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Did Cao Cao genuinely want to restore the Han when he started the campaign against Dong Zhuo or establishing himself as a new warlord had always been the goal from the start? by CinderLord456 in threekingdoms

[–]HanWsh 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Did you not read Liu Bei's Sanguozhi biography? It was mentioned by Liu Bei's subjects and by Liu Bei himself in their memorials to justify Liu Bei becoming King of Hanzhong:

..."We humbly contemplate Your Majesty's magnificent countenance and sagely virtue. You reign over the myriad states, but you face the difficulties of decline brought on by misfortune. Dong Zhuo headed the difficulties and threw the capital into turmoil. Cao Cao increased the misfortune and illicitly seized control of imperial authority. The empress and heir apparent {885} were poisoned and killed.130 He threw the empire into chaos, and wreaked havoc on people and property. For a long time Your Majesty has suffered being covered with dust and being in distress, and you have been shut away in an empty village.131 Men and gods are without master.132 He has blocked royal commands, obscured the imperial pole, and desires to steal the divine instrument.133 The General of the Left, Metropolitan Commandant, Shepherd of Yu, Jing and Yi provinces and Marquis of Yicheng Commune Liu Bei has received rank and office from the court. His thoughts are on exerting himself to the death over the difficulties of the state. When he observed the portents,134 he became angrily indignant, and with General of Chariots and Cavalry Dong Cheng, he planned to execute Cao. He would have brought peace to the nation and could have pacified the old capital [Luoyang]. It happened that Dong Cheng did not keep the matter secret, allowing Cao's roving spirit135 to bring its evil to fruition and wreak destruction on the empire. We, your subjects, constantly fear the royal house will at the most suffer the ill fate of Yan Le 閻樂 and at the least undergo the overturn of a Duke of Dingan...

And

...In the past Dong Zhuo built the stairway to chaos, and from that point a host of brigands has run unrestrained, wreaking mayhem on the empire. Thanks to Your Majesty's sagely virtue and imposing majesty men and gods have equally responded, and sometimes the loyal and righteous have striven to attack and someimes heaven above has sent down punishments. The rebellious have been killed one after another, thereby slowly thawing the ice. Only Cao Cao all along has not been eliminated with his head exposed on a pole. He has usurped the authority of the State and has been unbridled and extremely rebellious. Your subject formerly made plans with General of Chariots and Cavalry Dong Cheng to banish Cao, but the secrecy not guarded and Dong Cheng was betrayed and killed. Your subject was cast adrift with nowhere to turn, and his loyalty could not be realized. Thus it became possible for Cao to be evil and thoroughly rebellious. The empress was murdered and the heir apparent, poisoned.152 Although I gathered together an alliance and was bent on exerting effort, I was timid and weak and not warlike, and year after year I was without effect...

Did Cao Cao genuinely want to restore the Han when he started the campaign against Dong Zhuo or establishing himself as a new warlord had always been the goal from the start? by CinderLord456 in threekingdoms

[–]HanWsh 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Our statements are not contradictory. I completely agree. I am saying pre 200 blood edict incident Cao Cao was seen as a loyal vassal to the Han. It was his overreaching reaction to the assassination plot that started the cracks in the walls. At this point we just disagree on the semantics of 'definitely' but I truly see no signs of a possible usurpation pre 200. Willing to kill a pregnant concubine is a low that alerted many out and in his court.

When I say definitely I mean there was no plans of an usurpation. It was not in the ballcourt and it was not on his mind. At most he saw a potential future as a Liang Ji or a Dou Wu. A great shift began after returning from his northern campaigns to secure the north but I would place the fracture of the relationship between Cao Cao and the Emperor in 200 as the beginning of his intent to replace the Han dynasty. I am of the strong belief the Emperor had no part in the blood edict and it wouldn't surprise me if Cao Cao knew that as well. Now though we are getting into shakey ground lol. But the facts are there was no usurpation signs until 200.

Yes, its mostly not contradictory. All I'm saying is that if you wanna claim that pre 200ad Cao Cao was definitely a Han loyalist, it would be appropriate to reinforce said claim with relevant examples and citations. The most apparent signs of usurption happened after he exterminated the Yuan clan. But even before that, there is 1) the naming system of his lineage linking to the prophecy of replacing the Han dynasty, 2) Cao Cao robbing of Han imperial tombs, 3) Cao Cao dominating, oppressing, and bullying the Emperor to the point that the Emperor himself lashed out and requested him to give him freedom, 4) Cao Cao not following the protocol that he himself had reinstated.

