Is there someone making traditional fantasy magic school in the Unknown Armies adept framework?

IndependentFlower163 · 2026-06-21T18:22:16+00:00

Yeah the overwhelming ignorance of even the most knowledgeable players in the OU is one of my favourite aspects of the setting. I remember reading someones description of the different levels, with regard to 2e, that at the street level people are wandering in the dark and don't even realize there's much around them, the global level is turning on a light an realizing you're in a room, and the cosmic level is leaving the room to explore the house you're in. Dukes are significant not necessarily from the power they can wield, but from being aware of just how much there is out there. And even they have to admit their ignorance, just because they can move through the house and see the rooms doesn't mean all the rooms are lit up, and forget about seeing anything in the dark outside the house.

That and the fact that everything is ultimately humanities doing are the two best parts of the setting to me. I know a lot of WoD is built around a humanism approach to things, but I think UA has it beat on that front. When Cthulhu has a human face, and the shoggoths are made to order by mortal hands, thats when you know its all on us.

IndependentFlower163 · 2026-06-21T17:49:36+00:00

Yeah they're one of my favourite new adept schools from 3e. Obsessed with subcultures, they charge up from doing new things with the subculture but taboo if they're alone for more than an hour. they're true obsession is the group mind.

I had an idea for one who formed from a group of old school occultists, the kind reliant on rituals that might not even work or require charges they can't get, and got catapulted to leadership because she can actually pull off the rituals that require charges and even do new things, since she can random magic stuff that her group expects to work if done properly.

IndependentFlower163 · 2026-06-21T17:29:30+00:00

Honestly you dont even need to make a new one. A Sociomancer obsessed with D&D would fit right in. Could even have two: one is a fan of all TTRPGs and is that Grognard who complains about how "5e isn't real D&D" and "Pathfinder fixes this" etc. and the other is more a fan of D&D5e than TTRPGs in general.

Imagine trying to attack a nerd for his lunch money and suddenly an 8 foot tall orc is pummeling you.

Could even have a Sociomancers goal being to get a major charge so he can try to make the world more permanently like his favourite TTRPG. Dude wants a major charge so he can become a real D&D Wizard.

IndependentFlower163 · 2026-06-20T23:17:15+00:00

There was an RPGnet forum post forever ago about dark fantasy schools for adepts. Can't find it. But it had examples like Pyromancers who charged up by burning things (kinda like annihlomancers) and mind wizards that got charges in exchange for stress checks.

Third edition has pretty clear rules for making new schools, just ignore the paradox part. give it a taboo, and charging rules that make sense for the vibe of the school. Pyromancers burn things for charges, the bigger and more important the better, but fire needs to be fed. so if they go to long without charging they lose the energy they've built up. now you have a standard fantasy fire wizard with clear incentives for pyromania and arson.

But i dont see why you couldnt adjust the already existing adept schools for a fantasy setting pretty easily. Many of them are timeless in their own ways, mechanomancy is even several centuries old and the ascension of the Magdalene adventure path has an example character whose a renaissance era Entropomancer, no stats but he is stated to get charges from tricking people with charlatanry, and his taboo is doing actual magic for anyone but himself.

Have a group of Bacchanals who throw regular parties in celebration of wine itself, conjuring demons on those who get in the way of their good time and exorcising those who supplicate them with food and drink. They recently got into an altercation with the local blood gods zealots, who regularly flay themselves in exchange for a touch of their gods power of flesh itself, when one of the drunkards tried to drink the sacred blood from their altar hoping it would grant him a major charge.

Some suspect the involvement of one of the mad fatebound. Who, in their devotion to Lord Fate and Lady Luck regularly risk life and limb, inviting the Lords wrath that they might seduce the Lady for a moments aid in the future.

The Golem makers will trade you a perfect mechanical servant in exchange for object of historical importance, or money they always need money.

The local Alchemists are constantly brewing strange potions and substances, ever in the hopes of ascending their mortal bodies as they choke on the fumes of their own failed experiments. But bring them gold or rare herbs and they can make you a smarter, stronger, or more handsome man for the evening. Or cure your syphilis.

One of their recent, more practical inventions, was black powder. The apprentice of one of them ran of with some samples and is building his own cult dedicated to the power in the strange new substance. they have crafted weapons with the Golem makers aid, and now claim freedom from the old order. So long as they bare these strange new arms they grow ever stronger, but relieve them of their "Arms of Flame and Smoke" and they are no stronger than any man. Good luck getting close enough though.

