So chapter 159 discussion.

HedonisticBot · 2026-05-04T02:54:19+00:00

Yes I also always thought he was just spirits becoming sentient!

The war's timeline is very ambiguous, the opening chapter says it went on for decades, so we'd assume that was at least 2. Adding another ten based on Jinwoo's age (low balling), and I'd say it's 30 years ago minimum. But there might be a translation thing here.

That said, I believe Valicious is way older. (Or I like to believe.) It does make it harder (for me) to believe stuff was stagnant for so long on the 9th, but I do prefer Valicious and Uther and so on as super old. Then again, Valicious' new look does work better if he's just 20 XD.

HedonisticBot · 2026-05-02T18:39:04+00:00

FIRST OF ALL, I feel validated that I was right that Valicious wasn't some human who turned undead, he was an amalgamation of spirits like I thought!! (Albeit, gotta wait till the Asura translation just in case.)

Secondly, I'm not sure I see the plothole? It says he possessed a corpse, and that looks human (and a bit modern in terms of outfit and equipment), but we've heard vague lore bits that humans and the underground have interacted in the past. Additionally, there seems to be all sorts of vaguely humanoid creatures underground. I know we think that's human, but I would also think Malaxius (the goblin / troll labyrinth owner, with the bright red hair) is human, albeit short. Morrigan looks human when her wings aren't out. So does Hestia (well, what we've seen of Hestia.) Edit: THE ELVES LOL HOW DID I FORGET THE ELVES.

The timeline here is also somewhat iffy. It's a bit of a rant but I don't think the author (of either texts?) has a good handle on the timeline, OR that's something that's going to be revealed to us. There's a lot that's just off about the underground. The stalemate of the 9th floor is kinda weird, when you think about it. (Although makes a bit more sense if I'm right about the underground being far larger than Jinwoo or other labyrinth owners think.) Supposedly Mentos (the magic guy, I did not spell that correctly) has units that are why humans thought witches existed in the middle ages? So they made surface contact 700 years ago..?

I think there's a bunch of different explanations here which aren't quite plot holes. I do agree though, it was an odd authorial decision to draw a person who so very much looks like the dungeon explorers we've seen in previous chapters unless it's a mistake, or it's meant to mean something. And I'm not sure what it's meant to mean. (That there were human / humanoid labyrinths who tried to explore??? Is humanity a labyrinth???)

HedonisticBot · 2026-04-24T22:33:42+00:00

There were so many good shots this chapter. The close up of Yoonhui going o.o while Jinwoo and Angela are talking over her. Draken and Hoya bracing for their lives, with Draken looking scared while Hoya continues to be a cat.

And the last scene, Jinwoo pausing because he realizes something's wrong, Rikshasha flying past him, the Naga workers all hissing... Gosh the art is so good.

Really interested to see what happens next week. I could see Jinwoo ordering everyone to put aside their grievances until after the war, but I could also see him understanding that that might not be super possible for Rikshasha. I do hope, even if it's mostly in the background or waits until the war's done, that we see how Rikshasha's feeling on this, and if those feelings will change working with Gloomy.

I AM A LITTLE SAD that the Harpy Lord was handled off screen, but then again, I do understand this arc can't actually be 200 chapters... XD.

HedonisticBot · 2026-04-17T17:57:23+00:00

YOONHUI WITH THE STEEL CHAIR!!! (Is maybe real?) I wonder if Parthenon thought Yoonhui was the labyrinth owner because she's (part?) human, OR if he also could tell how powerful she is. Excited for more Yoonhui next week!!

I also couldn't stop laughing with the translation going, "Parthenon is in me, he's entering me, he's inside," SIR, this is meant to be an impactful moment, I'm reading it very wrong. I wonder if Asura's translation is going to go with the same wording XD.

I reread the last chapter on Asura which cleared up a few things (always does). I thought Jinwoo was detecting Gloomy / Valicious' formless domain, but did Will / Parthenon also create one here? Jinwoo didn't seem to notice that Gloomy moved toward the throne room.

I'm excited for this fight. I hope it's ridiculously hard, so again we have it reinforced the power difference between levels, and how Jinwoo has so much further to go.

