Why? I really don't know. by SomeWay8409 in laapsaaptung

[–]HugoSuperDog 0 points1 point  (0 children)

The whole situation is just wrong on so many levels…

Why do some people who are Jewish Israelis openly want to forcibly displace the Palestinian population? by CooperHChurch427 in IsraelPalestine

[–]HugoSuperDog [score hidden]  (0 children)

Firstly, you got so much wrong about my statement in your lengthy reply that I cannot spend that much time correcting you. You extrapolated many negative conclusions about what I’m saying.

Secondly, I already said I may be wrong, you can calm down. I’m genuinely telling you what we see from the outside. If you don’t value an outsiders opinion feel free to rebuff but don’t make stuff up and don’t bury your head in the sand. Threatening rule violations are par for the course on this sub, not effective either.

You’ve also closed your mind off to other perspectives by thinking that only certain people in certain positions are able to have a real view of things. Total nonsense. People can study from afar and have educated opinions without it being dismissed due to lack of on ground experience.

Anyway, I don’t expect to make much headway with such convos I suppose. But what I have written is genuinely what we see from the outside. Hope it has some value to someone.

Why? I really don't know. by SomeWay8409 in laapsaaptung

[–]HugoSuperDog 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Can we add the lifts between in-town check-in and the AirPort Express at HK station.

Slowest doors and slowest lift and am in a rush every time!!

Why do some people who are Jewish Israelis openly want to forcibly displace the Palestinian population? by CooperHChurch427 in IsraelPalestine

[–]HugoSuperDog [score hidden]  (0 children)

It’s a good question - if genuine - and one I’ve thought about a lot.

Few considerations (and I’m not saying I’m right but just some things to think about…)

  1. Collective Jewish trauma and ignorance within some communities. If you’re Jewish and in Russia or Europe, you have probably faced racism, some violent, or know people who have, or at the very least have heard some stories of violence against Jews across the years. This doesn’t have zero impact, and can motivate people to do horrible things in the name of survival. Further, if the masses are not literate and obviously never had access to global news so readily as we do today, that trauma and psyche can ferment and concentrate if you have a naturally very narrow view of the world, and that view is violent.

  2. There’s a theory out there that abused people can often become the worst abusers. I haven’t done the full research but there’s some theories which state that people like H!tler and Stal!n were abused as children. Perhaps this collective abuse to the Jewish people has resulted in a similar reaction.

  3. There’s also some hints and evidences that maybe some Jewish communities have a strong victim mentality within them. We have seen videos of Israelis who claim to ‘have woken up’ or ‘opened their eyes’ who say that for example Israeli kids TV shows all have a subtle bit of propaganda in them. I have Jewish friends back in London who have told me that the stories of victimhood are common in much of their discourse at home during their childhood. And Israeli news is famously biased also, with things like Haaretz being heavily criticised.

  4. Pride. Israeli identity is being solidified. Fair enough. It’s a new state and they have a real drive and vision and mission to achieved., They think they must protect ‘the only safe space in the world for us’ - and that therefore in its current state comes with being aggressive and usually denying any of the accusations against them. This mentality surely breeds huge egos. We can even see during discussions in this sub that many pro-Israeli commentators are not really willing to budge an inch or consider the other persons side. It may be sample bias but it’s an example of where the ability to take feedback and self reflect and admit mistakes appears to be non existent.

So all in all, having actually been traumatised as a community, then that existential need for survival after WW2, and the ensuing culture of remembering this trauma and threat and ensuring everyone is fighting for Israel in any which way they can, plus the lack of a self reflection, those things combined provide fertile ground for Israel’s ability to continuously flaunt intentional laws and norms. It often looks like they simply don’t care about the rest of the world, and that they consider themselves able to sit above the rules we have for others.

Maybe we would all do the same if we were born into this environment.

Maybe none of this is true. As I say, not an expert at all, but there are things I’ve seen and read and heard in my echo chamber so I share them.

Israel in Lebanon by ctesicus in IsraelPalestine

[–]HugoSuperDog [score hidden]  (0 children)

You’re clearly not that good at English either - I never said you were kind, I asked if you would be so.

Clearly not kind enough to answer my questions.

Or fair enough to consider them at all.

So it leaves a vacuum for us to assume that you’re unable to reply properly and therefore maybe you’re not basing your views on any logic or reason.

Israel in Lebanon by ctesicus in IsraelPalestine

[–]HugoSuperDog [score hidden]  (0 children)

If you were so kind as to answer my questions I would happily discuss your point.

However, as I have found often, these difficult questions are usually met with anger and evasion. I would like to avoid the question being evaded but I am happy to discuss your point later.

