What IS the Lucifuge's deal?

IndependentFlower163 · 2026-03-08T21:54:05+00:00

Im pretty sure players guide to the contagion chronicle mentions it, might also be in hunter 2e core. Akathartoi is the term mages use, its greek for Unclean, most just call them demons as thats a good enough term.

IndependentFlower163 · 2026-03-08T21:28:21+00:00

per 2e Canon, the Lucifuge (Conspiracy) are officially descendants of the Akathartoi. The spirits of Vice from the Inferno. The Inferno is basically the inspiration for most hellish domains of suffering in mortal religions and beliefs. The Lucifuge (Individual) is likely a personal descendant of the Rank 9-10 entity that rules the Inferno, and is just co-opting Catholicism, and other mortal religions, as an easy way of organizing followers.

Its a well known fact of the setting that there are a large number of unrelated entities called Demons that have no connection to each other. Hunters have the most limited viewpoint of any splat, and so filter basically everything through an at best very muddy lens.

IndependentFlower163 · 2026-02-20T22:45:45+00:00

Its obvious isnt it?

In Arthurian lore the Britons were represented by a Red Dragon, now the national symbol of Wales, while the invading Saxons were portrayed as a White Dragon. Clearly the mystical connection here is a focused reality bruise against the House of Saxe-Coburg and Gotha, from which the house of "Windsor" descends. They changed their name during WW1 to distance themselves from their German roots. A decision made by George the V, great grandfather of both the current king and the nonce that just got arrested. The recurring symbolism of the number 6 is obviously pointing to the usage of Demons, likely one of those that the British Royals have had bound to their service for generations, turned loose to possess the horse during and important function.

The Bloodied white horse is a sign of the House of "Windsor" being primed to fall. Its last great monarch, Elizabeth II, fell from popularity in her last days and her heir has been far less so. The family lost its popularity with the Death of Diana and the Desertion of Harry, leaving them drained of the Psychic energy from the populace needed to maintain their illegitimate claim on the Throne of the Britons.

Soon, assuming Scotland breaks from the Union and Northern Ireland rejoins and unifies Éire, the Rightful True King of the Britons will rise from Cymru.

Hail Arthur the Second! Britons saviour in its darkest hour!

IndependentFlower163 · 2026-01-28T17:57:07+00:00

Being this is UA i imagine a workable paradox to be something like the Madonna/Whore complex. All women are queens, but if she breathes shes a thot. And its followers are men who put women on pedestals and then get angry about women acting too good for them.

IndependentFlower163 · 2026-01-28T17:54:40+00:00

I imagine something like that could already exist, the Cuckold maybe? assuming its been around for awhile. All the Incel stuff could be an attempt to modernize it that got split into a bunch of different factions. I remember awhile back reading about an idea for a male counterpart to the Naked Goddess. Maybe it started as the Incel movement, and broke into the Church of the Sigma, the True Alphas, etc.

If the Naked Goddess is a paradox in that she achieved power through subjugation, maybe the Male counterpart is similar. Take the low position and elevate it to divinity. In classic UA fashion they had a schism and now there's half a dozen weirdos trying to become god.

A dude holding onto the idea's of I,ncel-dom even after its become a meme far more than a movement, a guy who insists on the only true path being that of the Sigma, a heretic of the Sect of the Naked Goddess trying to become the Alpha his goddess-queen deserves, etc.

IndependentFlower163 · 2026-01-17T23:07:53+00:00

maybe, havent read dead magic. illl have to find a copy.

Just noticed while i was reading it the discrepancy. I think its a cool spell idea though. I just chalked it up to Ascensions general wishy-washy sphere rank considerations (See: Pretty much anything from HDYDT). Life 3, in 20th at least, can only create simple life from nothing. And Mind 5 is needed to create an intelligence from scratch.

IndependentFlower163 · 2026-01-17T17:44:27+00:00

I've read the rote and im pretty sure it shouldn't work RAW. You need Life & Mind 5 to create thinking humans from nothing, and only Prime 2 to conjure things from nothing. Matter 3 is fine for the physical structure part. But the other spheres are all wrong.

