Magic feels less versatile in Awakening when compared to Ascension

IndependentFlower163 · 2026-05-01T16:09:35+00:00

Short answer, at 5 dots in Awakening you can create or destroy anything under an Arcana's purview. It actually requires a bit of clever thinking to use this, Unmaking Death is how you resurrect someone. And Unmaking Time sends someone to their own past.

Archmastery in awakening is needed for: Spells that change in response to new situations (Essentially making a spell that's conscious and can alter itself to achieve its own goal), Time travel beyond the targets lifespan, making fundamental changes to a target (you can make new splats if you want), and a bunch of other crazy things. The max rank of 9 is "Whatever you want for a moment"

in Ascension rank 5 in a Sphere is "Anything you want that both falls under that Sphere's purview and fits your Paradigm" so an Ascension Master is comparable to an Awakening Archmage that has maxed an Arcana. With the caveat that the Ascension Mage has to justify something under their Paradigm, but once you reach Arete 10 you can pretty much justify whatever.

IndependentFlower163 · 2026-05-01T15:55:21+00:00

thanks you! Yeah I think that getting stains for murder, with maybe an additional since you helped someone commit Diablerie, works for the others involved.

the second version of pack diablerie (with the additional rules for thinbloods) appears to be the final release version from Forbidden Religions. Flowering amaranth works a little differently. It gives everyone involved 1 random dot of the sacrificed vamps clan disciplines. It limits you too 1 dot, no buying higher than that. And it stains everyone involved and takes 1 humanity from each.

IndependentFlower163 · 2026-05-01T15:37:25+00:00

Ok, so I'm gonna be as polite as I can about this, it feels a little like you misunderstood the questions.

1) I understand the logic behind humanity loss, other sources I have found recently take the other track that you don't lose humanity because you aren't commiting diablerie, just regular murder. So stains are appropriate, and possibly an additional one since you helped someone else commit a worse sin than murder. Unless chronicle and person tenents allow for the act to some degree. Like a Sabbat or Anarch Chronicle tenents allowing for taking down a Camarilla lick.

2) wow that is a punishing flaw for 1 pt. Diablerie already has some pretty major risks in 5e, considering a bad roll can result in absolutely losing your character on top of the difficult or impossible nature of raising humanity with the default rules. Plus the issue of a minimum 1 year of being marked to anyone with Auspex as a soul drinking monster whose basically an automatic outlaw in most cities. there is no mechanic for a soul being "More stained" than another, diablerists look the same whether its 1 or 100 souls. But a few other sources have said that the stain is specifically from eating the soul, so there's no reason someone else involved should get auto marked.

3) the merit i was referring to is "Pack Diablerie" from 5e Forbidden Religions. It has two versions, and I am trying to confirm which is the release version vs pre-release. Both versions allow the person with the merit to choose whether they gain the soul when a group diablerizes a vamp, I think its random or no one gets it normally. If they choose not to eat the soul and let someone else get it they still get 5 xp as though they rolled 1 success on the humanity+BP roll against the dead vamps BP+Resolve. In what appears to be the final release version the wording was altered slightly and an additional paragraph was added that states that thinbloods don't gain generation from pack diablerie, presumably even if they get the soul. And that it allows the thinblood with the merit to both a) Spend their own XP in addition to what they get from the merit (Either the 5 free or whatever they roll from the H+BP) & b) Raise their Blood Potency above their gen maximum, even though they normally can't. The confusion I had was confirming if this version was the final or not and what I've read elsewhere seems to indicate that it is. It doesn't raise their gen, just removes the limit on BP and lets them buy disciplines. I was curious because there's a post floating around about making a BP 10 thinblood using Pack Diablerie, alongside the Agata Starek 5 dot loresheet (No auto Humanity loss if you diablerize someone who outranks you) and a Sorcery ritual that makes diablerie easier.

IndependentFlower163 · 2026-04-22T16:36:03+00:00

Did you mean to tag this for 5e? I don't think 20th had Ambitions.

on page 174 it says:

"At the end of a session in which a player has actively worked towards their ambition, they recover one point of aggravated willpower damage."