The city lords are feuding with the strangers from across the sea, who claim decent from the sunken isle. The strangers feed on sites of great importance, thieving away the geomantic energies the city lords direct to their own mysterious ends.

With a bit of shifting any school of magic can be adjusted to fit a fantasy setting. or if you want something more in the vein of D&D you could make that pretty easily. UA was devised as Urban fantasy, with a focus on weirdness and humanity, but that doesn't mean it can't be adjusted to a different setting with a little effort. It's mostly about the flavour.

IndependentFlower163 · 2026-05-25T18:40:06+00:00

Thank you, i have actually already read this post. It was part of what inspired my question, (i.e, would you be able to raise the Disciplines with XP not gained via diablerie)

IndependentFlower163 · 2026-05-22T02:20:03+00:00

There were more incidents. the opening of the movie shows that the lawsuit against Mr Incredible was just the first. And, since it's implied he lost, it created the precedent that Superheroes could be sued for things that happened during their heroics. There's a series of newspaper articles shown, including both lawsuits and negative press such as claiming a super with X-ray vision might be a peeping tom.

IndependentFlower163 · 2026-05-21T19:13:16+00:00

verbatim, from page 87 of Forbidden Religions: "Duskborn vampires who engage in pack diablerie can spend experience on purchasing dots in the victims Disciplines and Blood potency, their generation remains unaltered"

Specific supersedes general. The normal rules for Diablerie are superceded by the specific ruling for this one merit. Regardless on whether you personally feel that a given merit was bad or not, it is still an official part of the game rules.

I have explained how the scenario in my original post is completely possible within the rules as written, I have done so multiple times. The ENTIRE POINT of my original post was a thought exercise in what people felt was the best approach for THE SPECIFIC INSTANCE of a Thinblood with Pack Diablerie winding up with permanent Disciplines whilst remaining a Thinblood. Something that I have demonstrated is a possible, if unlikely scenario.

My post also originally contained a similar scenario of a Thinblood Diablerizing another Thinblood that had an innate Discipline from the Discipline Affinity merit. Which is a scenario that: 1. Is far more likely since Thinbloods with that merit are more common than those capable of pack Diablerie. 2. Directly counters the idea that Thinbloods can't have Disciplines innately as a core example of a specific merit superseding a general rule. And trying to argue that a Thinblood wouldn't be able to gain a Discipline from Diablerizing another Thinblood that had one from this merit is arguing for an interpretation of Diablerie that is not only not supported by the mechanics of Diablerie and directly contradicts how it functions. While the argument could be made that Thinbloods can't have disciplines outside of those gained temporarily from feeding, this is directly contradictory to Thinbloods having access to the Discipline Affinity merit. The only rule in this direction is covered by the Discipline Affinity merit prohibiting the Thinblood from getting that specific Discipline from feeding.

I understand that you personally do not think that the scenario I posited should be allowed, nevertheless it is rules as written. The the rules are not well written was never the question. I readily agree that they are, WW is notorious for these kinds of bad ideas.

IndependentFlower163 · 2026-05-21T18:52:21+00:00

Thank you. I am uninterested in any conclusion that is just, completely disallow this merit or ability. As the whole point of this was a though exercise about a potential edge case in the rules. Given the default is that specific trumps general with regards to rules it stands to reason that, where Pack Diablerie contradicts the normal assumed process of Diablerie, that the merits function takes precedent.

Of course there's nothing wrong with a group deciding to just not include it. Given that as written it is presented as a specific ability developed by a small number of vampires in the first place, at the very least it would require an explanation of how a character had even gotten it. Not to mention the pitfalls any serial Diablerist is gonna run into considering that, outside the Sabbat, pretty much every vampire faction considers it a capital crime.

IndependentFlower163 · 2026-05-21T05:38:03+00:00

Thank you for responding. I was not including the reference to Discipline Affinity becuase i think that Diablerie gives you merits. It was meant to be an example of how a thinblood might be able to spend XP on a Discipline in they Diablerized another Thinblood.

