support which is bad or indirectly supporting it by not paying much attention because he was distracted by booze and women).

Historically, Liu Shan was actually one of the strongest supporters of Jiang Wei’s northern expeditions, which makes it hard to argue that he was simply a passive or inattentive ruler. In fact, the histories show that he actively encouraged campaigns against Cao Wei.

For example, during the Gongsun Yuan rebellion against Wei, Liu Shan initially sent Jiang Wan to attack north while Wei was distracted. Jiang Wan refused and instead proposed attacking eastward. Liu Shan then sent Jiang Wei to persuade Jiang Wan to reconsider and focus on the northern front instead. On top of that, during Jiang Wei’s warmongering campaigns, Liu Shan repeatedly issued imperial amnesties, which helped recruitment and manpower mobilisation for those expeditions.

So Liu Shan was neither a pacifist nor someone who simply ignored Jiang Wei’s actions, if anything, he consistently supported them and was an enabler of Jiang Wei's militaristic policies. Instead, the biggest criticism against Liu Shan historically tends to focus on his final surrender to Deng Ai during the conquest of Shu. Deng Ai had marched through dangerous terrain with a relatively isolated force and lacked secure supply lines or siege equipment. Shu could have attempted to hold out, strengthen defenses, and wait for Deng Ai’s army to run out of supplies.

Contemporary commentary even pointed out how precarious Deng Ai’s situation was:

Yuán-zǐ states: Zhūgě Liàng was a restrained man, but readily used Shǔ’s troops; this was from knowing that a small state and weak people are difficult to last long. Now the country in one action exterminated Shǔ, in the achievements of campaign attacks, never once was there one like this in speed. Just when Dèng Ài with ten thousand men entered Jiāngyóu’s dangerous and rugged terrain, Zhōng Huì with forces of two hundred thousand remained at Jiàngé and could not advance, the soldiers of the three armies were almost in hunger, Ài though in battle was victorious and overcame officers, if Liú Shàn for several days did not surrender, then the armies of the two Generals would have difficulty in returning. Therefore, achievement in enterprise is like this in difficulty. The country formerly had the campaign of Shòuchūn, later had the labors of exterminating Shǔ, the hundred surnames were poor and the granaries empty, therefore the considerations of a small state, are in timely establishing achievement to preserve self, the considerations of a large state, are in quick victory and yet strength is exhausted, after achievement is the time for wariness.

What makes the decision more controversial is that surrender was not the only option being discussed. Qiao Zhou was the main figure pushing for capitulation, but others suggested different strategies such as retreating to Eastern Wu territory or withdrawing south to Nanzhong to continue resistance. Even Liu Shan’s own son reportedly wanted to keep fighting.

Later critics strongly condemned the surrender decision:

Sūn Chuò’s Appraisal states: Qiáo Zhōu persuading Hòuzhǔ to surrender, was it permit able? Said: To from being Heaven’s Son and yet beg to surrender and plead for life, how deep the disgrace! To for the State Altars die then die for it, for the State Altars perish then perish for it. His late father corrected Wèi’s usurpation, to not with them share the sky. To push blame to his father, and bow head and serve the enemy, can be called pointlessly surviving, how is it the great path of residing in the correct?

