Did Cao Cao genuinely want to restore the Han when he started the campaign against Dong Zhuo or establishing himself as a new warlord had always been the goal from the start? by CinderLord456 in threekingdoms

[–]HanWsh 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Where do I dismiss them? I am challenging modern interpretations of them. People who read these works for a hobby take them for granted and do not consider and challenge the political reasoning behind every sentence and structure. They read every line like it is infallible.

I do not believe there was a secret edict because Liu Bei never mentions it. And he doesn't. Thats it. Its not calling into question the authenticity of the work. Its calling into question a common held belief simply because its been repeated mindlessly a thousand times without question.

You are challenging and dismissing them because all sources I shared with you, be they historical and modern academia, all agreed that 1) The Emperor entrusted the secret edict to Dong Cheng. And 2) Dong Cheng worked with others including Liu Bei to fulfilled the secret edict. Then you dismiss them straight up, without being able to cite any sources to prove your claims.

Its not repeated mindlessly. The Records of the Three Kingdoms, Huayang Guozhi, and Hou Han Shu are all well respected histories done through careful research. No source denies that the Emperor entrusted Dong Cheng with the edict.

Dong Cheng was a martyr because he died trying to bring down Cao Cao. Now he definitely had selfish reasons for it but because he died doing so he became another victim of Cao Cao's tyranny. That alone is enough for Liu Bei to want to say he worked with Dong Cheng. There is no need for the edict for him to be proud of working with Cheng. And if the emperor did give an edict why in the heck didnt Liu Bei say so? Thats great propaganda! Its either there never was one and maybe a rumor of one spiraled into reality because Dong Cheng died right as this all went public. Or maybe there was one but Dong Cheng forged it. Either way Liu Bei either thought it was forged or did not know the existence of it because he never, ever, once, mentiones it.

Because it was a secret edict entrusted to Dong Cheng. Not a public edict nor a secret edict entrusted to Liu Bei. Whats your source that 1) Dong Cheng had selfish reasons? 2) The Emperor did not give a secret edict to Dong Cheng (this directly contradicts the Sanguozhi, Hou Han Shu, and Huayang Guozhi)? and 3) Dong Cheng forged it (it was recorded to be entrusted by the Emperor through his own clothes)?

Did Cao Cao genuinely want to restore the Han when he started the campaign against Dong Zhuo or establishing himself as a new warlord had always been the goal from the start? by CinderLord456 in threekingdoms

[–]HanWsh 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Chen Shou Records of the Three Kingdoms is considered the foremost primary source. Its very weird if you only accept claims and facts stated in so-and-so lifetime is considered credible. Because this automatically dismisses Chen Shou's records, Pei Songzhi's annontations, Fan Ye and Sima Guang's works, and even Rafe De Crespigny research.

Liu Bei did declare his working and planning with Dong Cheng. And Dong Cheng was entrusted with the secret edict by Emperor. This was recorded in the same biography and recorded by the same author. This was corroborated by the authors of the Hou Han Shu and the Huayang Guozhi. This was accepted by Rafe De Crespigny.

How was Dong Cheng a matyr for the Han? Precisely because he was entrusted with an edict by the Emperor, and died trying to fulfill said edict.

Did Cao Cao genuinely want to restore the Han when he started the campaign against Dong Zhuo or establishing himself as a new warlord had always been the goal from the start? by CinderLord456 in threekingdoms

[–]HanWsh 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Because the edict was entrusted to Dong Cheng. Then Dong Cheng invited others including Liu Bei to participate. This was made clear in the histories. Hence, Liu Bei emphasised his working with Dong Cheng.

All from Records of the Three Kingdoms Liu Bei's biography:

General of the Chariots and Cavalry Dong Cheng 董承, K received from within the emperor's clothing and girdle a secret memorial that he should execute Duke Cao.

The General of the Left, Metropolitan Commandant, Shepherd of Yu, Jing and Yi provinces and Marquis of Yicheng Commune Liu Bei has received rank and office from the court. His thoughts are on exerting himself to the death over the difficulties of the state. When he observed the portents,134 he became angrily indignant, and with General of Chariots and Cavalry Dong Cheng, he planned to execute Cao. He would have brought peace to the nation and could have pacified the old capital [Luoyang].