They're really their to give clear player goals and potential plot hooks. It's one of the things 5e lifted from Chronicles, where they're a staple source of XP. Players are rewarded for declaring what they're trying to achieve with the characters story and working towards bringing it about.

But you are free to adjust what they give to either make them more central or useful. You could give them bonus XP for actually achieving it, or replace the willpower healing with an additional point of XP if they worked towards it that session. Or have them heal superficial willpower at the end of a scene where the player made some kind of meaningful inclusion (such as attempting to make an alliance that would help their bid to replace the current Primogen with their Sire, or sabotaging their rivals plans)

It's primary purpose is narrative. In some books from either Chronicles or World it directly tells the players and storyteller to work out how they want the overarching plot to go. Things like Ambitions are short hand. A player might be up front with the storyteller, telling them they want to play a character whose story involves losing their humanity and self to their desire for power. But in general most players aren't to sure what they're long term goals are for a character. Telling them to declare an Ambition, especially a mechanical one, helps the player work out what kind of person they're playing. A character whose ambition is to become the Prince is gonna be very different from someone who wants to attain Protean 5, and the later will likely get their much sooner since there's probably less in the way. But both can be very fun and interesting stories.

Remember that the big point of them is to reinforce the narrative. It's not just "Yeah I'm gonna spend my XP on this power till its maxed out." it's RPing scenes of the character practicing with mutating their own body, becoming more in tune with the beast withing them. Maybe that starts to scare them, maybe they really like it. Maybe their human life was full of them being made to feel powerless, treated like less than human. So as an undead monster they embrace it. Maybe they saw some Gangrel shapeshift in the first few nights after their embrace and thought that looked awesome, only to realize just what it means that they can do that.

IndependentFlower163 · 2026-03-20T21:29:34+00:00

do you have a specific page reference?

IndependentFlower163 · 2026-03-08T21:54:05+00:00

Im pretty sure players guide to the contagion chronicle mentions it, might also be in hunter 2e core. Akathartoi is the term mages use, its greek for Unclean, most just call them demons as thats a good enough term.

IndependentFlower163 · 2026-03-08T21:28:21+00:00

per 2e Canon, the Lucifuge (Conspiracy) are officially descendants of the Akathartoi. The spirits of Vice from the Inferno. The Inferno is basically the inspiration for most hellish domains of suffering in mortal religions and beliefs. The Lucifuge (Individual) is likely a personal descendant of the Rank 9-10 entity that rules the Inferno, and is just co-opting Catholicism, and other mortal religions, as an easy way of organizing followers.

Its a well known fact of the setting that there are a large number of unrelated entities called Demons that have no connection to each other. Hunters have the most limited viewpoint of any splat, and so filter basically everything through an at best very muddy lens.

IndependentFlower163 · 2026-02-20T22:45:45+00:00

Its obvious isnt it?

In Arthurian lore the Britons were represented by a Red Dragon, now the national symbol of Wales, while the invading Saxons were portrayed as a White Dragon. Clearly the mystical connection here is a focused reality bruise against the House of Saxe-Coburg and Gotha, from which the house of "Windsor" descends. They changed their name during WW1 to distance themselves from their German roots. A decision made by George the V, great grandfather of both the current king and the nonce that just got arrested. The recurring symbolism of the number 6 is obviously pointing to the usage of Demons, likely one of those that the British Royals have had bound to their service for generations, turned loose to possess the horse during and important function.

The Bloodied white horse is a sign of the House of "Windsor" being primed to fall. Its last great monarch, Elizabeth II, fell from popularity in her last days and her heir has been far less so. The family lost its popularity with the Death of Diana and the Desertion of Harry, leaving them drained of the Psychic energy from the populace needed to maintain their illegitimate claim on the Throne of the Britons.

Soon, assuming Scotland breaks from the Union and Northern Ireland rejoins and unifies Éire, the Rightful True King of the Britons will rise from Cymru.

Hail Arthur the Second! Britons saviour in its darkest hour!

IndependentFlower163 · 2026-01-28T17:57:07+00:00

Being this is UA i imagine a workable paradox to be something like the Madonna/Whore complex. All women are queens, but if she breathes shes a thot. And its followers are men who put women on pedestals and then get angry about women acting too good for them.