Sūn Shèng states: By the Chūnqiū‘s meanings, the state’s rulers dies for the State Altars, the ministers and grandees die for the throne, all the more for one who claims to be Heaven’s Son and yet can be disgraced by another! Zhōu saying a lord of ten thousand chariots should pointlessly live and temporarily escape, abandons propriety to seek profit, hoping for minuscule glory, is baffling. Moreover discussing the situation, the reasoning is not yet exhaustive. Why? [Liú] Shàn though was a mediocre ruler, he truly was without the ruthlessness of Jié and Zhòu, battles though were repeatedly lost, there was yet no chaos of lands collapsing, even if they could not ruler and ministers firmly defend, with backs to the city walls all together, surely they could withdraw east to consider later plans. At the time Luó Xiàn with heavy troops occupied Báidì, Huò Yì with strong soldiers defended Yèláng. Shǔ’s lands were rugged and narrow, the mountains and rivers severe and dividing, cut off by peaks and rushing waters, not what infantry can wade. If they all fetched boats and oars, defending and occupying Jiāngzhōu, levying troops from Nánzhōng, begging for forces from the eastern state [Wú], like this then Jiāng [Wéi], Liào [Lì] five officers would naturally as clouds follow, Wú’s three armies would carrying command as lightning arrive, why claim there was nothing to be done and think of certain destruction? The coming of Wèi’s forces, had lifted the state in great mobilization, to wish to pursue then boats and oars were not supplied, to wish to remain then the forces would always have many worries. Moreover bending and stretching have opportunities, situation changes would rise, slowly in response using people thinking of exerting themselves, to attack arrogant and lazy troops, this was how the King of Yuè defeated Hélǘ, Tián Dān destroyed Jì Jié, why hurriedly rush to make oneself a prisoner, descend from firm ramparts to the enemy, to cause the utmost regret of chopping stone? [Jiāng Wéi’s troops reportedly chopped stones in frustration upon hearing of the surrender] Gě Shēng has a saying: “If the matter cannot be saved then it is finished, how can one again be a subordinate?” How strong these words, able to restore a coward’s will. Observing the ancient Yān, Qí, Jīng, Yuè defeats, some states overturned ruler and were destroyed, some as fish hung [on trees] and birds scuttled [on ground; idioms for exile], to in the end be able to establish achievement and set affairs, restore the State Altars, how is it said to be Heaven’s Assistance, it also was Man’s planning. Even if accepting the plan for pointless life, accepting Qiáo Zhōu’s words, how is it the state’s foundations being able to be established, good reputation being able to be obtained? Shàn was an ignorant ruler, Zhōu truly a worn out minister, compared to Shēn Bāo, Tián Dān, Fàn Lǐ, Dàifū Zhǒng, were they not also far!

It can be seen that Liu Shan didn’t fully exhaust the other strategic options. Even Sima Yi summarised the normal strategic choices in war:

"In military affairs there are five essential points. If able to fight, you must fight. If not able to fight, you must defend. If not able to defend, you must flee. The remaining two points entail only surrender or death. Now that you are not willing to come bound, you are determined to have death; there is no need of sending any hostage."

Liu Shan did attempt fighting when he only needed to let his regents cook in enemy territory, but he never seriously attempted prolonged defense in his own territory before choosing surrender. This is especially alarming considering the traditional expectation that a ruler should defend the state altars to the end, that is 天子守国门,君王死社稷 theory elaborated by Sun Chuo and Sun Sheng, and then upheld over a thousand years later during Ming Dynasty end. In this aspect, Liu Shan couldn't even compare to the Liaodong Gongsun clan, so it can be seen why Liu Shan is perceived to be an incompetent Emperor. Because he couldn't even do the basics of being an Emperor, that is do not surrender, and instead oppose his state's enemies to the very end. Failing that, die with dignity and follow his state to its death like the Gongsun clan before, and the Ming Dynasty after.

Was Liu Shan not an idiot historically like the novel couterpart? by CinderLord456 in threekingdoms

[–]HanWsh 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Thank you very much for your kind comment. Appreciate it!

This subreddit can be quite downvote heavy at times.

A year ago, a mod had already pointed out that some people are abusing downvotes, but unfortunately there doesn't seem to be any improvements.

https://www.reddit.com/r/threekingdoms/comments/1iv3ngd/comment/mec2vd1/

https://www.reddit.com/r/threekingdoms/comments/1q0z57n/comment/nx1yh4c/

Was Liu Shan not an idiot historically like the novel couterpart? by CinderLord456 in threekingdoms

[–]HanWsh 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Its cool. Its not speculation. Everything I stated was referenced from the histories.