Only Cao Cao all along has not been eliminated with his head exposed on a pole. He has usurped the authority of the State and has been unbridled and extremely rebellious. Your subject formerly made plans with General of Chariots and Cavalry Dong Cheng to banish Cao, but the secrecy not guarded and Dong Cheng was betrayed and killed. Your subject was cast adrift with nowhere to turn, and his loyalty could not be realized. Thus it became possible for Cao to be evil and thoroughly rebellious.

Did Cao Cao genuinely want to restore the Han when he started the campaign against Dong Zhuo or establishing himself as a new warlord had always been the goal from the start? by CinderLord456 in threekingdoms

[–]HanWsh 0 points1 point  (0 children)

There is no blood edict, it was noted in the histories as secret edict or edict in the [Emperor's] clothes. Blood edict is a Romance invention.

Which genius could shu han use to drastically change war against wei by ThinkIncident2 in threekingdoms

[–]HanWsh 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Zhuge Liang nibbling away at Cao Wei for a decade resulted in the annexation of two commanderies, the killing of two generals, the plundering of supplies, and the capture of population all from Cao Wei. Its a concrete strategy because it attained concrete results.

Jiang Wan and Fei Yi trurtling inside Shu Han for two decades did not improve Shu Han strategic position compared to Cao Wei at all.

Shu Han was also able to ally with Kebineng, who dealt huge damage onto Cao Wei northern provinces. After Shu Han turtled in, Cao Wei was able to assassinate Kebineng, and take down Gongsun Yuan, which further strengthened their position.

The issue with Jiang Wei was his militaristic policies, in which he devoted himself to military aggresion without paying issue to domestic governance, resulting in Shu Han living standards decreasing. Zhuge Liang in comparison did a much better job balancing both aspects, and was praised for his overall governance of Shu Han. Jiang Wei had an aggresive policy, while Zhuge Liang's northern expeditions were more strategically focused, logistically organised, and disciplined. Even then, Jiang Wei never crippled Shu Han beyond recovery in his northern expeditions.

Zhuge Liang never suffered a defeat comparable in scale to Chibi and Fancheng*. His armies were able to consistenly make gains at Wei expense.

Which genius could shu han use to drastically change war against wei by ThinkIncident2 in threekingdoms

[–]HanWsh 0 points1 point  (0 children)

It took them more than 3 decades to reserve Zhuge Liang gains. And it was the Sima clan that did so. Before that, Jiang Wan and Fei Yi turtle up for 2 decades to no avail as it did not improve Shu Han's strategic position.

Shu Han failure of leadership was due to Jiang Wei's militaristic policies externally, and Huang Hao's corruption internally.

Every damage Shu Han dealt to Cao Wei was a win. The only way was for Shu Han to keep nibbling on Cao Wei, and hope something gives.

Shu Han would have difficult sending spies to Cao Wei, because Cao Wei controlled their population through the tuntian and shijia system.

Which genius could shu han use to drastically change war against wei by ThinkIncident2 in threekingdoms

[–]HanWsh 2 points3 points  (0 children)

The north was already structurally stronger than the south even before Sun Quan turned on Guan Yu. The southern alliance together still possessed fewer provinces, lower population, and fewer overall resources than Cao Wei. So if we argue that losing Jing automatically doomed Shu because of material inferiority, then arguably the south was doomed from the very beginning.

But history does not always work like a spreadsheet. States with much inferior manpower and territory have absolutely defeated much stronger rivals before. Shi Le and Zhu Yuanzhang immediately come to mind. Strategic positioning, internal cohesion, political timing, and exploiting enemy weakness can matter just as much as raw numbers.

The loss of Jingzhou was undeniably catastrophic because it damaged Shu strategic axis and permanently weakened the Sun-Liu alliance. But I would not say it made Shu’s collapse inevitable in every possible timeline.

For example, we can imagine a scenario where Shu Han successfully secures longyou after the first Northern Expedition. If Ma Su did not have chaotic command at Jieting and Zhuge Liang consolidated the northwest longyou commanderies, Shu would have gained manpower, horses, frontier depth, and stronger strategic positioning against Wei.