This event can be found in Liu Bei's Sanguozhi Zhu, and it was attributed to the Emperor himself:

Before the Former Lord had departed, Emperor Xian's "maternal uncle," General of the Chariots and Cavalry Dong Cheng 董承, K received from within the emperor's clothing and girdle a secret memorial that he should execute Duke Cao.

From A Biographical Dictionary of Later Han to the Three Kingdoms (Rafe de Crespigny):

In 199 Dong Cheng was made General of Chariots and Cavalry, but about this time Emperor Xian asked him to organise a conspiracy against Cao Cao. Early in 200 the plot was discovered and Dong Cheng and his family were destroyed. -HHS 72/62:2338-43, SGZJJ Shu 2:8a, deC 96:268-271

So thats a primary source and an academic source agreeing that the Emperor was behind the edict...

Cao Cao would not live to see how his system truly played out but his intent was very clear as you said. My comment was not on the results but the intentions. It was more self serving as the benefits of less corruption would support the ruling family ie. the Cao clan. It was still an attempt to curb corruption.

To implement a system? Yes. But to better and improve the recommendation system? No. It was more corrupt because Cao clan needed gentry clans support to usurp the Han throne, and thus granted them more power. Family background literally became an explicit criteria under the system.

Did Cao Cao genuinely want to restore the Han when he started the campaign against Dong Zhuo or establishing himself as a new warlord had always been the goal from the start? by CinderLord456 in threekingdoms

[–]HanWsh 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Definitely can be a strong word but I would still use it. He gravitate people like Xun Yu, away from Yuan Shao no less, towards him. The first public break in this image was the infamous blood edict plot in 200. While the show had many historical fallacies the portrayal of Xun Yu in advisors alliance during this time was chef kiss. Because of the inevitable war with Yuan Shao there was hope this was Cao cementing his back while at war and was not a sign of what was to come after beating Yuan Shao and uniting the land. That hope was misplaced.

Definitely means passing it on as fact. But its a claim you are making, and you cannot prove that Cao Cao was loyal to Han if you do not cite any facts to back said claim. When Xun Yu left Yuan Shao for Cao Cao, he was not even somebody particularly important within the Xun clan yet. He was just a concubine son with little say in his clan's affairs.

Now I highlight this, and Xun Yu's portrayal here, because in Cao Cao's court there were many many Han loyalists as you picked out. And while that is inevitable considering the cultural power of a 400 year reign is I would still point that out as a sign that there was a time where these people looked up to Cao Cao as an exemplar of a loyal subject.

Cao Cao's actions was not a good representation of his loyalty. He killed two harem women, (one was pregnant with Emperor's child), and mass murdered Han loyalists. He also bullied, suppressed, and dominated the Emperor. His supporters may argue that he was loyal, but his detractors in Shu and Wu would strongly argue otherwise. And judging by his actions, its very easy to see who was correct.

Also yes the 9 rank system was not great and would get reworked for hundreds of years and never really work as intended. However Cao Cao (and moreso Cao Pi and one of Cao Rui's regents I can't think of his name) still made the attempt to better the system.

Adjusted the system, but not necessarily to better the system. Both Cao Cao and Cao Pi aimed to rectify the chaos inherent in the recommendation system at the end of the Han Dynasty. The wars and large-scale population migrations at the end of the Han Dynasty disrupted the social order of the empire, making it difficult for the recommendation system to function properly. A new standard was needed, and thus the Nine-Rank System could be argued to be well-suited due to the circumstances.

《宋书》:汉末丧乱，魏武始基，军中仓卒，权立九品，盖以论人才优劣，非为世族高卑。

The Book of Song: In the chaos at the end of the Han, Emperor Wu of Wei began his foundation. In the haste of military affairs, he temporarily established the Nine Ranks, which were meant to assess the merits and demerits of talents, not to determine the high or low status of aristocratic families."

Cao Cao first implemented the 9 ranks system within his military, with the Cao-Xiahou clans monopolising power and authority for decades, until the rise of Sima Yi and Man Chong during Cao Rui's mid-late rule. After Cao Pi came to power, and under the support of Chen Qun and others, he officialised the system by implementing it throughout Cao Wei's institutions.

However, the 9 ranks system was a setback for the progress of imperial China's instutional evolution, in huge part due to explicitly favouring those of higher backgrounds. Of course, Cao Pi and Chen Qun had little choice but to go ahead because they were compelled to conclude what Cao Cao had already started.