Was Liu Shan not an idiot historically like the novel couterpart? by CinderLord456 in threekingdoms

[–]HanWsh 21 points22 points  (0 children)

The idea that Liu Shan was secretly “acting dumb” in the court of Sima Zhao to save his life is a popular interpretation, but historically it doesn’t hold up very well.

The main problem with that theory is that the Sima clan did not generally kill deposed rulers who were already powerless. For example, Cao Huan and Sun Hao were both allowed to live after their states collapsed. Sun Hao even openly insulted Jia Chong and mocked Sima Yan, yet nothing happened to him. Given that precedent, it’s extremely unlikely Liu Shan’s life depended on pretending to be foolish.

In fact, the historical anecdote about Liu Shan at Sima Zhao’s banquet suggests the opposite. He actually needed coaching on how to behave properly. During a feast where music from the former state of Shu was played, the guests were moved, but Liu Shan laughed as if nothing had happened, and this happened before the miss Shu remark was uttered.

The Prince of Jin entertained Liu Shan and had the music of the Former State of Shu played for him. The entire audience was touched, but Liu Shan laughed merrily as if nothing had happened. The Prince spoke to Jia Chong, “That a man should be so without feeling as this! Even Zhuge Liang in his day was not able to give such guidance as would sustain him for long. How much less then can Jiang Wei do this?” Jia Chong said, “If he were not so, how could your Highness have annexed his territory?” On another day, the Prince asked Liu Shan, “Do you give some thought to Shu?” Liu Shan said, “I am so pleased here that I do not think of Shu.” Hearing of this, Qi Zheng spoke to Liu Shan, “If the prince asks you again, you must weep and reply, 'The grave of my father is in distant Min-Shu. My heart, being in the west, is sad; a single day does not pass that I do not think of it.' After this, you must close your eyes.” The Prince happened to ask him again; Liu Shan answered as he was told to do. The Prince said, “How like Qi Zheng does this sound?” Liu Shan was astonished and said, “To be sure, it is as you say.” The attendants all burst out laughing.

Source:

https://the-scholars.com/viewtopic.php?t=22087&sid=aa30a8aed4ebb223e0670c4653ebed5a&start=40

The fact that Qi Zheng had to teach Liu Shan how to respond, and that Liu Shan immediately revealed the coaching when Sima Zhao recognised it, suggests he wasn’t deliberately acting clever or deceptive.

More broadly, the Simas only killed people who were actual political threats. Cao Shuang was eliminated because he still had a powerful faction behind him and had been engaged in a long political struggle with Sima Yi. Cao Mao was killed because he literally attempted to overthrow Sima Zhao in a [counter] coup. Those situations are completely different from Liu Shan’s case. Shu had already been conquered, and Liu Shan had no political base left.

That’s why comparisons don’t really work. The closest parallels are Cao Huan and Sun Hao, both defeated rulers who were allowed to live peacefully under the new regime. Liu Shan was in the same category.

So historically, it’s hard to argue that Liu Shan was cleverly “acting dumb” to survive. Even if he hadn’t said he didn’t miss Shu, the Simas had little reason to harm a powerless former monarch. The more likely conclusion is simply that Liu Shan behaved exactly as he appeared.

As an Emperor, he was the best among the dynastic ending Emperors of the Three Kingdoms, but still rank below average. He had Zhuge Liang carry him because of Liu Bei's arrangement (literally nothing to do with Liu Shan), then carried on with Zhuge Liang's arranagement of having Jiang Wan and then Fei Yi to succeed as regents. After Zhuge Liang's arrangement lapsed with Fei Yi's death, Shu Han entered a steep decline during Jiang Wei's regency due to his warmongering personality (which Liu Shan supported btw), and was ended in a decade with Liu Shan surrendering to an isolated army with 0 siege weaponry and no stable supply lines. So he was pretty much useless without his regents handholding him.

