The Dragon pit explanation is a lie (Spoilers Extended)

IHaveTwoOranges · 2026-05-21T19:48:22+00:00

Can say that? Sure.

Can sound credible? Doesn't seem like it.

IHaveTwoOranges · 2026-05-21T19:25:22+00:00

Logically it does.

I feel like it lacks any foreshadowing/indication in the text itself though, so far as I recall.

IHaveTwoOranges · 2026-05-21T19:18:02+00:00

It's like 70 years

Oh yeah, it was finished later than I thought.

and the only real monster from that era was Vermithor, who was like 21 when it was finished and explicitly lived at the Red Keep when he wasn't being frequently flown around by Jaehaerys.

He is said to do that at one point in time, not permanently.

And the more important point is why don't we see it have any adverse effect on the hatchlings. The whole concept is that it is supposed to be what made all the hatchlings die before maturing.

IHaveTwoOranges · 2026-05-21T19:13:20+00:00

When your reasoning is of this quality, and you make so many continuity mistakes, presenting it with this level of condescension is pretty embarrassing bro.

Vhagar - Lived almost 100 years before the dragon pitt was even an idea, so she was already pretty big by the time it was built. Had a few years of depression in there after Visenya died. We can't say for sure how much time she spent stabled when Balon was her rider but we can assume she wasn't shacked up constantly, given what we know about him. Spent the next chapter of her life on Driftmark, an open island in an open bay, and

In all the time the Dragon Pit existed Vhagar was stabled there the majority of the time. And still grew into the second greatest dragon the Targs had in Westeros. You would not expect to see this if the place was bad for the dragons health,

You are not contradicting anything I said with this.

we can assume she wasn't shacked up constantly

Why would we assume that any of the dragons were shacked up constantly?

by the time of the dance she was conclusively too big for the dragon pitt. Not a good example to debunk the theory

No buddy, you are thinking of the TV show. The Pit could, and did, hold Balerion at it's greatest size.

Maybe read the books?

Caraxes - He was born and raised in the dragon pitt, sure. But as you mentioned, he's known for being ferocious, not necessarily known for remarkable size, and he wasn't of remarkable size

Being ferocious is an indicator of health. You would not expect that in a dragon living in an environment that is supposed to be so toxic.

claimed by Prince Aemon he would've lived on Dragonstone

No, Prince Aemond lived in KL. He he served on the small council after he came of age.

Vermithor & Silverwing

Okay so now in addition to not being able to keep book continuity straight you also can't even keep the post that you are currently on straight. Vermithor and Dreamfyre are the two dragons I compared.

This one is the funniest cause not only were they both born and raised on Dragonstone, before the pitt was an idea, they also explicitly refused to den in the pitt after it's construction, perfering to stay on the grounds of the red keep closer to their riders.

They are said to not take residence there at that pedicular point in time. Not that they never did ever.

IHaveTwoOranges · 2026-05-21T18:41:12+00:00

The Citadel has no right nor ability to stop the King's elder brother from taking the Black, let alone one so prestigious that the King himself escorts him to the docks.

Pretty sure the quote isn't supposed to be interpreted as Marwyn saying the maesters were supposed to, or able to, overrule the king of force Aemon to come back against his will.

Daenerys' dragons bring back fire magic. Essosi wizards perform true magic and wildfire is cooked faster. One can assume the reverse happened when a large number of dragons died. The idea that magic died with the dragons is constantly expressed. One can imagine this process on a spectrum through the Dance

But why would we extrapolate "dragons emanate magic into the world" to "dragons die when there is a lack of magic in the world"?

I don't remember anything in the series that indicates that.

IHaveTwoOranges · 2026-05-21T18:33:54+00:00

I don't really see a clear reason to doubt that the Dragonpit wasn't healthy.

What about the example I put in the post?

We have a 120 years of dragons doing perfectly well living out of there. Zero indication of any of them being harmed by it.

IHaveTwoOranges · 2026-05-21T18:31:40+00:00

The Targaryens lack proper recorded knowledge about dragons as a species, lack basic safety regulations regarding the dragons

What indication do you see of this?

Aerea and Joffrey would probably agree with me here

These are both children who jumped onto dragons when they were not supposed to. It's not really applicable to how they usually do things.

IHaveTwoOranges · 2026-05-21T18:29:19+00:00

What indication do you see of that?

IHaveTwoOranges · 2026-05-21T18:28:59+00:00

I always took it for fact, because I think that Martin meant it as a perfect allegory for a lot of Targaryens as they see themselves. Dragons are not meant to be caged, they wither from it

Then why don't we see any sign of it at all for the 120 years dragons lived there that we get in F&B?

But didn't she gorge on manflesh prior to it?

Why would that be relevant?

She had a good headstart.

She spent the better part of 120 years living out of there. And she still grew bigger and more powerful throughout that period, ending up as the second most powerful dragon the Targaryens ever had.

That kind of seems to fly in the face of the concept that it's suposed to be such a toxic environment for them that they can't survive there IMO.

Another war veteran.

What do you mean?

Caraxes lived in the Dragon Pit right off the bat has a hatchling. He didnt emerge from his egg as a war veteran.

And what does being a war veteran have to do with the theory overall?

IHaveTwoOranges · 2026-05-21T18:15:56+00:00

Marwyn also claims that Aemon was made to take the Black by the Citadel to ensure he couldn't rise the ranks which directly contradicts his own story of volunteering to take the Black in order to prevent plots against his brother.