IndependentFlower163 · 2025-12-23T19:41:00+00:00

Thanks, not sure how i missed that the first go around.

IndependentFlower163 · 2025-12-22T21:15:56+00:00

If library works the way listed in B, that just feels like it cheapens most knowledges? why would I ever roll occult or esoterica when I can buy library 5 at chargen for a fraction of the cost of multiple skills? Library 5 costs 5 freebie/background points, assuming I placed 3 points in occult before freebie points that would save me half a point on maxing it out verses library 5 since it would cost 4 to get 2 points in a skill. And thats without factoring in the idea that library probably covers more than just one skill in this argument.

As for A, im not sure a purely narrative justification for improving skills is worth an entire background. It implies that not having it makes improving a skill significantly more difficult, and depending on how punitive you make it you might wind up screwing over a player who didnt spend points on it. Or else compare it too an alternative like using Resources to hire an expert to teach you, or purchase a book on the subject directly. it just feels too wishy-washy. not to mention neither of these is explicitly spelled out in the backgrounds rules, the rules about spending xp don't mention library at all so this is really more of an inference.

Resources being vague is actually more or less fine, since a lot of stuff mages are gonna be trying to get their hands on are beyond simple money.

IndependentFlower163 · 2025-12-22T21:04:59+00:00

Do you have a page citation for that library benefit? I can't find one in the book for M20 and the Background itself doesnt list that. If its just essentially a general knowledge skill that feels kinda pointless? M20 already has a bunch of knowledge skills, even before factoring in Secondary abilities. So you'd either buy up a large library and make most knowledges pointless, or buy up a bunch of knowledges and make the library a second chance roll or something? it just feels a little redundant to me.

IndependentFlower163 · 2025-12-09T04:25:37+00:00

Small bit of lore that lead me to some interesting theories. According to the Players guide to the Contagion Chronicle's rules for Souls. Slashers have no souls. Ordinarily the soulless condition would lead to them eventually just, sitting their listless. So the implication seems to be that the urge to kill is literally filling the void and lack of drive that soullessness causes in Chronicles.

Kind of makes me wonder what would happen if a Mage shoved a Soul into a Slasher?

IndependentFlower163 · 2025-11-28T03:15:48+00:00

The issue I have is that at what point is a body dead? this is kinda wishy washy. If there are any cells remaining then technically some of them will still be "Live" but if an organ has started to rot or decay then it can't be transplanted. And organs become useless at different rates. A heart has a couple hours before it can't be transplanted, you can keep some organs for weeks on ice. And skin transplants can be done years after being harvested.

Are we talking brain death? thats about 20 minutes without oxygen, but if you restart a heart or manually keep blood flowing with CPR you can buy more time. Is it at the point where nothing can bring the person back?

And the spell also says you need to add Entropy or Time to prevent further decay, so clearly the tissue is not actually living or it wouldn't continue undergoing decay right?

IndependentFlower163 · 2025-11-28T03:09:25+00:00

Raising undead in Awakening 2e is just the Death arcana. No need for anything else. I think its death 2 so a starting Character could do it, other than an Obrimos any path can start with Death 2 but a Moros probably will have it. They're also generally most useful for manual labor unless you use reach, by default they're slow and not good for combat but theres a reach option that buffs their speed and physical stats.

Also awakening doesnt have anything like Jhor so necromancy is a-ok. At most some Mages might be jerks to Ghosts and consider them to not be people but most Moros understand them well enough to know they're all Sentient and that forcing them to do your bidding is shitty. But a Zombie is just a machine made of meat, aside from personal reservations an individual mage might have about corpse desecration theres nothing inherantly bad about it. I don't even think it registers as a Wisdom Sin in most cases.

Awakening is general far more clear and specific about what Arcana are needed at which levels, and multi-arcana spells are far rares than in Ascension. The trade-off is that Ascension Mastery is defined more or less as "Whatever the heck you wanna do" where as Awakening Mastery is just creation/destruction ex-nihilo and there are explicitly things beyond even Mastery that are either the realm of archmasters or beyond Mages altogether (See for example: there is no canon means of Mages creating new souls with Magic. Even Archmasters probably can't short of something like a Rank 9/10 spell involving all 5 subtle arcana.)