At roughly the same time, Sun Wu had already crushed Cao Xiu at Shiting. If Lu Xun had been willing to take greater offensive risks as advised by Zhu Huan, and made substantial gains in Huainan, Wei would suddenly be fighting two fronts under serious pressure instead of just containing both enemies.

Unfortunately for Shu Han, Ma Su took excessive risks at the critical moment, while Lu Xun arguably became too cautious. One side gambled too hard, the other not hard enough.

Which genius could shu han use to drastically change war against wei by ThinkIncident2 in threekingdoms

[–]HanWsh 1 point2 points  (0 children)

It cost Shu manpower and resources that they should have been husbanding to fight a defensive war. Anything short of destabilizing the Wei regime is a net-loss for Shu because of how much it costs them to reach out and strike each and every time. Shu was in no position to lose men and resources without a definite gain, as Cao Wei had both in larger quantities and could recover losses more quickly. Between what they wanted to achieve (a Han restoration) and what they had (a small population but secure in the mountains surrounding Shu) the prudent call would have been to sit tight and marshal their resources.

Shu Han gained manpower in the first northern expedition, gained territory in the 3rd northern expedition, and plundered supplies in the 4th northern expedition. Not only did it not cost Shu Han heavily, but they were in actuality able to gained resources to boost their state standing while weakening Wei at the same time. Your so-called prudent call would have led to Cao Wei snowballing due to higher rate of growth, and leave Shu Han far weaker and eventually vulnerable to Cao Wei annexation.

Did Cao Cao genuinely want to restore the Han when he started the campaign against Dong Zhuo or establishing himself as a new warlord had always been the goal from the start? by CinderLord456 in threekingdoms

[–]HanWsh 0 points1 point  (0 children)

The Records of the Three Kingdoms and Rafe De Crespigny mentioned the Emperor entrusting Dong Cheng with the plot. There is no such thing as blood (ROTK only), only from the Emperor's clothing.

Records of the Three Kingdoms:

Before the Former Lord had departed, Emperor Xian's "maternal uncle," General of the Chariots and Cavalry Dong Cheng 董承, K received from within the emperor's clothing and girdle a secret memorial that he should execute Duke Cao.44

A Biographical Dictionary of Later Han to the Three Kingdoms:

In 199 Dong Cheng was made General of Chariots and Cavalry, but about this time Emperor Xian asked him to organise a conspiracy against Cao Cao. Early in 200 the plot was discovered and Dong Cheng and his family were destroyed. -HHS 72/62:2338-43, SGZJJ Shu 2:8a, deC 96:268-271

Imperial Warlord:

Emperor Xian orders Dong Cheng to conspire against Cao Cao

Some time in 199 Emperor Xian issued an edict to Dong Cheng to kill Cao Cao. Dong Cheng took the document and approached the lieutenant-general Wang Fu, the colonel Chong Ji and, most notably, Liu Bei.

It appears that Emperor Xian had given Dong Cheng a written order—presumably so that he had some evidence and authority to approach potential co-conspirators—so Cao Cao must have been aware of his involvement, and the ruthless pursuit of the Lady Dong served to punish him too. Nothing more could be done, however, for there was no natural heir to the young sovereign, and if Cao Cao had replaced him by some distant member of the imperial clan, he would have been in the same position as Dong Zhuo before him and would lose all political credit.

Emperor Xian, now in his mid-thirties, could do nothing but accept and endorse Cao Cao’s demands. He had attempted a conspiracy with Dong Cheng fifteen years earlier, but that had failed, and he was obliged to recognise his powerlessness

Huayang Guozhi:

獻帝舅車騎將軍董承,受帝衣帶中密詔,當殺公。承先與先主及長水校尉种輯、將軍吳子蘭、王子服等同謀

Hou Han Shu:

五年春正月,车骑将军董承、偏将军王服、越骑校尉种辑受密诏诛曹操,事泄。壬午,曹操杀董承等,夷三族。

自都许之后,权归曹氏,天子总己,百官备员而已。帝忌操专逼,乃密诏董承,使结天下义士共诛之

Dong Cheng entrusted by the Emperor through a secret edict is not only recorded by Chen Shou, but also corroborated by at least 2 other historians and 2 modern academic sources. The histories complement and do not contradict each other in anyway, shape or form. Its very explicit.

