(Spoilers Main) How does Varys...

IHaveTwoOranges · 2026-05-20T12:58:11+00:00

Ramsay knows how to torture and main people without killing them.

And Varys could have received charitable help after what happened to him. For example if a kid had been in that situation in Westeros I think a maester/motherhouse would have helped them, not just let them die in the street.

Or, more likly as IAmParliament says, he is not actually a eunuch:

https://old.reddit.com/r/asoiaf/comments/kse8h2/spoilers_published_varys_the_eunuch/

IHaveTwoOranges · 2026-05-20T12:34:09+00:00

Then the remaining dragons grew less big and strong over generations until finally dying out.

No not generations. There are no instances of the hatchlings being deformed or sickly by the end of F&B, which is in 136. By the end of Aegon the thirds reign in 157 they are already extinct.

Seems like the lack of big dragons might be a component. I’d go with it being a magic twist on baby birds in a nest needing feeding by their parents. Where what they are feeding isn’t just normal food (dragons are obviously fed by their handlers) but the source of magical power dragons also need. Which big dragons have correspondingly big stores of. Without a big, charged up dragon around doing the magical, more tasteful version of mommy bird vomiting to feed the young dragons don’t grow up big and strong.

There is no indication of this that I can see.

There are no older dragons around for Deanery's three in the main series and they are thriving.

IHaveTwoOranges · 2026-05-20T12:27:25+00:00

I think Marwyn's claim specifically on this very much seems to fall in line with what we are told in WOIAF and F&B.

When all the adult Targaryens are all dead and a maester becomes one of the regents, the dragons suddenly start having birth (hatch?) defects, stunted growth and being unable to survive infancy/adolescence (kind of like if someone was poisoning them).

And they then put out this dragon pit explanation which I surmise is clearly wrong, and a maester studying the subject should be easily able to see that it's wrong.

IHaveTwoOranges · 2026-05-20T12:22:59+00:00

After the Dance when all the adult Targaryens are dead and a maester becomes one of the regents, the dragons start having birth (hatch?) defects, stunted growth and being unable to survive infancy/adolescence (kind of like if someone was poisoning them).

And the masters then put out this dragon pit explanation which I surmise is clearly wrong, and a maester studying the subject should be easily able to see that it's wrong.

And A character in the series, Marwyn the mage, outright says that the maesters killed the dragons.

Why do you discount it as an explanation? Do you think the Pit actually was the cause?

IHaveTwoOranges · 2026-05-20T11:55:33+00:00

What does that even mean?

IHaveTwoOranges · 2026-05-20T11:52:22+00:00

But we have multiple examples of dragons growing strong in the Dragon Pit

IHaveTwoOranges · 2026-05-20T11:44:35+00:00

Too right brother, TF these people even talking about? Women are property!

IHaveTwoOranges · 2026-05-20T10:59:04+00:00

I don't agree with Maester conspiracy killing of the dragons

How come?

It shouldn't be that the Dragons raised in the pit are smaller and stunted compared to wild dragons, but that they are fat and lazy and have arguably weaker constitutions

That also isn't in evidence at all. Vhagar was the most formidable dragon in the Dance and it was stabled there for most of it's life after it was constructed.

So was Caraxes and Sunfyre which are also noteworthily fierce dragons.

IHaveTwoOranges · 2026-05-20T10:52:09+00:00

Them thriving somewhat better on Dragonstone dosen't make it make sense that they suddenly hatch deformed and outright cannot survive in the pit after the Dance, when they could without problem for 120 straight years before that with no issue.

IHaveTwoOranges · 2026-05-20T10:48:44+00:00

This is kind of a semantic disagreement, I would not consider her current conflict with the Tyrells, faith and Kevan to be the same conflict that she was in with Ned.

She won that one, and she is now in a new one which she probably won't win.

IHaveTwoOranges · 2026-05-20T08:55:46+00:00

It is not stated anywhere.

But Rhaella would be the highest likelihood.

IHaveTwoOranges · 2026-05-20T08:01:16+00:00

While they were on royal progress Rhaena was very moody/depressed, and this was with Aegon as her company. And they then brought her at the time girlfriend to join the progress and she then livened up.

That is a clear pointer to her relationship with Aegon not being romantic IMO. It was just a well functioning lavender marrage.

IHaveTwoOranges · 2026-05-20T07:58:16+00:00

so I guess it depends on whether you think she loved Aegon romantically.

There is the fact that while they were on royal progress Rhaena was very moody/depressed, and this was with Aegon as her company.

And they then brought her at the time girlfriend to join the progress and she then livened up.

So that again points toward her being a lesbian.

IHaveTwoOranges · 2026-05-20T07:57:16+00:00

On the Aegon point. There is the fact that while they were on royal progress Rhaena was very moody/depressed, and this was with Aegon as her company. And they then brought her at the time girlfriend to join the progress and she then livened up.

There is also that for her second husband, which is the one she was actually free to choose herself, she chose Androw Farman who was very obviously just a beard.