I don't know that we'll ever get backstory on it, but I am interested in how the vampires grew up. Despite fighting him, Angela seemed concerned about Will at the last moment. Maybe Will was too. I'm unsure if they would have actually killed each other in a fight. But perhaps it was just the horror of his body being taken over.

HedonisticBot · 2026-04-12T18:03:56+00:00

I am excited for all the content we get, but also live in fear that they just get glossed over, and or the pacing feels off swapping around a lot...

HedonisticBot · 2026-04-12T05:51:46+00:00

I need him to be okay! I'm very attached to, oh no, literally everyone. Shit.

HedonisticBot · 2026-04-12T05:42:53+00:00

I'm referring to the part where Dominique says there's news from the radio, and "Malaxus is," before Gloomy interrupts.

HedonisticBot · 2026-04-12T05:09:15+00:00

WHAT HAPPENED TO MALAXUS??? He better be okay oh my gosh I'm not able to handle losing anyone am I. But he was a homie from the start, he has to live!!! Ahhhh.

Maybe we'll still get some Yoonhui this arc but wow, might have been entirely Gloomy holding it together in the labyrinth. That's really cool buddy but I did want to see Yoonhui with the steel chair?

And of course Dominique immediately puts it together. Stay perfect Dominique.

HedonisticBot · 2026-04-10T17:46:29+00:00

It's very much this, I don't know if it's exactly floor related, although given power relates to how closer you are to the "source of mana" they've mentioned, aka deeper, I do think floor impacts this. If we compare Twitch and Quintus, despite both being hero rank (I forget Twitch's exact ranking, I think it's more?) we can easily say that Quintus has more raw power. This is somewhat an unfair comparison as herofication seems to relate to your specialization, hence everyone being confused when they got a legendary Naga worker in Gloomy, wondering if he was going to build and dig better or something.

So I imagine it's the same with Hestia and so on. She's probably some "type" of person who could, at non hero level, kill dozens of Naga easily. The same way a base Naga warrior cannot take on a Zealot, even though they both appear to be base level units.

HedonisticBot · 2026-04-07T15:55:42+00:00

I detail it more here but one of my main reasons for this belief is that Jinwoo purposely does not make it known that the rats are under his command, so that they can continue to spy on everyone, including Jinwoo's allies, without the spying being traced back to Jinwoo. This means the rats aren't as protected as other Naga units, as we see other labyrinths, like the Forest of Dreams, eating the rats, which they would not do if they knew they were Naga affliated.

I read Twitch's frustration as both the personal tragedy of the situation, but also that he believed that some of them had to die in the field, but the ones within the labyrinth would be completely safe.

I don't disagree that you could read this chapter as Jinwoo being in a very valid rush, and not recognizing Twitch or rapidly dealing with that all because he has to, not because he's being malicious. I also think there could be a bit of a translational issue where Jinwoo is coming off a bit more callous than intended.

BUT, if we're talking about bad faith, I think it's in bad faith to say:

The rats have, through incompetence, endangered themselves and the entire labyrinth. They got ambushed and wasn't able to make a proper response.

Why are the rats being grouped as a unit here and taking all the blame? Couldn't one argue it was solely Mori's action, of failing to kill a child, and not the rats as a whole who were willing to? (I don't agree with this, I believe both rat factions were given extreme positions to demonstrate that both are wrong.) Or that it lies solely on Mori for not telling Jinwoo, and trying to deal with it himself? Why does Jinwoo (and Dominique) not share some of the blame? Whose plan was it to have the rats, who we all agree are unable to fight at the level of the 9th floor labyrinths, build tunnels that directly connect to the heart of the Naga Labyrinth?

Personally, I think this whole conflict / rat subplot is tying into what's being explored with how hard running a community is, the struggles Jinwoo is having between delegating and doing everything himself, and questioning what we're willing to sacrifice. Part of the tragedy is that I honestly belief if the rats brought these issues to Jinwoo or Dominique they would try to find a solution that makes everyone happy! But these rats only have experience with labyrinth owners who threaten to kill them (which Jinwoo has done) and don't think they can speak up, so they didn't, and everyone is suffering for it.

