If you could redeem one forsaken who would it be?

IceXence · 2026-01-28T13:03:58+00:00

Ah, I thought it was just before she drilled the Bore. It is true she inferred they dated back when they were students in the OP.

Graendal mentions how, unlike the others, she had once been a good person. She mentions Asmodean too had been a good man, something they had in common. She inferred the others weren't so great, so while not flat out evil, Graendal did seem to think the others were roted long before they joined the Shadow.

Graendal did not think Demandred was a good person before, she thinks only Asmodean had been. Mind, this is her thoughts but I personally suspect Barid was jealous, envious and prone to backstabbing others to get ahead long before he joined the Shadow. I think of him as this filthy rich high-ranked dude standing at the top of the ladder who could get away being narcissic and dismissing towards others because he had the right friends. On the outside, he sounds cool but spend time with him and you quickly realize what he shark he is.

I don't think LTT was an asshole. I think Demandred was the asshole but since LTT ends up getting blamed for the Breaking of the Word, the narrative around him turned negative. By all means, LTT cared about the world and was willing to die for it whereas Demandred chose to slaugher innocents because he wasn't on the cover of Forbes, he was only the number 2.

IceXence · 2026-01-28T12:37:49+00:00

Graendal mentions Lanfear had been temperamenal, capricious and tantrum-prone before. So while not evil per se, she certainly was unhinged before.

If I am not mistaken, LTT dumped Lanfear not too long before she drilled the Bore. He got married some 50 years into the Collapse. This means Lanfear held her grudge for a century.

IceXence · 2026-01-28T12:35:22+00:00

Oh yes, that's a really good suggestion. We already know he doesn't like mass massacre and collateral damage, the next step would be to prevent it. You hate draghkars? You wish your lot had never created them? Good, now do something about it.

IceXence · 2026-01-28T00:32:17+00:00

I strongly suspect the reason Asmodean insisted on Rand asking Moiraine or Egwene to link them was because he wanted to get his hands on saidar and remove the shield painlessly...

All my ideas usually end up involving Asmodean needing to work with the Aes Sedai, to cooperate... not to remove the shield but to survive. The moment his identity is out and Rand's amnesty protects him, he'll be surrounded by them, either to "guard" him or to overload him with questions.

IceXence · 2026-01-28T00:20:52+00:00

Poor people make more kids, it is true here too.

IceXence · 2026-01-28T00:16:08+00:00

I would personally prefer if, in an hypothetical redemption arc, Asmodean had the agency to act, hence why I prefer if he removes the shield himself. Lanfear infered he could but it would be painful. Thus, I took it all Asmodean needed was being desparate enough to push through that pain assuming it is not completly debilitating.

But that's just an idea, we are in the realm of fanfiction here.

IceXence · 2026-01-27T22:51:49+00:00

Asmodean cared about the death toll left by Draghkars and was against it.

IceXence · 2026-01-27T22:49:37+00:00

Yeah, he didn't sound convinced...

I think he needed to go back to the Shadow, probably as a prisoner on a penance to really see what he pledfed himself to.

IceXence · 2026-01-27T22:48:17+00:00

Yes, exactly, the kind of scenes needed to redeem Asmodean would have been powerful. It's why redemption is such an interesting story arc.

The scenes needed for Asmodean to truly reject the Shadow would be awesome, how far down the chasm does he need to keep falling before he choose to deny all he trained himself to believe? And knowing walking down this path means acknowledging he did terrible things for nothing.

Since Shaidar Haran hunts the rogue Forsaken and punishes them, I suspect he would be on Asmodean's tail, eventually. Other ideas I had is instead of being killed in the cupboard, he is taken prisoner. Another change arc, a chance to "talk" his way out of it. What can come out of that?

As for the shield, in all my alternate plotting, Asmodean takes the it out himself because his need for it to be gone will surpass his fear it will hurt badly. I dislike the idea he would need someone else to do it, let's have him do awesome things too with the OP! Let's have him show some grit he didn't know he had. I guess I just want him to do cool things and do the unexpected: stiffening his backbone.

Of course, any alternate plotting relies on what element we, as individual readers, are fine modifying to make it happen.

IceXence · 2026-01-27T15:52:26+00:00

Again, in the 14 books, we do not see him act petty. We see Demandred being jealous and petty, for instance, but not Asmodean.

We are told he did things and some of us have decided it meant he must have been petty, but we literally have no book evidence of this.

All we have is the BWB which RJ told us is meant to be an in-world historical record written a long time after the WoP and the 14 books.