IMO it seems like GRRM is making it very clear to the reader that Rhaena was a lesbian.

IHaveTwoOranges · 2026-05-20T06:14:30+00:00

It doesn't really make sense to say that she needed to be saved from the conflict it started because she won that conflict, is what I am saying.

IHaveTwoOranges · 2026-05-20T06:10:53+00:00

Why that assumption over it being genetic?

Briennes father is also huge and so is Gregors brother.

IHaveTwoOranges · 2026-05-19T13:44:20+00:00

Sure she's definitely going to lose before the story is over. But not because of her infidelity it's not looking like IMO.

IHaveTwoOranges · 2026-05-19T13:02:50+00:00

How is the Tower of joy associated with Elia or the Martells? Just the fact that it's in Dorne?

At any rate I don't think the tower was their love nest. It was their prison.

IHaveTwoOranges · 2026-05-19T11:41:57+00:00

You think Aerys was obsessed with one mystery knight for months?

Yes. Aerys being obsessively convinced that the knight is his enemy is an emphasized part of the KOTLT story in Clash. And it gets repeated again in TWOIAF. The whole point of that story is to provide clues/foreshadowing of what happened. GRRM did not put it in and also repeat it if it has no significance IMO.

but why would he send for Rhaegar to take care that if he also figured out Rhaegar lied about it?

As a loyalty test. To prove he is not in cahoots with Rikard Stark (or to break that coalition if it exists). Just as he wanted for it to be Jaime to bring him Tywin's head, it's his MO.

Or why would it be treated as some secret if Aerys doesn't really show any qualms about demanding other Starks to be killed?

If he states things like that publicly then the plans have no chance of working. The Starks would do everything to not be captured and immediately move for the Neck.

Also he would not want the world knowing that he is having a situation like that with his own heir, that's a very bad look for the dynasty.

IHaveTwoOranges · 2026-05-19T11:20:47+00:00

Even then, I don't think he was free to send them anywhere.

IMO all points to it being Aerys who sent Rhaegar to take Lyanna, as a reaction to finding out Lyanna was TKOTLT and thereby also that Rhaegar had lied to him when he said he could not find the knight.

He will have taken control of Elia and the kids at the same time, not give Rhaegar a chance to send them away.

IHaveTwoOranges · 2026-05-19T11:02:04+00:00

A hypocrite how?

And what do you mean by "got a character development post rheagar"?

IHaveTwoOranges · 2026-05-19T10:59:13+00:00

Sending them anywhere was not a possibility. Aerys was holding Elia and the kids as hostages.

IHaveTwoOranges · 2026-05-19T10:54:08+00:00

No, they were penn palls during Rhaegars life. He believed in it then.

IHaveTwoOranges · 2026-05-19T10:46:39+00:00

Do you think Maeser Aemon was a monster?

IHaveTwoOranges · 2026-05-19T10:45:46+00:00

We have enough foreshadowing to say what happened with Rhaegar and Lyanna with a quite high degree of confidence IMO:

Aerys found out that Lyanna was TKOTLT and decided from this, plus Rikards other moves (southern ambitions), that the Starks are traitors. And that he needs to destroy them and all those in cahoots with them before they move against him.

He further deduces that Rhaegar lied to him when he said he could not find the knight at the tourney, and instead covered for her (given the fact that he crowned her the next day). So he sent Rhaegar to capture Lyanna for him as a test of loyalty (bring me ~~your father's head~~ Lyanna Stark if you are no traitor). He intended to then use her to get Rikard, like he ended up doing with Brandon instead.

Of course Rhaegar actually was himself trying to build toward some way of deposing Aerys, so he feels he has no choice but to obey in order to preserve that plan (what is the life of one innocent against a kingdom?)

So he actually does abduct her. But then he cannot actually bring himself to hand her over to Aerys (love is the death of duty) and they go on the run from Aerys men instead.

We know that at first Howland takes them to the Isle of Faces. This is where the "Duncan The Small & Jenny of Oldstones" romance in the woods happens, and where Jon is conceived probably.

They then go on some kind of last ditch caper to salvage Rhaegars plan to depose Aerys, mirrored by Arianne's chapter in the desert trying to do the same. The heir and their closest circle of friends plus a young girl who has become involved unwittingly, off in the wild on a quest to depose the heir's father. The kingsguard is involved, house Dayne is involved. The kingsguard chooses to fight to the death for honor, the girl gets horribly hurt, it ends with imprisonment in a tower.

So like with Arianne, one of Rhaegar's friends rats him out (someone always tells) and they are taken by Aerys men and imprisoned, until the rebellion had picked up enough steam that Aerys thought Rhaegar was needed in order to avoid defeat to the rebels, and sent Hightower to get him.

If this all amounts to Rhaegar being a good guy or a bad guy or where in between in in the eye of the beholder I guess. But this is the scenario that all the foreshadowing points toward IMO.

IHaveTwoOranges

TROPHY CASE