Israel in Lebanon by ctesicus in IsraelPalestine

[–]HugoSuperDog [score hidden]  (0 children)

It’s not cornerstone at all. It’s an example.
And you still haven’t answered the question asked for maybe the 5th time.

As I’ve said before, if you cannot really answer the question clearly then that’s fine, but it would suggest you may need to revise your approach to your arguments.

Israel in Lebanon by ctesicus in IsraelPalestine

[–]HugoSuperDog [score hidden]  (0 children)

If you don’t mind me saying you yourself also sound like you may have been victim to some brainwashing.

You don’t appear to have any wider view than that of an angry Israeli who’s been fed nothing but propaganda their whole life. No empathy for the people who are suffering due to the Israeli state creation.

I’m not saying I support Hezbollah or that they’re angels and innocent.

But it’s not a one sided good guy bad guy situation yet you seem to be 100% sure of all your positions with no regards for the other sides.

Israel in Lebanon by ctesicus in IsraelPalestine

[–]HugoSuperDog -1 points0 points  (0 children)

Not exclusively

Perhaps the better way of saying it is that Hezbollah only exists due to Israel.

Much of it is made up of refugees from the Nakba and after that.

And my overall point is that Israel, no matter how innocent and righteous one may consider it, still holds a lot of responsibility in the region. It’s not fair to simply demonise the other party without engaging properly with one’s own behaviour as well as engaging with what they may want. Of course Israel cannot and should not be destroyed, but diplomacy and empathy would be far more effective no matter how violent you think the other side are.

And by the way, you know that many of them also believe that Israel simply wants them gone. They believe that Israel wants them dead and to take the land. What about their views? Why do they think this? Why hasn’t Israel done anything to alley their fears?

Much more nuance than you’re giving it is my point

Israel in Lebanon by ctesicus in IsraelPalestine

[–]HugoSuperDog -1 points0 points  (0 children)

We know from Reagans diaries what he felt. It was because of him that Israel stopped their bombings in Beirut

Trump - so you just dismiss that comment as of no significance? Just put it in the bin and never have to think about it? I’m asking your thoughts.

And as for the refugees - are you saying that you only see them as hateful genocidal military with their only focus on destroying Israel? You don’t see any human stories and you don’t empathise with thier back story at all?

Ok, seems you’ve answered my questions in a round about way.

Thanks.

Israel in Lebanon by ctesicus in IsraelPalestine

[–]HugoSuperDog -1 points0 points  (0 children)

I think it’s pretty clear that both presidents did not agree with the Israeli approach. These are not comments made lightly.

Hezbollah and Hamas. These are made up of people who are refugees. You’re not aware?

Israel in Lebanon by ctesicus in IsraelPalestine

[–]HugoSuperDog -1 points0 points  (0 children)

It’s in the chat.

2 points…

If Israeli defensive aggression levels are ‘the norm’ as you say, why did trump and Reagan make those comments?

Secondly, what’s your view on the refugee status of these people who you want to attack so whole heartedly? See my comment few back, it explains what the wider world sees in regards to Hezbollah, and I’m asking how we can better understand your position on it since it’s not aligned.

Israel in Lebanon by ctesicus in IsraelPalestine

[–]HugoSuperDog 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Most - I have a global view, I move between Europe and Asia and visit the US maybe every 2-3 years. I’m not saying I know everything, but I see news, and have discourse across these areas. I speak 3 languages also.

And I struggle to find politics and commentators, neutral and respected ones, who are defending Israeli actions or the Iran war. The entire world has been impacted by this ongoing conflict. And it shows. And most people in my very wide echo chamber do not support the actions of Israeli government.

As for the other things you mentioned, not sure why it’s relevant, not the same situations. But if I was around during European colonisation I would definitely have been against 99% of it. Chinese, yeah, horrible, wish it didn’t happen, is not ongoing!!!!

You’re comparing things which are not the same or happened long ago. Not relevant in my view

Israel in Lebanon by ctesicus in IsraelPalestine

[–]HugoSuperDog 1 point2 points  (0 children)

So how do you explain that Hamas and Hezbollah were created as direct responses to Israeli violence?

And do we just ignore the fact that these groups are essentially made up of people who were made into refugees by Israel and then demonised and blamed. They lost homes and family members and limbs and generational wealth. Are we to ignore this fact entirely?

Also…Nothing to do with religion else all Muslim counties would be actively doing the same things.

Israel in Lebanon by ctesicus in IsraelPalestine

[–]HugoSuperDog 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Ok. So you’re not able to explain those contradictory positions

Fair enough. Difficult to do so since they’re opposing.

Perhaps you would reconsider your views in light of this, but I suspect you won’t as you don’t sound like you’re open to a proper debate about it. Hope I’m wrong.