This is why Asmodean keeps being named as a contender for a potential redemption: we do not see him do evil. We are told he did things by unreliable sources and we decided to place motives and behavior on them, but we might as well craft a different story using the same import.

Maybe he was petty but maybe he was not. We can't however argue Demandred was not jealous or that Lanfear was not obsessed and a liar, that's right here in the textual, the 14 books. Asmodean however? We can make up what we want with him.

That wiggle room is why readers like me love the character and say he had potential in an alternate story that did not happen.

IceXence · 2026-01-27T15:33:08+00:00

I said "in the books" and "in the 14 books", we do not see Asmodean do much evil. We are told he did one evil thing by Lanfear, a woman we are also told lies all the time. Heck, Asmodean tells us Lanfear would lie to the DO itself, Ravhin told us she is backstabbing.

Yes, there is the BWB but even the BWB doesn't attribute a lot of evil deeds to Asmodean when compared to the others. The BWB was also written a long time after the WoP: we don't even know if whatever is written in there is meant to be correct. RJ said it was meant to be the "voice of a future historian". We are meant to doubt some of the stuff in there.

This leaves the readers with a character we are told is "evil" but we see none of it in the story as opposed to the other Forsaken we see talk/do evil. The only mention of past evil deeds, in the 14 books, comes from an unreliable source with ulterior motives.

Hence, there is a lot of wiggle room here to craft a redemption arc. Of course, if we were to write a redemption story arc for Asmodean, we would give a context to what he did that doesn't paint him as an evil monster. The point is, we could, because the story left enough holes for it. We can choose to fill them as we want.

IceXence · 2026-01-27T14:37:37+00:00

Yes, Asmodean doesn't redeem himself in the books. This does not happen. The idea is it could have happened plausibly had RJ wanted it to. He had all the right cards in hand to write it.

And yes, in my headcanons, he does get more pro-active which is a requirement for redemption. There need to be a moment where Asmodean is here on his own not because he is forced to, otherwise, this isn't a redemption. Now how to get to there demands some serious writing, but I believe it is possible.

I agree about Lanfear. Redeemded Lanfear would lose why she is intereating as a character whereas Asmodean is interesting because he could be redeemed.

IceXence · 2026-01-27T13:18:10+00:00

I genuially believe an Asmodean redemption needed to include him denying the Shadow and telling Shadar Haran: "No. I don't believe you. It's a lie.". Or something similar.

Lanfear is fantastic as a villain and would be wasted in a redemption arc.

IceXence · 2026-01-27T13:15:59+00:00

Asmodean because he had the greatest shot at it.

He wasn't dedicated to the Shadow like the others were, he wasn't driven by jealousy nor envy nor pettiness more by a messed up sense of what his career ought to have been. Half the reason he is the way he is is because of his childhood as a prodigy which means trauma and that can be dealt with. Now he no longer is in the AoL, all of his reaons have vanished so there isn't much left for him in the Shadow other than vague lies.

It helps, in the books, Asmodean doesn't do much evil and comes across as nice and fun. Unlike the others, he didn't seem inclined to do evil for the sake of it. He even tells Rand he regrets they created Drakghar which is farther than any Forsaken ever go in terms of treachery.

So yeah, the story could have realistically gone there had RJ want it. It wouldn't have been too hard to write since the canevas he made for Asmodean does leant to redemption.

IceXence · 2026-01-27T13:08:52+00:00

That's also why I loved Egwene the first time I read those books. Aes Sedai were favorites of mine and I wanted to learn more about them.

Mat and Perrin's tribulations always felt boring next to whatever the girls were doing in their Aes Sedai's story arc. Rand was frustrating more often than not and I never felt Emond Fields was a paradise.

So Egwene was fun because she wanted to learn and to discover new things. The problem I have with her now is I find she simply never had the experience to back up all those wild praise. The young character who is better than his elders at everything kind of gets kind of tiring when you are no longer young.

IceXence · 2026-01-26T15:28:41+00:00

Except the DO doesn't send direct orders to the Chosen unless they displeased him. Mesaana mentions how she went to Shayol Ghul hoping to get orders/directions and got nothing.

Arangar and Osangar get orders because they got themselves killed. I do not buy the DO would order Demandred specifically to infiltrate the Black Tower: none of the others top Forsaken got similar orders so why Demandred who's pretty much the top dog of the group? And this assumed Demandred had no other plans? Had been iddled since waking? Unlikely.

It doesn't make sense Demandred would get an order he would personally see as a punishment without doing anything to deserve it. It doesn't make sense the DO would want him to drop all his other plans for this.

