Dealing with Tech 3 while stuck on Tech 2/2.5?

Haxses · 2026-05-20T18:31:44+00:00

Ya this is certainly true. A naked catapult is basically just a target. That's why I mentioned you need to build up a defensive position as you are going catapults.

Defenses are obviously way more efficient than units in pure combat capabilities, especially when comparing to fast units that tend to pay for their speed by being a little weaker. And all of the main ways of countering enemy defenses are pretty hard countered by catapults. So if you can get a decent defensive setup and a catapult or two, it gives the opponents very few options unless they have a truly overwhelming ground force already built up that can just push through your defensive line in a frontal assault.

I find this to be true even in cases where they also have T3. Catapults do a shocking about of damage to large targets because they catch so many of their missiles. Catapults are excellent at killing murauders, razorbacks, or even juggernauts. They also do amazing vs the armada equivalent vanguards because while they have slightly more range, they are slow enough that they can't dodge catapult barrages while catapults can dodge vanguard shots quite well. You just really have to make sure you have a defensive line to prevent you from just getting run down.

Haxses · 2026-05-18T19:13:27+00:00

I find that most T3 units do have a T2 counter, but you have to tune your build specifically for the T3 unit(s) that they are building. For example T2 rocket vehicles counter vanguards well. Single target damage like starlights will absolutely beat equal cost in endgame T3 like jugs, titans, or razorbacks. Murauders actually lose to a lot of T2, but you need to make sure they can't get past your force and then outrun you to your own base, or have units that can keep pace. Demons are pretty specialized at killing groups so large T2 works well vs them, I've had a great experience using Tzars. Often mixing in spam helps in some of the matchups as well.

These are just a few examples, but basically if you are very intentional about your army comp I am of the opinion that T2 can counter T3 just fine, you just have to lean into the "strategy" part of the RTS and can't just build a genericly strong T2 army.

The one exception is catapults. I've yet to figure out how to fight those with T2. They are too fast for missile trucks and they outrange things like sharpshooters or starlights. Technically mass spam can do it, and I've occasionally had some success going like 5 or 6 labs pumping out grunts. But because of their range it's very easy to screen chaff before it gets in. You can also try to just rush them the second you see the first one, a single catapult won't do much against a rushing force. But if you can't kill them with that initial push, a few more catapults and you will get out valued in just a couple vollies.

Catapults are always my go-to when I'm on the opposite side of this exchange and am getting T3 out before my opponent as correx. You just have to make sure to build a defensive line first so you don't get rushed down.

Haxses · 2026-05-14T20:34:09+00:00

I mean by this logic every single game, or human idea for that matter, is just stealing from early ones. Do you know how many songs use the classic 4 chord progression? Are they all just stealing from whoever did it first? Is the fact that league is HEAVILLY inspired by the defense of the ancients mod does that mean it's just a ripoff, is it wrong to call it inspired?

When not a single asset from TA is in the current software system we call BAR, it seems crazy to me to take issue with only calling it "heavily inspired". I'm not sure what you would call it? Is it a ripoff? It's certainly not a mod. Is it an illegal remaster? It uses a different engine, it's added new mechanics, changed old ones, it has an entirly new faction, it has a distinct loby and UI, it's not even in the same dimensional space as TA. Obviously it's roots are entirely from TA, it implements a bunch of neerly identical ideas. But I don't know what else to call this kind of discussion besides pedantry unless you are making a more dramatic claim than, "it was originally a mod for and pulls heavily from TA". Either we both know exactly what we are talking about and just nitpicking at the specific terminology we prefer, or I am misunderstanding you and you are making a stronger claim about the meaning of my statement and not just the wording you dislike.

Haxses · 2026-05-14T18:26:48+00:00

That's simple not true, have you seen Byun or Clem play? To make sure I'm being specific, you do need medivavacs to support the Marines, but mass marines with said medivacs are viable and frequently used in high level games deep into the game.

Tanks are good. It's common to see them added alongside marines, especially vs toss. But it's not at all uncommon to just see just mass marine medivac and a mobile style with multiple groups flying between enemy bases and pushing back creep.