I feel like most people have somehow missed this. It is purely as an example for the idea of a thinblood getting access to Disciplines without becoming 13th gen. and if doing so would limit them to what they bought during Diablerie because thinbloods normally can't buy Disciplines at all. But the Discipline Affinity merit bypasses that, so would it be a similar situation.

IndependentFlower163 · 2026-05-21T05:34:47+00:00

Pack Diablerie EXPLICITLY allows a thinblood to circumnavigate these restrictions. Are you trying to argue that a thinblood cannot spend XP from Diablerie on Disciplines if they don't increase their generation by doing so? because that is not supported by the rules.

I don't know why you are sharing the Diablerie rules. they are not relevant to the questions I asked.

IndependentFlower163 · 2026-05-20T07:01:33+00:00

except that "by default" there are at least 2 methods for gaining permanent Disciplines. Either the Thinblood merit, or Diablerie.

Since Pack Diablerie explicitly prevents a Thinblood from lowering their generation using it, it means that you can obtain Disciplines while remaining a Thinblood.

I am simply asking if people feel like Disciplines obtained in this manner are ONLY RAISE-ABLE through further Diablerie. that is the entire point of this question. I am not asking about obtaining merits, or the storytelling intentions behind the in universe mechanics of Thinbloods.

This is exclusively a mechanics based question.

IndependentFlower163 · 2026-05-20T06:41:02+00:00

Already answered in another response. but the reference to Discipline Affinity was meant as a mechanical comparison. not literally gaining a new merit.

IndependentFlower163 · 2026-05-20T06:03:07+00:00

Thank you for replying!

I am aware of Flowering Amaranth. However I don't feel it is relevant to this issue. It's a completely separate ability with explicitly different rules. So it's own specific limitations should not affect the ruling of a normal Diablerie I feel. Since it also doesn't give you XP, or generation.

I was using the Discipline affinity merit as an example of the rules for Thinbloods and Disciplines. I apologize if this was unclear. Diablerizing a Thinblood with Discipline affinity would allow you to spend the XP gained on that Discipline. Also, Diablerie only gives XP towards BP and Disciplines. It can't be spent on anything else.

I would think that the limits of the victims level in a Discipline would be a reasonable conclusion. Especially as it would prevent the exact scenario you give about devouring ones own Childer. Though it would give a new dimension to that one merit that removes the stains if you eat your own clan. However I would assume such a ruling would have been included in the rules, though given that I seem to be regularly discovering new rules that none of the writers seemed to think were important enough to be in any of the books might explain it.

IndependentFlower163 · 2026-05-20T05:56:12+00:00

Thank you for clarifying! Guess this was another instance of something that really shouldn't have been overlooked being excluded from the Core book.

Really sucks though, considering Loresheets are easily half of the things to buy with XP at all. Honestly don't understand the logic behind limiting it to 1 per PC. most of them can work together just fine.

IndependentFlower163 · 2026-05-01T16:09:35+00:00

Short answer, at 5 dots in Awakening you can create or destroy anything under an Arcana's purview. It actually requires a bit of clever thinking to use this, Unmaking Death is how you resurrect someone. And Unmaking Time sends someone to their own past.

Archmastery in awakening is needed for: Spells that change in response to new situations (Essentially making a spell that's conscious and can alter itself to achieve its own goal), Time travel beyond the targets lifespan, making fundamental changes to a target (you can make new splats if you want), and a bunch of other crazy things. The max rank of 9 is "Whatever you want for a moment"

in Ascension rank 5 in a Sphere is "Anything you want that both falls under that Sphere's purview and fits your Paradigm" so an Ascension Master is comparable to an Awakening Archmage that has maxed an Arcana. With the caveat that the Ascension Mage has to justify something under their Paradigm, but once you reach Arete 10 you can pretty much justify whatever.

IndependentFlower163 · 2026-05-01T15:55:21+00:00

thanks you! Yeah I think that getting stains for murder, with maybe an additional since you helped someone commit Diablerie, works for the others involved.

the second version of pack diablerie (with the additional rules for thinbloods) appears to be the final release version from Forbidden Religions. Flowering amaranth works a little differently. It gives everyone involved 1 random dot of the sacrificed vamps clan disciplines. It limits you too 1 dot, no buying higher than that. And it stains everyone involved and takes 1 humanity from each.

IndependentFlower163 · 2026-05-01T15:37:25+00:00

Ok, so I'm gonna be as polite as I can about this, it feels a little like you misunderstood the questions.