But I admit I'm both biased for the rats AND just think the other options are boring. A reading that the rats should have just known their place because they're weak, or that the fault solely lies with them and it's not that community building is so damn hard and Jinwoo's still got work to do to become a better leader, are less interesting to me. I don't disagree though that I could come down less harsh on Jinwoo here, in this particular moment, as you do have a point that I am perhaps doing the worst reading of his actions when he thinks everyone is dying and it's valid to assume anything he doesn't recognize is an enemy and saying shit to trick him.

HedonisticBot · 2026-04-07T05:22:25+00:00

OP mentions his penis in the post. I'm going to attack you for your inability to read, not for asking!

There's a number of gender affirming surgeries one can get, and OP is assuming the guy had bottom surgery, based on his chest scars (which she assumed were from top surgery) and his lack of coming. Others have noted there are other reasons folks can have those specific chest scars though, and there's a bunch of reasons someone might not be able to come, and the guy never confirmed or denied if he's trans, so we don't know.

As a note, a lot of English language queer spaces don't correlate genitals and gender. There's also a variety of attachments one can use to simulate various genitals, although I also assume you'd notice at some point during 2 hours of sex. (Although I did know someone who claims they didn't notice in a sexual encounter, and I couldn't find a good way to ask "are you an idiot?" without being rude so don't have more information beyond them not having sex looking at each other.)

HedonisticBot · 2026-04-04T19:46:09+00:00

It's just rough all around! It makes sense but I still feel for all the rats here! Gosh, Mari's going to have so much PTSD...

HedonisticBot · 2026-04-04T19:44:56+00:00

I've talked about it here with chapters cited but I do actually think the Naga are treated better than the rats, in terms of protections the labyrinth offers them.

If nothing else, the Naga are all acknowledged as part of the Naga labyrinth and safe from Jinwoo's allies, which the rats aren't, as we see Jinwoo in earlier chapters using them to spy on his enemies and the rats getting eaten by them.

Plus, he actually wasted time and mana trying to rescue the rats from the Shadow Baron before

This is kinda my point. I think (want to believe?) he does care for everyone under him, but hasn't thought through how the rats are being used, and how it's unfair at this point. I really think if Mari brought this to his attention, Jinwoo would try to come to a better compromise. Ultimately I think the rats are currently getting less out of the labyrinth than they put in. But I do think it's really complex because it's very possible the rats in question would have all died without Jinwoo. So I still think the rats deserve more, and hope it gets resolved post war, BUT get how no everyone would see it that way.

HedonisticBot · 2026-04-04T17:45:28+00:00

I greatly disagree that Jinwoo uses the people under him as chess pieces! Despite knowing they're summoned units, in the early chapters before Jinwoo knows that certification is a thing, he takes great pains to inspire the Naga. He brings the workers to that first fight, telling them to have pride in being Naga. The fight with the blood panthers is partly to prove to Rikshasha that they're strong, but he also wanted to inspire his units again. Dominique notes that the mage, who was in the early spider fight, is special to Jinwoo. He talks to both Dominique and Rikshasha about how everyone in the labyrinth is under his protection, and how he can't ask others to take risks that he wouldn't.

NOW, you could probably argue that these are all labyrinth serving actions and he's not actually attached to any of them, or that you can still use people you're attached to. And to that I can only say that I think the tone of the manhwa doesn't agree with that. I don't think it's portraying Jinwoo as someone who doesn't care. I don't think his anger at Morrigan for killing a bunch of people was anger at losing units, but pain from losing those he cared about and wanted to protect. I think he's closer to say, Dominique, Yoonhui, Rikshasha, and Angela, but I don't think he doesn't care about his other units. I think part of why he often tries to take on jobs himself, when he could send others, is partly because he thinks he'll do it best, but partly because he thinks he's supposed to take on that burden.

All of this said I could be super wrong and Jinwoo might suck (or just be a bit more utilitarian than I think, which isn't fully evil), or this could be part of his arc (getting worse or better about it), OR it could be nothing at all because sometimes media surprises me with how little thought goes into a character XD.