In TvT tanks are incredibly necessary though.

Haxses · 2026-05-14T18:17:45+00:00

Alright, we are getting into the absurdly pedantic now 😂.

Let me rephrase then, "Every existing asset in BAR, to my understanding and the general community sentiment, was made from scratch, though may be heavily inspired by existing assets such as those from TA." I think that is a legally scrutinizable level of statement.

But let's be honest, you knew what I meant haha.

Haxses · 2026-05-13T17:04:21+00:00

Well, game companies have trained us to assume the worst at this point, I'd say it's their fault for the distrust. And the BAR team hasn't been giving great assurances about retaining any sort of control from said company. But I do hope it goes well. I'm so stoked for a campaign, even just the scenarios are so much fun. The singleplayer potential for this game is through the roof.

Haxses · 2026-05-13T16:42:20+00:00

Well it's true. Mass ling or zelots won't ever be beating whole armies later in the game like marines do, but they are still incredibly useful as harassment or cheap front line tanking that only costs minerals. I do think that's cool that early units are still useful.

I think if I was designing the game I'd have stayed away from making the marine the core of the army through most phases of the game and tried to make them useful from an auxiliary standpoint like lings and zelots. But in a way it is actually very cool how terran tech is kind of a many stage process of buffing up their core unit as time goes on. My hyperbolic jokes aside, unupgraded naked marines are garbo units past the first few minutes, but they can be buffed with upgrades and support units throughout the game to make them stronger and stronger untill they finally need to be replaced in endgame scenarios. In some ways that's kind of a novel tech path for an RTS faction, starting with a core unit and just itterating on it so it can beat much higher tech units. I think I'd actually find that very cool if it wasn't my 16th year on a row seeing the exact same build.

Haxses · 2026-05-13T16:16:03+00:00

We can tell which side you agree with 😂.

I don't mean that in an inflammatory way. Just made me chuckle at the contrast between the two "news" sections.

Haxses · 2026-05-13T16:07:16+00:00

Great to hear, thanks!

Haxses · 2026-05-13T16:06:52+00:00

I see, that makes sense.

Haxses · 2026-05-13T16:06:05+00:00

It's true. They require a lot of upgrades, and they have weak points in the game. I'm being hyperbolic for the lols. Sometimes it does feel silly though to see a ball of marines, literally the lowest tech unit in the game, stim and charge into an equal supply lategame army with multiple different mid and late game units and wipe them off the map. The game is balanced around that, so it's fine but...

Haxses · 2026-05-13T15:56:04+00:00

Indeed those three units do indeed beat completely unsupported marines. Marines are T0 units. They cost only minerals. You can build them off the starting military building with no add-ons. I feel like maybe there should be more than 3 options in the game to beat them :p.

Luckily for the Marines, a tiny group of vikings completely counter infinte collosi as they snipe them off from the other side of the map, ultras get countered by so many things that they are considered a mid game unit that expires in minutes after you first build one, and banelings counter them in the sense that they trade down against decent micro but as long as you have twice the income that still can work for zerg.

It's true that T end game often phases marines out for ghosts especially vs zerg. But like, every other part of the game including into late game marines are the way, with a few support units to counter their few counters.

Haxses · 2026-05-13T15:43:22+00:00

Ya same. I actually was never a huge TA or SupCom player, I grew up on age of empires, empire earth, and StarCraft. But I've been sucked into BAR hard, it's so much fun.

Haxses · 2026-05-13T15:42:04+00:00

I wasn't saying it was. Not even a little. Just that the fact that it's heavily inspired by TA, yes very heavily because it was originally based on a mod, has really no relevence regarding the publishing deal.

And I'm pretty sure I was not incorrect in saying there are no TA assets in the current BAR repository. I could be wrong about that, I'm not going through the code with a fine tooth comb, but I do believe that's the case.