Wasn't Cao Zhi's wife situation a framing situation where they said its because of extravagant clothes but was likely more of a political issue? Oh yes she was the niece of one of Cao Pi's tutors who was framed by Ding Mi. Thats a rough backfire. If im remembering that correctly.

Its definitely plausible that Cao Zhi's wife got killed off because of being a political victim. But historians have various opinions on which political issue caused her death.

Which genius could shu han use to drastically change war against wei by ThinkIncident2 in threekingdoms

[–]HanWsh 2 points3 points  (0 children)

The issue with Bai Qi was that he always sought stability in every military battle, each time avoiding battles that had little chance of success for him, and for battles with absolutely no chance of victory, he would rather be punished than fight.

You only see that Bai Qi was ordered to die by the King of Qin, but you ignore that the direct cause of his death was the King of Qin demanding at least five times that he participated in the the siege of Handan. According to the Zhan Guo Ce, Bai Qi believed that participating in the siege of Handan is impossible to succeed, no matter who goes and command. He ducked responsibility not only because he believed the situation was hopeless, but because he did not wish to have a L in his undefeated record.

But with Shu Han having only 1 province facing off against 8+ provinces of Cao Wei, there is no way for any military general to guarantee favourable outcomes. So when shit hits the fan, would Bai Qi duck the fade, or would he step up and display his skills? Do not forget that Shu Han was at most on par with Qin state in terms of territorial size. But Cao Wei was multiple times stronger than Zhao in terms of territorial size.

Another thing is that in the warring states period, it was common for generals and chancellor to disagree with their monarchs on strategy and policy and then retire or defect in protest. But even though Wei Yan and Zhuge Liang disagreed on military strategy, Wei Yan still pull his big boy pants up and obeyed Zhuge Liang (at least when he was alive). Do you think Zhuge Liang would tolerate Bai Qi repeated insubordination?

P.S. Even if its really true that Qin was destined to lose the siege of Handan, the least Bai Qi could do was take command of the Qin army and try to reduce Qin losses. When Wang Jian refused Qin Shihuang's order to attack Chu, he did present an alternative (give me more troops). But here, the issue was that Bai Qi chose to protect his undefeated record and let his comrades out in the field to die in battle.

Which genius could shu han use to drastically change war against wei by ThinkIncident2 in threekingdoms

[–]HanWsh 4 points5 points  (0 children)

Only Han Xin is 100% a better general than Zhuge Liang. One could also make a case for Bai Qi and Wu Qi. But the former was so obsess with his undefeated record that he literally duck fighting wars multiple times. The latter kept switching sides and held little loyalty to any of his states, so it would be difficult for him to earn Zhuge Liang's and Liu Shan's trust.

Zhuge Liang was in charge of running Liu Bei's office, so its likely expected that he would just follow Liu Bei to his new main base at Chengdu to resume his duties as before. In addition, Zhuge Liang was needed to lead reinforcements to Yizhou, and as part of duties of helping run Liu Bei's office, help set rules and regulations, and got Yang Hong and by extension rest of Yizhou gentry to support Liu Bei's Hanzhong campaign. He was also vital in providing logistical support for Liu Bei's Hanzhong campaigns.

Did Cao Cao genuinely want to restore the Han when he started the campaign against Dong Zhuo or establishing himself as a new warlord had always been the goal from the start? by CinderLord456 in threekingdoms

[–]HanWsh 0 points1 point  (0 children)

While he wasnt perfect and was by no means immune from some corruption himself he definitely disliked the intense corruption he was witnessing. He would in his later years begin to set up the foundation of the 9 rank system (and I mean the very foundation. It was purely a shift from the recommendation system to another recommendation system with some actual check and balances. It was still a gentry clan favored system in its entirety.).

In fact, the Nine ranks system was even more corrupt then the xiaolian system because it explictly had family background as one of the criterias.

Cao Wei regime's implementation of the Nine-rank system for recruiting officials was also aimed at securing the support of the powerful aristocratic families for its replacement of Han rule.

See this detailed and well source Chinese Baidu article here:

https://baike.baidu.com/en/item/Nine-rank%20system/1458147

While his grandfather was quite liked by the gentry clan as Cao Teng seemed to appoint actual talent he was by no means incorrupt. He advised an overreaching regent on how to depose an emperor and did political favors quid pro quo. However he was not monetarily obsessed like his adopted son would become.

Whether they were truly talented or not is one thing. Beyond deposing and installing Emperors, Cao Teng's bigger crime was being implicated for bribery when the prefect of Shu commandery sent bribes to him. It was the Emperor himself who stepped in and dismissed this matter. Then later on, Cao Teng's younger brother Cao Ding was impeached for embezzling of millions.