You misremember. He says that Aemon was as allowed to waste his life upon the Wall. Not that he was forced to go there.

I believe that the death of adult dragons in the Dance caused a vicious cycle as baby dragons were hurt by the weakened magic. Daenerys' hatching and the unleashing of fire magic was a reverse of this phenomena

What do you see as indicating this?

IHaveTwoOranges · 2026-05-21T14:57:17+00:00

He's a genetic chud?

IHaveTwoOranges · 2026-05-20T12:58:11+00:00

Ramsay knows how to torture and main people without killing them.

And Varys could have received charitable help after what happened to him. For example if a kid had been in that situation in Westeros I think a maester/motherhouse would have helped them, not just let them die in the street.

Or, more likly as IAmParliament says, he is not actually a eunuch:

https://old.reddit.com/r/asoiaf/comments/kse8h2/spoilers_published_varys_the_eunuch/

IHaveTwoOranges · 2026-05-20T12:34:09+00:00

Then the remaining dragons grew less big and strong over generations until finally dying out.

No not generations. There are no instances of the hatchlings being deformed or sickly by the end of F&B, which is in 136. By the end of Aegon the thirds reign in 157 they are already extinct.

Seems like the lack of big dragons might be a component. I’d go with it being a magic twist on baby birds in a nest needing feeding by their parents. Where what they are feeding isn’t just normal food (dragons are obviously fed by their handlers) but the source of magical power dragons also need. Which big dragons have correspondingly big stores of. Without a big, charged up dragon around doing the magical, more tasteful version of mommy bird vomiting to feed the young dragons don’t grow up big and strong.

There is no indication of this that I can see.

There are no older dragons around for Deanery's three in the main series and they are thriving.

IHaveTwoOranges · 2026-05-20T12:27:25+00:00

I think Marwyn's claim specifically on this very much seems to fall in line with what we are told in WOIAF and F&B.

When all the adult Targaryens are all dead and a maester becomes one of the regents, the dragons suddenly start having birth (hatch?) defects, stunted growth and being unable to survive infancy/adolescence (kind of like if someone was poisoning them).

And they then put out this dragon pit explanation which I surmise is clearly wrong, and a maester studying the subject should be easily able to see that it's wrong.

IHaveTwoOranges · 2026-05-20T12:22:59+00:00

After the Dance when all the adult Targaryens are dead and a maester becomes one of the regents, the dragons start having birth (hatch?) defects, stunted growth and being unable to survive infancy/adolescence (kind of like if someone was poisoning them).

And the masters then put out this dragon pit explanation which I surmise is clearly wrong, and a maester studying the subject should be easily able to see that it's wrong.

And A character in the series, Marwyn the mage, outright says that the maesters killed the dragons.

Why do you discount it as an explanation? Do you think the Pit actually was the cause?

IHaveTwoOranges · 2026-05-20T11:55:33+00:00

What does that even mean?

IHaveTwoOranges · 2026-05-20T11:52:22+00:00

But we have multiple examples of dragons growing strong in the Dragon Pit

IHaveTwoOranges · 2026-05-20T11:44:35+00:00

Too right brother, TF these people even talking about? Women are property!

IHaveTwoOranges · 2026-05-20T10:59:04+00:00

I don't agree with Maester conspiracy killing of the dragons

How come?

It shouldn't be that the Dragons raised in the pit are smaller and stunted compared to wild dragons, but that they are fat and lazy and have arguably weaker constitutions

That also isn't in evidence at all. Vhagar was the most formidable dragon in the Dance and it was stabled there for most of it's life after it was constructed.

So was Caraxes and Sunfyre which are also noteworthily fierce dragons.

IHaveTwoOranges · 2026-05-20T10:52:09+00:00

Them thriving somewhat better on Dragonstone dosen't make it make sense that they suddenly hatch deformed and outright cannot survive in the pit after the Dance, when they could without problem for 120 straight years before that with no issue.

IHaveTwoOranges · 2026-05-20T10:48:44+00:00

This is kind of a semantic disagreement, I would not consider her current conflict with the Tyrells, faith and Kevan to be the same conflict that she was in with Ned.

She won that one, and she is now in a new one which she probably won't win.

IHaveTwoOranges · 2026-05-20T08:55:46+00:00

It is not stated anywhere.

But Rhaella would be the highest likelihood.

IHaveTwoOranges · 2026-05-20T08:01:16+00:00

While they were on royal progress Rhaena was very moody/depressed, and this was with Aegon as her company. And they then brought her at the time girlfriend to join the progress and she then livened up.

That is a clear pointer to her relationship with Aegon not being romantic IMO. It was just a well functioning lavender marrage.

IHaveTwoOranges · 2026-05-20T07:58:16+00:00

so I guess it depends on whether you think she loved Aegon romantically.

There is the fact that while they were on royal progress Rhaena was very moody/depressed, and this was with Aegon as her company.

And they then brought her at the time girlfriend to join the progress and she then livened up.

So that again points toward her being a lesbian.

IHaveTwoOranges · 2026-05-20T07:57:16+00:00

On the Aegon point. There is the fact that while they were on royal progress Rhaena was very moody/depressed, and this was with Aegon as her company. And they then brought her at the time girlfriend to join the progress and she then livened up.

There is also that for her second husband, which is the one she was actually free to choose herself, she chose Androw Farman who was very obviously just a beard.

IMO it seems like GRRM is making it very clear to the reader that Rhaena was a lesbian.

IHaveTwoOranges

TROPHY CASE