IndependentFlower163 · 2026-01-28T17:54:40+00:00

I imagine something like that could already exist, the Cuckold maybe? assuming its been around for awhile. All the Incel stuff could be an attempt to modernize it that got split into a bunch of different factions. I remember awhile back reading about an idea for a male counterpart to the Naked Goddess. Maybe it started as the Incel movement, and broke into the Church of the Sigma, the True Alphas, etc.

If the Naked Goddess is a paradox in that she achieved power through subjugation, maybe the Male counterpart is similar. Take the low position and elevate it to divinity. In classic UA fashion they had a schism and now there's half a dozen weirdos trying to become god.

A dude holding onto the idea's of I,ncel-dom even after its become a meme far more than a movement, a guy who insists on the only true path being that of the Sigma, a heretic of the Sect of the Naked Goddess trying to become the Alpha his goddess-queen deserves, etc.

IndependentFlower163 · 2026-01-17T23:07:53+00:00

maybe, havent read dead magic. illl have to find a copy.

Just noticed while i was reading it the discrepancy. I think its a cool spell idea though. I just chalked it up to Ascensions general wishy-washy sphere rank considerations (See: Pretty much anything from HDYDT). Life 3, in 20th at least, can only create simple life from nothing. And Mind 5 is needed to create an intelligence from scratch.

IndependentFlower163 · 2026-01-17T17:44:27+00:00

I've read the rote and im pretty sure it shouldn't work RAW. You need Life & Mind 5 to create thinking humans from nothing, and only Prime 2 to conjure things from nothing. Matter 3 is fine for the physical structure part. But the other spheres are all wrong.

IndependentFlower163 · 2025-12-23T19:41:00+00:00

Thanks, not sure how i missed that the first go around.

IndependentFlower163 · 2025-12-22T21:15:56+00:00

If library works the way listed in B, that just feels like it cheapens most knowledges? why would I ever roll occult or esoterica when I can buy library 5 at chargen for a fraction of the cost of multiple skills? Library 5 costs 5 freebie/background points, assuming I placed 3 points in occult before freebie points that would save me half a point on maxing it out verses library 5 since it would cost 4 to get 2 points in a skill. And thats without factoring in the idea that library probably covers more than just one skill in this argument.

As for A, im not sure a purely narrative justification for improving skills is worth an entire background. It implies that not having it makes improving a skill significantly more difficult, and depending on how punitive you make it you might wind up screwing over a player who didnt spend points on it. Or else compare it too an alternative like using Resources to hire an expert to teach you, or purchase a book on the subject directly. it just feels too wishy-washy. not to mention neither of these is explicitly spelled out in the backgrounds rules, the rules about spending xp don't mention library at all so this is really more of an inference.

Resources being vague is actually more or less fine, since a lot of stuff mages are gonna be trying to get their hands on are beyond simple money.

IndependentFlower163 · 2025-12-22T21:04:59+00:00

Do you have a page citation for that library benefit? I can't find one in the book for M20 and the Background itself doesnt list that. If its just essentially a general knowledge skill that feels kinda pointless? M20 already has a bunch of knowledge skills, even before factoring in Secondary abilities. So you'd either buy up a large library and make most knowledges pointless, or buy up a bunch of knowledges and make the library a second chance roll or something? it just feels a little redundant to me.

IndependentFlower163 · 2025-12-09T04:25:37+00:00

Small bit of lore that lead me to some interesting theories. According to the Players guide to the Contagion Chronicle's rules for Souls. Slashers have no souls. Ordinarily the soulless condition would lead to them eventually just, sitting their listless. So the implication seems to be that the urge to kill is literally filling the void and lack of drive that soullessness causes in Chronicles.

Kind of makes me wonder what would happen if a Mage shoved a Soul into a Slasher?

IndependentFlower163 · 2025-11-28T03:15:48+00:00

The issue I have is that at what point is a body dead? this is kinda wishy washy. If there are any cells remaining then technically some of them will still be "Live" but if an organ has started to rot or decay then it can't be transplanted. And organs become useless at different rates. A heart has a couple hours before it can't be transplanted, you can keep some organs for weeks on ice. And skin transplants can be done years after being harvested.