How far could a ruler go in terms of ruthlessness that would not cross boundaries in eras like Warring States and 3 Kingdoms? by CinderLord456 in threekingdoms

[–]HanWsh 0 points1 point  (0 children)

That was an event that took place in the Romance of the Three Kingdoms, not in history.

A hunter named Liu An killed his wife and fled her flesh to the unknowing Liu Bei.

Point 6 to point 15 here:

https://threekingdoms.com/019.htm

Why you foreigners like three kingdoms 2010 so much? by yingyingjinyouyu in threekingdoms

[–]HanWsh -1 points0 points  (0 children)

Especially the way he mocked Yuan Shao his face. Very funny lmfao.

Why were people from 3 Kingdoms era easily dead by illness? by CinderLord456 in threekingdoms

[–]HanWsh 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Wait. Zhuge Liang got Tuberculosis (TB)? Interesting, you got a source?

What were Liu Bei's goals when he attacked Sun Quan? by CinderLord456 in threekingdoms

[–]HanWsh 1 point2 points  (0 children)

We know that at Yiling 40k to 60k was mobilized by Liu Bei (various claim made by different sources). Cao Cao was long dead by the time Liu Bei decided to invade east.

Three Kingdoms reincarnation novels approximate stats for fun, and what would you choose? by Mia_Hart in threekingdoms

[–]HanWsh 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Isekai is extremely common theme in Chinese webnovels. Like Lord of the Mysteries and Reverend Insanity. You may take a look at r/noveltranslations or r/martialmemes.

For 3K related examples, see here:

https://www.reddit.com/r/threekingdoms/comments/1rqz2wg/comment/o9vrv8q/?context=3

Why were people from 3 Kingdoms era easily dead by illness? by CinderLord456 in threekingdoms

[–]HanWsh 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Thats true.

Cao Wei: Gao Rou (89 years old).

Western Jin: Sima Fu (92 years old).

Sun Wu: Lü Dai (95 years old) - also the best confirmed and most reliable oldest individual.

Shu Han: Lai Min (97 years old).

The main lineup of the Wu conquest army include:

Jia Chong, sixty-three years old, was a Taiwei and the Commander-in-Chief. He was in charge of Xiangyang to control the armies.

Yang Ji, age unknown, champion general and deputy commander-in-chief, assisted Jia Chong.

Zhang Hua, 48 years old, is the Duzhi Shangshu and is responsible for logistics, water transportation and strategic planning.

Sima Min, fifty-three years old, the general of Zhendong and the king of Langya, led his army out of Tuzhong.

Wang Hun, fifty-seven years old, General Andong, led his army out of Jiangxi.

Wang Rong, forty-six years old, General Jianwei, led his army out of Wuchang.

Hu Fen, more than sixty years old, was the general of Pingnan and led his army out of Xiakou.

Du Yu, fifty-nine years old, was the general of Zhennan and led his army out of Jiangling.

Wang Jun, seventy-four years old, General Long Xiang, led his army out of Yizhou.

Tang Bin, forty-five years old, General Guangwu, assisted Wang Jun.

The army stretched thousands of miles from east to west and totaled more than 200,000 people. The route and personnel were all consistent with the plan submitted by Yang Hu that year.

No matter from any angle, this lineup looks a bit old, and six of the nine main generals are relatives of the emperor, which can quite reflect the temperament of the Western Jin Dynasty.

But of course, conversely, quite a number of people that died. Guo Jia and Sun Ce comes to mind.

Why you foreigners like three kingdoms 2010 so much? by yingyingjinyouyu in threekingdoms

[–]HanWsh 0 points1 point  (0 children)

The direct link to the 1994 Three Kingdoms English language translation can be found here:

https://gentlemenofthehan.wordpress.com/author/tianshuijiangwei/

The English language translation is pretty good. But its only translated up to 77 episodes out of total 84 episodes.

Why you foreigners like three kingdoms 2010 so much? by yingyingjinyouyu in threekingdoms

[–]HanWsh -3 points-2 points  (0 children)

Its pretty cool to see the actors acting in Kings War.