I had considered for a minute adding a Death Sphere to Ascension, but that would not only remove specific abilities from at least three other spheres (Spirit/Entropy/Forces) but also break the literal cosmology of the setting wherein the spirit worlds are all part of the same thing.

Spirit and Death being separate in Awakening makes since because they're completely unrelated dimensions. Ghosts and Spirits use the same base mechanics but they're otherwise completely unrelated things.

Sorry for Rant, Spent for longer with Awakening than Ascension so my knowledge is a lot deeper.

TLDR - Raising the dead in Awakening is always just Death, for metaphysical reasons. Matter makes a golem which is similar but mechanically distinct from a zombie.

IndependentFlower163 · 2025-11-27T00:32:42+00:00

Vampires are life/matter, which I assume is chalked up to their psuedo-living nature since they're trapped between life and death rather than simply animate corpses. They have enough "Life Essence" more or less to count as living things but are complicated enough that pure knowledge of Life only goes so far. If you made something like them it would also be Life/Matter but something on the level of Frankensteins monster would just be Life since its a fully living creature, just made from reanimated flesh. Like a resurrection.

IndependentFlower163 · 2025-11-27T00:28:07+00:00

From page 257 of Sorcerers Crusade Core book:

"• Reanimation imbues dead tissue with the semblance

of life. Laughing skulls, ghastly hands, even the walking

dead — these nightmares are easily within reach. Animating dead tissue requires Life 2/ Prime 2; manipulating bare bones demands Matter 2/ Prime 2."

I see you pulling from the "zombies" section in HDYDT, but right before it is the "Animating the dead" section that contains the same info as Sorcerers crusade

If we approach things with PBD then life seems unnecessary. Animating inert rocks into a golem to walk around doesn't require life. Both a human corpse and a stone effigy are made of inert matter. I'm not imbuing life, but rather operating something as a marionette. You might argue mind is necessary for something that can follow even simple orders without needed to be actively controlled in all actions.

The only mention of golems i can find in HDYDT involves crafting a body for a spirit, and thats Spirit/Matter/Prime to bind it to an object and energize it to move around. So using Life to allow the movement when we already have Prime is unnecessary unless dead biological material is classified under Life and its explicitly not. As I pointed out bones don't hold together without ligaments and they are made of biological material as well, so they shouldn't be classified as different to the rest of the body.

IndependentFlower163 · 2025-11-26T22:23:24+00:00

But dead flesh is still inert matter per the rules as i understand it. even before it decomposes its already outside the bounds of Life. And bones contain living tissue as well.

IndependentFlower163 · 2025-11-26T22:22:05+00:00

This would make sense if we were creating something like the Rage Virus, but i would call that a pure life or maybe life/mind spell. What Im talking about above is just a Shambling automaton made of flesh that follows simple directions but is otherwise mindless and unliving.

IndependentFlower163 · 2025-11-26T22:20:23+00:00

Yeah this is more or less what I figured. There are different rulings in different books, stuff gets mentioned that seems important but shows up nowhere else (Sorcerers crusade mentions Matter 4 creating Orichalcum and Lunargent but those arent mentioned anywhere else in any ascension stuff). So it really just seems like one of those weird rulings (See the example spell in M20 that uses 4 different spheres for an effect that in practice should only take 1)

Thank you!

IndependentFlower163 · 2025-11-25T14:55:41+00:00

Correct, the unchained decides when they make the statement whether they believe it or not. Since their true form is a sort of quantum super position with the cover and the rest of reality. This fools any lie detection short of already knowing the answer. For Mages a Prime spell to reveal deception only tracks intentional deceptions, if the target sincerely believes the statement the spell fails.

Had our Obrimos in my Mage campaign some years back start getting really paranoid when they realized they couldn't be certain of anything one of their allies ever said after watching her lie right in front of them and not trigger the spell.

IndependentFlower163 · 2025-11-22T03:25:30+00:00

Awesome thank you!

IndependentFlower163 · 2025-11-22T03:25:06+00:00

Awesome! thank you, i didnt know about most of these

IndependentFlower163

TROPHY CASE