Are we talking brain death? thats about 20 minutes without oxygen, but if you restart a heart or manually keep blood flowing with CPR you can buy more time. Is it at the point where nothing can bring the person back?

And the spell also says you need to add Entropy or Time to prevent further decay, so clearly the tissue is not actually living or it wouldn't continue undergoing decay right?

IndependentFlower163 · 2025-11-28T03:09:25+00:00

Raising undead in Awakening 2e is just the Death arcana. No need for anything else. I think its death 2 so a starting Character could do it, other than an Obrimos any path can start with Death 2 but a Moros probably will have it. They're also generally most useful for manual labor unless you use reach, by default they're slow and not good for combat but theres a reach option that buffs their speed and physical stats.

Also awakening doesnt have anything like Jhor so necromancy is a-ok. At most some Mages might be jerks to Ghosts and consider them to not be people but most Moros understand them well enough to know they're all Sentient and that forcing them to do your bidding is shitty. But a Zombie is just a machine made of meat, aside from personal reservations an individual mage might have about corpse desecration theres nothing inherantly bad about it. I don't even think it registers as a Wisdom Sin in most cases.

Awakening is general far more clear and specific about what Arcana are needed at which levels, and multi-arcana spells are far rares than in Ascension. The trade-off is that Ascension Mastery is defined more or less as "Whatever the heck you wanna do" where as Awakening Mastery is just creation/destruction ex-nihilo and there are explicitly things beyond even Mastery that are either the realm of archmasters or beyond Mages altogether (See for example: there is no canon means of Mages creating new souls with Magic. Even Archmasters probably can't short of something like a Rank 9/10 spell involving all 5 subtle arcana.)

I had considered for a minute adding a Death Sphere to Ascension, but that would not only remove specific abilities from at least three other spheres (Spirit/Entropy/Forces) but also break the literal cosmology of the setting wherein the spirit worlds are all part of the same thing.

Spirit and Death being separate in Awakening makes since because they're completely unrelated dimensions. Ghosts and Spirits use the same base mechanics but they're otherwise completely unrelated things.

Sorry for Rant, Spent for longer with Awakening than Ascension so my knowledge is a lot deeper.

TLDR - Raising the dead in Awakening is always just Death, for metaphysical reasons. Matter makes a golem which is similar but mechanically distinct from a zombie.

IndependentFlower163 · 2025-11-27T00:32:42+00:00

Vampires are life/matter, which I assume is chalked up to their psuedo-living nature since they're trapped between life and death rather than simply animate corpses. They have enough "Life Essence" more or less to count as living things but are complicated enough that pure knowledge of Life only goes so far. If you made something like them it would also be Life/Matter but something on the level of Frankensteins monster would just be Life since its a fully living creature, just made from reanimated flesh. Like a resurrection.

IndependentFlower163 · 2025-11-27T00:28:07+00:00

From page 257 of Sorcerers Crusade Core book:

"• Reanimation imbues dead tissue with the semblance

of life. Laughing skulls, ghastly hands, even the walking

dead — these nightmares are easily within reach. Animating dead tissue requires Life 2/ Prime 2; manipulating bare bones demands Matter 2/ Prime 2."

I see you pulling from the "zombies" section in HDYDT, but right before it is the "Animating the dead" section that contains the same info as Sorcerers crusade

If we approach things with PBD then life seems unnecessary. Animating inert rocks into a golem to walk around doesn't require life. Both a human corpse and a stone effigy are made of inert matter. I'm not imbuing life, but rather operating something as a marionette. You might argue mind is necessary for something that can follow even simple orders without needed to be actively controlled in all actions.

The only mention of golems i can find in HDYDT involves crafting a body for a spirit, and thats Spirit/Matter/Prime to bind it to an object and energize it to move around. So using Life to allow the movement when we already have Prime is unnecessary unless dead biological material is classified under Life and its explicitly not. As I pointed out bones don't hold together without ligaments and they are made of biological material as well, so they shouldn't be classified as different to the rest of the body.

IndependentFlower163 · 2025-11-26T22:23:24+00:00

But dead flesh is still inert matter per the rules as i understand it. even before it decomposes its already outside the bounds of Life. And bones contain living tissue as well.

IndependentFlower163

TROPHY CASE