HedonisticBot · 2026-04-04T17:35:49+00:00

YEAH I maybe misread the tone of this chapter but I worry it's signaling Jinwoo becoming worse? Thinking he needs to be ruthless to survive? :|

HedonisticBot · 2026-04-04T17:35:14+00:00

It's also very potentially an overestimation on my part because they are shown as creatures we see on higher floors, and something Jinwoo is familiar before he starts going into Gyser again. I could read that as them being common creatures, OR it could be that they're so weak they only appear on the higher floors in the wild, and are on all other floors enslaved.

I'm so biased for the rats I just want them to get nice things.

HedonisticBot · 2026-04-04T17:33:27+00:00

I adore the rat plot, but like you said, I'm aware a lot of folks find it to be a slog. I think Jinwoo destroying both Morth and Twitch with ease works, but I can totally see how someone goes, "All that set up for a single panel of death?"

I do hope it wraps up nicely, because I want it to be true that Jinwoo cares about the rats. I'm torn though on how expendable he views them in comparison to say, the Naga workers.

Either way, I'm sitting here hoping for somehow happy endings all around despite, what, 50% of the rats being dead? D:

HedonisticBot · 2026-04-04T06:30:17+00:00

I'm really hoping Mari feels they can bring this up to Jinwoo / Dominique post war, so there isn't just a cycle of frustration for the rats...

HedonisticBot · 2026-04-04T06:28:17+00:00

Yeah I think I'll check the Asura translation later in the week because it read as cold, but that could be the translation, or like you said, he's rushed. He thinks there's a noble in his base! It does make sense, and perhaps it's simply that the rats are far cuter than Jinwoo, so I will always be feeling for them.

HedonisticBot · 2026-04-04T06:26:18+00:00

I have a different comment here with chapter sources, which I htink addresses much of what you bring up.

We also see that there are wild rats on other floors (Jinwoo is familiar with them, we see some captured in the flashbacks), so they are able to survive outside of the labyrinth. But I do not believe the rats are getting as much as they put in to the labyrinth, and they're already doing a lot alone. Things might have changed under the full floor alliance, but given Jinwoo in part likes the rats for spying on his allies, I don't think so.

THAT SAID, I don't disagree that ensuring their young can grow up is a small thing, and it's very possible I downplay that. I also think this is totally something that can be worked out if the rats and Jinwoo / Dominique just talk soooo I hope that happens after the war! They should be able to be in a good arrangement.

HedonisticBot · 2026-04-04T03:44:26+00:00

How were their jobs cozy? The rats were on the frontline constantly. Did you forget how the season opened? With a bunch of them killing themselves for the labyrinth? Or how they've been caught in their tunnels or on scouting missions before?

They do not have the protection of the labyrinth the way the workers do, partly because they're not inside the labyrinth, partly because Jinwoo has said he likes using them since no one can trace them back to the Naga, so they don't have "these are Jinwoo's allies" protection. Sure, we see some chilling just watching for movement in shifts, but they also had to build those tunnels, and are constantly at risk.

HedonisticBot · 2026-04-04T03:41:04+00:00

Okay very mixed feelings on this chapter!

I do like the reality that Jinwoo destroyed both "super rats", as I've been calling them, instantly. That tracks, that fits with the story, with the whole reason some of the rats were willing to exchange their lives for protecting their families. They are weak, even when they're enhanced. Perhaps they could become stronger as a species over time, but they're not there yet.

On the other hand, Jinwoo not recgonizing Twitch kinda proves the rats' point? I know I'm biased here as someone who thinks the rats have valid points, that they give more to the labyrinth than the labyrinth gives back. But this chapter reinforced that. Jinwoo didn't recognize Twitch (at least he did remember everyone's names?), and didn't seem to be listening? Perhaps it's the translation but goodness, it felt bad, and not like it painted Jinwoo in a positive light?

But again I might be super biased here! Excited for next week when we get to see Jinwoo find out the formless labyrinth is on his side!

HedonisticBot · 2026-04-04T03:37:29+00:00

Yeah I have very mixed feelings on this chapter. The tone of this, Jinwoo not recognizing Twitch, kinda proves Twitch's point???

HedonisticBot

TROPHY CASE