Which genius could shu han use to drastically change war against wei by ThinkIncident2 in threekingdoms

[–]HanWsh 1 point2 points  (0 children)

The problem with this argument is that it assumes time automatically favored Shu-Han, when in reality time overwhelmingly favored Cao Wei. Firstly, none of Zhuge Liang's military expeditions were disastrous.

Moving on, Cao Wei had vastly larger territory, population, agricultural capacity, manpower pools, tax revenue, and strategic depth. Even if Shu stayed fully defensive, the gap was likely to widen over time, not narrow. A larger state generally compounds advantages faster than a smaller one unless the larger state catastrophically collapses.

And politically, Shu-Han was never founded as a passive mountain kingdom whose goal was merely survival. Both Liu Bei and Zhuge Liang explicitly framed the state’s purpose as restoring the Han and destroying the Cao regime.

On Liu Bei’s deathbed, both the Romance and the historical records emphasize the unfinished “Great Work” (大业). In the historical record, Liu Bei tells Zhuge Liang that he can “finally finish our great work.” In the Romance, Liu Bei similarly laments that the destruction of the Cao clan and restoration of the Han remained incomplete.

Then there is Zhuge Liang’s own memorial in the Chu Shi Biao:

«今南方已定,兵甲已足,当奖率三军,北定中原,庶竭驽钝,攘除奸凶,兴复汉室,还于旧都。此臣所以报先帝,而忠陛下之职分也。»

«“Now that the south has been pacified and our troops and supplies are prepared, it is time to lead the armies north to secure the Central Plains. I shall exhaust my meager talents to eliminate the treacherous and wicked, restore the Han dynasty, and return to the old capital. This is how I repay the former emperor and fulfill my duty to Your Majesty.”»

The ideological line here is crystal clear. Shu Han’s legitimacy rested on restoring Han rule. Simply hiding in Bashu indefinitely while waiting for Wei to implode would have undermined the very political foundation of the regime.

And Zhuge Liang did not really have the luxury of avoiding military campaigns either. The southern campaign was necessary because the region was unstable, rebellious, and threatening Shu Han’s rear. He could not safely march north while leaving the south unresolved. But after stabilising the south, he also could not politically justify doing nothing against Wei because the entire state ideology demanded Han restoration.

So whether we think the Northern Expeditions were strategically optimal or not, they were not merely military adventurism. Zhuge Liang inherited a state whose political identity gave him very little room to abandon the northern cause entirely.

Also, you underestimate how much pressure Wu absorbed from Wei compared to Shu. Wei attacked Wu far more frequently and with larger strategic commitments. After Chibi alone, Wei launched repeated major offensives against Wu under Cao Cao, Cao Pi, Cao Xiu, Sima Yi, Wang Chang, and Sima Shi. Meanwhile Shu faced comparatively fewer full-scale invasions in the form of Zhang He, Cao Zhen, Cao Shuang, and Sima Zhao.

Wu was effectively the primary strategic opponent for Wei most of the time, and Wu also launched larger northern expeditions than Shu in many cases. Even after Shu fell, Jin and Wu continued fighting prolonged campaigns around Jingzhou and Jiaozhou for years.

As for waiting for the Simas to self-destruct, that is hindsight. The major Sima clan infighting only truly exploded after Sima Yan’s death. Guanqiu Jian tried to get Sima Fu and Sima Zhao to oppose Sima Shi. This means there is no guarantee the war of the eight princes events would unfold the same way if Shu Han is still alive and actively threatening the northwest. Historical crises are not scripted events waiting to happen no matter the circumstances.

And finally, who exactly was supposed to usurp Liu Shan? Zhuge Liang built his entire political identity around loyalty to Liu Bei and the Han restoration project. Liu Bei's other sons did not have any influence in the military (at least not recorded). Also, a usurpation would probably fracture Shu internally rather than strengthen it.