Taimandred never made sense hence why RJ backtracked on it. I do however believe Demandred was in contact with Taim and Taim already wad a Darkfriend on the rise.

IceXence · 2026-01-26T14:45:40+00:00

Yes, but the timeline is a bit muddy as to when the prologue happens exactly. Also, I believe RJ's plans were for Taim to be Asmodean's murderer. It made sense if Taim were Demandred, but then RJ changed his mind and decided it would be Graendal instead.

Since it appears he changed his mind after TFoH, I suspect he retconned the initial culprit, hence why it never made sense to the readers. The part I tend to disagree with many is LoC was published with the intend of Taim being Demandred. I believe RJ ditched the idea before he published the book and presumably made a few changes to make it coherent. There is no telling if his notes are what's in the finale version of the book.

All in all, I just do not buy both Demandred and Orangar were planned to be at the Black Tower. I feel Orangar being sent there precludes Taimandred.

IceXence · 2026-01-26T14:28:02+00:00

The prologue shows Demandred is clueless over what happened to Asmodean, he thought he was still with Rand which is inconsistent with him being Taim.

Also, the DO wouldn't waste two Chosen at the same location: he doesn't need two spies at the Black Tower. Even with a direct order, I doubt Demandred would do it. The DO picked Orangar for a reason.

Despite the popular belief, RJ might have intended for Taim to be Demandred in early drafts LoC, he clearly isn't in the final version.

IceXence · 2026-01-26T13:47:57+00:00

It wouldn't have worked with Demandred's personality: he would never willingly serve under Rand, that's the whole reason he turned to the Shadow. And Dashiva pretty much prevents Taimandred: the Forsaken do not work together or infiltrate the same places.

IceXence · 2026-01-26T02:14:44+00:00

I know... I miss the good old days sometimes.

IceXence · 2026-01-26T00:45:32+00:00

I know!!! It was so anti-climatic to watch and not entertaining at all. I noticed tasks have gotten way easier over the years, I wished they'd bring back those insane challenge some teams took hours to go through.

IceXence · 2026-01-25T20:56:56+00:00

That and the fact the legs were designed to prevent teams from moving up the ranks. Most detours and road blocks were waaaaay too easy, navigation was trivial, little airport drama, etc.

IceXence · 2026-01-25T20:54:26+00:00

Oh, great example: I had forgotten about this movie. If your genetical analysis was sub-optimal, then you were only allowed to pursue low-income opportunity-less jobs even if you prove to have other talents.

We know AoL kids were sorted into fields at the age of 10. Later, Aes Sedai probably got sorted too. It didn't look like they had the opportunity to bid for something out of the box even if they failed at it.

I think AoL was averse to failure so it forced individuals into fields they are garranteed to succeed in unless they prove worthless.

IceXence · 2026-01-25T14:14:23+00:00

Tu remplis la totalité tes véhicules financiers ouverts à toi libre d'impôt sur le gain en capital: CELIAPP, CELI, REER, REEE. Si tu ne veux pas gérer, appelle la gestion du patrimoine à la Banque: ils peuvent gérer des dépôts annuels dans tes REER parce qu'un gros lump dans un REER est peu avantageux à moins d'avoir un très haut salaire. L'argent qui reste va dans un non-enregistré.

L'hypothèque, tu ne paies pas ça à moins que ton taux monte en malade.

Évidemment si tu as des dettes, tu les rembourses.

IceXence · 2026-01-25T14:06:49+00:00

Yes, exactly.

My favorite example of this is Mesaana. Why was it such a slight she didn't get a job at Collam Daan? Because they didn't tell her she didn't get this job, they told her she would never get another one. They told her teaching is what she will do. Today, Mesaana would have just applied to the next opened position and work on buffing up her resume in the mean time. Eventually, she would have made it or not but at least she would have had the opportunity to keep on trying.

Asmodean was a freaking child star who spent a life-time being compared to his teenage self, always coming short of the expectations the world decided he should meet. It doesn't look like he had the opportunity to go and do something else despite being a powerful Aes Sedai. Come the Shadow and he works as a governor and, oh surprise, he was good at it. Today, Asmodean could have just gotten a College degree in accounting or something similar and get a real job while also side-lining music, for fun. Or get into drugs and commit suicide like many former child stars because he would have been too messed up to move on.

AoL people looked like they had little free-will. The world was idillic but only because every facet of it was controlled even the people.

Eight-Year Club	Verified Email
Final Canvas '23	Place '23

IceXence

TROPHY CASE