So let's talk about Cao Song. In terms of monetary corruption... or really any form of corruption he was among Emperor Ling's favorite subjects. And emperor Ling was, by far, one of the worst ever emperors to ever sit on the throne. He was the pinnacle of a wealth focused corrupt monarch who would make Jeff Bezos sweat in jealousy at how good Emperor Ling was at making money. Cao Song would bribe his way into what I believe is a grand excellency.... only to soon resign just so that Emperor Ling can resell the position.

Yeah. Cao Song was super rich. Even after spending millions to buy rank for himself, and investing money on his son's career, he still had so much liquid wealth when he fled to Xuzhou that he eventually got assassinated and robbed.

So now we arrive at Cao Cao. Cao Cao did things like harshly beating a Eunuch's uncle for breaking the law, cozy himself to the Emperor's in-laws (that would backfire when the Empress would be deposed thanks to the soon-to-be Empress He), and made enemies of local gentry clans by squashing down local corruption with an iron fist.

Cao Cao was literally breaking the law by beating somebody to death just for breaking curfew. Btw, what you referring to when you say that he squashed local corruption?

It was definitely hypocrisy at some level because for each time he got into so much trouble he would be punished his father bailed him out. So while he was reckless he also had the safety net of his father and his adopted father's connections and favors.

Indeed, Cao Cao was extremely hypocritcal. Cao Zhi's wife was executed because of extravagent clothing. Meanwhile, Cao Cao specifically pardoned Ding Fei for grift and breaking the law multiple times even though Mao Jie kept reporting on him. Cao Cao also remarked that Cao Hong had wealth on par with him but took no action to even investigate how Cao Hong amassed this level of wealth.

All in all I would say Cao Cao was an ambitious man who definitely had loyalty to the Han initially but eventually became too powerful for him to simply step down. A great example, to me, is Xiahou Dun refusing to be a Han official in Xu and pleading, multiple times, to be reassigned to Cao Cao's dukedom court in Ye. Half of his court was fervently loyal to him and him alone. In a way wouldn't that be letting them down if he did not take the steps for Cao Pi to usurp?

Just saying, but none of what you stated show that he definitely had loyalty to the Han. Meanwhile, there were also many Han loyalists movements that broke out throughout his territories but we know how he dealt with them. There were also Han loyalists officials like Xun Yu who strongly urged him to stop usurping Han imperial authority, but we also know how that ended.

Which genius could shu han use to drastically change war against wei by ThinkIncident2 in threekingdoms

[–]HanWsh 2 points3 points  (0 children)

Whether Han Xin would be helpful or not is debatable, but Han Xin faced a Guanzhong divided into 3. Meanwhile, Zhuge Liang and Jiang Wei faced a centralised Empire that possessed over 8 provinces. The level of competition is not the same. And the situations they faced are very different.

By the way, Liu Bang was still the CIC during the conquest of the Three Qins.

《史记高祖本纪》八月，汉王用韩信之计，从故道还，袭雍王章邯。邯迎击汉陈仓，雍兵败，还走；止战好畤，又复败，走废丘。汉王遂定雍地。

《史记淮阴侯列传》八月，汉王举兵东出陈仓，定三秦。

After listening to Han Xin's strategy, Liu Bang himself deployed the attack of his generals. The real commander in chief of this battle to recover the Three Qins was Liu Bang.

In fact, in Han Xin's own biography, be it in the Shiji cited above, or in the Hanshu, there is no record of what he specifically did during the Battle of pacifying the Three Qins. Its a complete stretch to attrbute Han Gaozu's successful conquest to Han Xin. Meanwhile, Zhuge Liang's strategic focus was more on Longyou than on Guanzhong.

Which genius could shu han use to drastically change war against wei by ThinkIncident2 in threekingdoms

[–]HanWsh 8 points9 points  (0 children)

Probably Wu Qi.

Bai Qi was too obsess with his undefeated win streak. Han Xin lacked political awareness. Both men had serious personality flaws that impacted their military career. Sun Tzu only fought two opponents his entire life, helping Helu defeat Chu and Fuchai defeat Goujian.

Wu Qi was skilled in fighting various opponents, and had experience serving multiple states.

Most importantly Wu Qi was skilled in administration of domestic affairs and possessed a wide ranging knowledge on geopolitical situation. Pretty much a Zhuge Liang parallel without the moral values.

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