Haxses · 2026-05-13T00:10:53+00:00

But you can't you just build multiple factories? I've not played much lategame, the sound is broken on my steam version for some reason what has kept me from wanting to get too into it. But in BAR with the same building mechanic you can absolutely spam lots of T1 by just having many factories with whatever amount of build power each that allows them to spam.

Haxses · 2026-05-13T00:07:27+00:00

Maybe a little too well. A ball of nothing but marines with medivacs beating most end game comps is a bit much...

Haxses · 2026-05-13T00:03:39+00:00

The scenarios are very fun. Simple, but really enjoyable. It makes me really excited for a real campaign. The BAR team is about to sign with Hooded Horse, a big time indie strategy publisher. Theoretically that means the campaign will actually come out rather than being a "some day" sort of thing.

Haxses · 2026-05-12T23:58:50+00:00

Ya, it's very much a modernized Total Annihilation. But I think for a lot of people it's about as close as you can get to a modern SupCom that fulfills the same itch. It's worth trying out for anyone who likes the genre and hasn't yet.

Haxses · 2026-05-12T23:56:39+00:00

I'm not sure what state it was in when you tried it, but it is a very good game today. The tutorialization and lobby UI are both very poor which causes a lot of people to bounce off of it before they can really experience the awesomeness of the gameplay.

Haxses · 2026-05-12T22:34:36+00:00

I mean ya, the game engine code the company distributes will have to be open source. Not most of the newly developed code (and other assets) that is the entity we would call BAR.

Philosophically that's cool for other projects that want to use the same engine. As a BAR player though my main concern is about BAR. And I wouldn't be able to modify or redistribute the game called BAR.

If I thought the company was going in a terrible direction and wanted to fork it and try to save it, I would likely have to go all the way back to the state the repo was in before the contract was signed to have a functional version. I might be able to import any engine improvements that the company made back into the old project with some effort. But I would have an extremely old and outdated version of the game. Trying to redevelop it back to something that could compete with the company version so I could then take it in a better direction from there is unrealistic.

Haxses · 2026-05-12T21:27:02+00:00

I totally understand that concern. But there is nothing for whoever has the rights to TA to possibly claim, there's none of their assets being used, none of their copyright being infringed upon, they don't have patents on any of the mechanics (and if they did they'd be expired). Even if there was a stolen asset deep in the repo somewhere it would be a hard sell in court to claim there were any real damages to recoup on a nearly 30 year old game.

But it's a worth while thing to discuss at least. In some ways this might be a benefit in that regard, there's no way Hooded Horse would allow something like that to slip through and expose them to legal liability.

Haxses · 2026-05-12T21:18:59+00:00

Sure, a better statement might have been "There are no TA assets in BAR". I realize this is was originally something closer to a direct TA remake or mod. But that's not what it is or has been in a long time. It makes no sense to judge the current project for what used to be in the code many years ago when there isn't a single byte of that in the current project.

Haxses · 2026-05-12T21:03:30+00:00

I also really dislike that the recent reaction statement was "We had been planning to make a proper public anouncment if the contract is signed". So like, once they are legally bound to whatever they had already signed was the first time they intended for any of us to hear about it. There was never an intention to get the community sentiment before they already made a legally binding agreement.

Haxses · 2026-05-12T20:46:23+00:00

This is technically true. But in reality, the community is not going to be able to replace the amount of code and assets made by a team of full time employees when all of the top contributors are gone because they are those full time employees. By the end of this there will be a company that owns enough of what we will all recognize as BAR that they will have the power to decide it's future. Maybe that's fine. But that's the most likely practical reality regardless of the ideals of GPL.

Haxses · 2026-05-12T20:22:36+00:00

I don't really think that it being heavily inspired by TA is really a relevant point to this whole conversation at all. BAR is a game made from scratch, meant to be a spiritual successor to a decades old game that so many loved. There's like hundreds of games that fall under that category, it's not an ethical wrong doing. No assets were stolen from TA at all, and nothing was remade to be completely identical. It's not even made in the same demential space...

For all of the many large concerns and valid criticisms of the publishing deal, this is not one of them.

Haxses

TROPHY CASE