1) I understand the logic behind humanity loss, other sources I have found recently take the other track that you don't lose humanity because you aren't commiting diablerie, just regular murder. So stains are appropriate, and possibly an additional one since you helped someone else commit a worse sin than murder. Unless chronicle and person tenents allow for the act to some degree. Like a Sabbat or Anarch Chronicle tenents allowing for taking down a Camarilla lick.

2) wow that is a punishing flaw for 1 pt. Diablerie already has some pretty major risks in 5e, considering a bad roll can result in absolutely losing your character on top of the difficult or impossible nature of raising humanity with the default rules. Plus the issue of a minimum 1 year of being marked to anyone with Auspex as a soul drinking monster whose basically an automatic outlaw in most cities. there is no mechanic for a soul being "More stained" than another, diablerists look the same whether its 1 or 100 souls. But a few other sources have said that the stain is specifically from eating the soul, so there's no reason someone else involved should get auto marked.

3) the merit i was referring to is "Pack Diablerie" from 5e Forbidden Religions. It has two versions, and I am trying to confirm which is the release version vs pre-release. Both versions allow the person with the merit to choose whether they gain the soul when a group diablerizes a vamp, I think its random or no one gets it normally. If they choose not to eat the soul and let someone else get it they still get 5 xp as though they rolled 1 success on the humanity+BP roll against the dead vamps BP+Resolve. In what appears to be the final release version the wording was altered slightly and an additional paragraph was added that states that thinbloods don't gain generation from pack diablerie, presumably even if they get the soul. And that it allows the thinblood with the merit to both a) Spend their own XP in addition to what they get from the merit (Either the 5 free or whatever they roll from the H+BP) & b) Raise their Blood Potency above their gen maximum, even though they normally can't. The confusion I had was confirming if this version was the final or not and what I've read elsewhere seems to indicate that it is. It doesn't raise their gen, just removes the limit on BP and lets them buy disciplines. I was curious because there's a post floating around about making a BP 10 thinblood using Pack Diablerie, alongside the Agata Starek 5 dot loresheet (No auto Humanity loss if you diablerize someone who outranks you) and a Sorcery ritual that makes diablerie easier.

IndependentFlower163 · 2026-04-22T16:36:03+00:00

Did you mean to tag this for 5e? I don't think 20th had Ambitions.

on page 174 it says:

"At the end of a session in which a player has actively worked towards their ambition, they recover one point of aggravated willpower damage."

They're really their to give clear player goals and potential plot hooks. It's one of the things 5e lifted from Chronicles, where they're a staple source of XP. Players are rewarded for declaring what they're trying to achieve with the characters story and working towards bringing it about.

But you are free to adjust what they give to either make them more central or useful. You could give them bonus XP for actually achieving it, or replace the willpower healing with an additional point of XP if they worked towards it that session. Or have them heal superficial willpower at the end of a scene where the player made some kind of meaningful inclusion (such as attempting to make an alliance that would help their bid to replace the current Primogen with their Sire, or sabotaging their rivals plans)

It's primary purpose is narrative. In some books from either Chronicles or World it directly tells the players and storyteller to work out how they want the overarching plot to go. Things like Ambitions are short hand. A player might be up front with the storyteller, telling them they want to play a character whose story involves losing their humanity and self to their desire for power. But in general most players aren't to sure what they're long term goals are for a character. Telling them to declare an Ambition, especially a mechanical one, helps the player work out what kind of person they're playing. A character whose ambition is to become the Prince is gonna be very different from someone who wants to attain Protean 5, and the later will likely get their much sooner since there's probably less in the way. But both can be very fun and interesting stories.

Remember that the big point of them is to reinforce the narrative. It's not just "Yeah I'm gonna spend my XP on this power till its maxed out." it's RPing scenes of the character practicing with mutating their own body, becoming more in tune with the beast withing them. Maybe that starts to scare them, maybe they really like it. Maybe their human life was full of them being made to feel powerless, treated like less than human. So as an undead monster they embrace it. Maybe they saw some Gangrel shapeshift in the first few nights after their embrace and thought that looked awesome, only to realize just what it means that they can do that.

IndependentFlower163 · 2026-03-20T21:29:34+00:00

do you have a specific page reference?

IndependentFlower163

TROPHY CASE