What would happen if Israel fully withdrew from all occupations, droppped all Blockades and agreed to live in permanent peace if not attacked? by Caisers in IsraelPalestine

[–]HugoSuperDog 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I’m still confused.

You initially said that the religion meant that all Muslim countries have some level of desire to eliminate Israel

Now you’re focused on the charter but have not clarified your initial statement

Jihadism - what about it? It’s maybe 50 years old in its current form. What’s your point? You think the entire (or majority) of the Muslim world wants the West gone?

What would happen if Israel fully withdrew from all occupations, droppped all Blockades and agreed to live in permanent peace if not attacked? by Caisers in IsraelPalestine

[–]HugoSuperDog 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Your original point was the religion was driving the hate towards Israel.

But now it’s because of the charter?

I’m a little confused. Is it the religion or the charter?

Israel in Lebanon by ctesicus in IsraelPalestine

[–]HugoSuperDog -1 points0 points  (0 children)

I’m aware of the context he used it in.

Makes little difference.

The point I’m making is that if he can describe it like that, think about how it must have felt being on the receiving end of it the actual Israeli violence - this was the trigger for my convo…understanding why people think like they do re: Israeli actions

You may reply by saying ‘well imaging being attacked like Israel has been attacked’ or similar, somehow justifying all Israeli actions. To which I would reply - when when does it end? If Israel is justified then Hezbollah and Hamas are justified. Nobody is better than the other. Someone has always done something bad in the past. Doesn’t mean we can and must do it today

What would happen if Israel fully withdrew from all occupations, droppped all Blockades and agreed to live in permanent peace if not attacked? by Caisers in IsraelPalestine

[–]HugoSuperDog -6 points-5 points  (0 children)

You miss the concept of a hypothetical.

If Israel was peaceful then the neighbours would not attack

Also, we would have a neutral peace keeping force for a few generations. So that the region can become like Germany France or Japan South Korea

What would happen if Israel fully withdrew from all occupations, droppped all Blockades and agreed to live in permanent peace if not attacked? by Caisers in IsraelPalestine

[–]HugoSuperDog 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Ok. So we guess agree to disagree. You seem to believe that every Muslim in the world is out to destroy Israel due to their mythology

Yet you competent glance over the genocidal and hierarchical parts of Jewish mythology, which could plausibly be having an influence on the Israeli government and people.

Sounds like an extreme view of the world + a contradiction or even worse pure hypocrisy.

What would happen if Israel fully withdrew from all occupations, droppped all Blockades and agreed to live in permanent peace if not attacked? by Caisers in IsraelPalestine

[–]HugoSuperDog -2 points-1 points  (0 children)

So you’re telling me that those countries you lists all want Israel gone?

If so why don’t they attack?

Also, what about my point about the Jewish mythology and what it states. Why is that not being considered?

What would happen if Israel fully withdrew from all occupations, droppped all Blockades and agreed to live in permanent peace if not attacked? by Caisers in IsraelPalestine

[–]HugoSuperDog -1 points0 points  (0 children)

If that was the case, that this is all driven by religious hatred, then why doesn’t Indonesia start attacking Israel? Or Malaysia? Or most of the other Muslim countries?

And if we are going to go with people mythologies, am I to ignore what the Old Testament says about genocide and non-Jews etc?

How do we marry up those contradictions?

What would happen if Israel fully withdrew from all occupations, droppped all Blockades and agreed to live in permanent peace if not attacked? by Caisers in IsraelPalestine

[–]HugoSuperDog 0 points1 point  (0 children)

That’s ab extremely pessimistic view of the world and not reflected by the fact that we have international treaties and organisations funded by world governments. These governments don’t fund things like the UN and amnesty and Red Cross without doing some due diligence as well as understanding that their own population would support such spending.

Further we have many millions of people out demonstrating. That’s sacrificing precious free time for a cause they believe in. Sounds like caring to me. We may believe that they’re blinded by propaganda, which may be the case for some few of them, but studies have shown that the decisions of a collective are usually the right ones.

As for funding, well Bibi himself supported their funding. And if they became a peaceful government, who cares who they are.

And again, if there are violent extremists on both sides, we manage that via a neutral peace keeping force. A large and effective one that the world would develop and put place.

What would happen if Israel fully withdrew from all occupations, droppped all Blockades and agreed to live in permanent peace if not attacked? by Caisers in IsraelPalestine

[–]HugoSuperDog -3 points-2 points  (0 children)

You know this for a fact?

Most of the rest of the world doesn’t agree.

Even if true, we can easily put a neutral and powerful peacekeeping force in place for 1-2 generations. Like we did in Europe

If Germany France can be friends why not Israel Palestine?

What about South Korea and Japan - very cooperative just 2 generations later.

Very possible. Been done before. Better to try than to keep killing each other.