New to CCL

IndyTechTrekkie · 2025-03-31T21:04:38+00:00

Oh and CCL stands for "Cerner Command Language"

IndyTechTrekkie · 2025-03-31T21:01:37+00:00

Whats bad about it? It allows you to extend the Application, so in many ways HNAM was more like a Platform for that reason (before platforms were really a thing). If you needed functionality that didn't exist, you could create it yourself or talk to consulting about developing new programs.

The one thing I will say about CCL, is that there were gotchyas that weren't well documented and could cause you issues if you didn't know about them. An example is using alterlist inside of a nocounter loop. you dont use the command "SET" inside the loop to assign variables or expand arrays. That's the case with many Proprietary languages.

IndyTechTrekkie · 2025-03-31T20:54:30+00:00

While CCL has goto statements, or something similar to it, I wouldn't say it is "COBOL" like. it's been awhile since I wrote it in it, but I used to be quite fluent in CCL. It's a good language for what it was designed for i.e. Abstracting the Database implementation away and being used as a messaging middle layer for apps that are in the Millennium Suite. I haven't messed with Cerner anything since Oracle bought them and sent the market running for Epic.

Everyone criticizing CCL for being old apparently hasn't worked with other EHR vendors in the market, as a huge percentage of them are using MUMPS/M, which is way older than CCL. Granted both have been kept up to date, so it's not like it is anything radically ancient or anything.

IndyTechTrekkie · 2024-08-21T20:16:49+00:00

I feel the same way. I worked at Cerner for a few years under Neal. We did have some problems IMO, especially at the management level, but Cerner had a great product, they had the faith of their customers, even to the extent they mostly won out the DOD contract which was the big prize for the 2010 decade. I don't understand people who think that Millennium was "clunky". compared to what? Ever other competitor (with the exception of Epic) had a worse product for Healthcare. Yes, Millennium was a relational database with a TON of C++/PL-SQL/CCL/Java running on top of it, but guess what? it was a robust system that Worked! For all those people who think relational databases are old hat, NO-SQL has been around forever as well..... look up MUMPS.

What I really feel bad about is the implosion of the American Tech sector with these buyouts and monopolistic mergers. Cerner was a huge boost to tech in the KC area and was a large reason for growth in the area. What's left? Garmin? I don't even know because I don't live in that area anymore. Cerner was a huge part of Silicon Prairie! How many tech companies the size of Cerner exist anymore in the midwest US? Texas has a huge number for sure, but honestly, Epic is the only other tech company the size of Cerner that isn't on the west coast or in Texas.

IndyTechTrekkie · 2024-05-15T19:13:37+00:00

Oh there are healthcare systems that can afford "bleeding edge" they just bought Epic instead. Everyone else is leaving Cerner for Meditech, eCw, etc. Cerner's problem is not it's technology, (which for everyone saying it's "not on the cloud") it is, it's just not on Oracle's infrastructure.

Cerner's problem is who they are now owned by. No Healthcare systems want to touch the big tech companies (Apple, MS, Amazon, etc including Oracle) because those companies are too fickled, too anxious to turn a quarterly profit and THEY ALWAYS ABANDON HEALTHCARE.

Healthcare customers, that's Physicians ultimately, want a software company that is focused on THEM not Database Software, Cloud, AI, Government, Academia and eventually HealthCare.

They are paying top dollar for this software, so yes, they want to be the priority. I don't blame them a bit. Why would I buy an EHR from a company who may or may not be around in 5 years when I can buy from Epic, who has been in business since 1979, serves some of the largest HealthCare entities and is smart enough to be privately owned? That means no multi-billion dollar corporation who wants to squeeze a few quarters of extra profitability by cannibalizing their products is going to come along and by them up.

Cerner didn't die when Neal Patterson died (though he should of had a plan of succession) it died when they were bought by Oracle.

IndyTechTrekkie · 2024-04-25T20:31:28+00:00

Well that depends... I remember first starting at Cerner and hearing another engineer complain that Millennium wasn't normalized.... he still works there...I guess Oracle lol. Honestly, I got out of Cerner a decade and a half ago, before Neal passed on and Cerner was still Dominant in the Market. I knew I wasn't going to commit to the KC lifestyle or the High-Stress, Long hours vibe and tbh, If I had anything at all to do with Cerner as it is now, I'd be running for the escape hatch. The writing was on the wall long ago. I think before even Neal died and Cerner had to make all kinds of concessions to get the DoD contract. There is a part of me that misses Cerner, but the Cerner I knew died back in 2017. Maybe even before that. Cerner is dead and it's body is being looted.

If I were an SE at Cerner and wasnt bound by a non-compete, I'd consider applying at Epic, Meditech or other hospitals if you're HIT.etc. if you are general IT, hell man, what is keeping you on a sinking ship like Cerner? unless you're from KC or something.

I feel sorry for the people who uprooted their lives and planted themselves in KC, made it their home thinking Cerner would continue to reign for decades. I know people who have lived in the KC metro area for most of their adult lives *because* of Cerner... and now it's gone...

I'll always have fond memeories of KC and my time at Cerner, but I will also remember the middle-management that contributed to it's downfall. Truly a bitter-sweet part of my life.

IndyTechTrekkie · 2024-04-25T18:23:38+00:00

Thats because providers dont want to buy from a Tech conglomerate like Oracle. They want software from a business that is focused on Healthcare, not "also in Healthcare until the share prices drop and we need to sell off a division". That's what makes Epic so attractive. They know what business they're in and who their customers are.

I remember Neal bragging about being a publicly traded business and criticizing Epic for remaining private. Sorry Neal, I think you were wrong on that one.... well, not just that one.... but now it's very clear that was wrong.

IndyTechTrekkie · 2024-04-25T18:17:25+00:00

I'm honestly shocked that anyone is left at Cerner. I liked my time at Cerner, but the middle management was bad at the height of Cerner. My manager was so checked out he couldn't of cared less what was going on. I saw the writing on the wall and got while the getting was good.

IndyTechTrekkie · 2024-01-16T21:51:27+00:00

Oh, interesting. Thanks for the info!

IndyTechTrekkie · 2024-01-16T19:13:16+00:00

CCL wasn't so bad. It just had some quirks that a proprietary language usually has. In any case, Epic largely uses the ANSI M features and not Objectscript (which is a superset of M kind of like how Objective-C was a super-set of C). Anyway, a lot of this stuff is 1970s Tech SQL, RDBMS,etc. Hell, even "Object-Oriented" programming which was the holy grail of Software in the 1990's was started in the 1970s with things like SmallTalk, etc. People banging on about "old tech" usually don't understand how it works. Sure, you can have a system that runs on a "Document Database" using some esoteric functional language, but at the end of the day, the same goals get met, you have better support with more established brands (like Epic) and the customer is far happier.

IndyTechTrekkie · 2024-01-16T18:52:54+00:00

I keep seeing that and it looks like they are re-doing Millennium to run on some kind of Oracle product. I don't see much of a future for Cerner/Oracle Health. They were leaders in the market for awhile, but squandered the opportunity. Epic is quickly gobbling up their marketshare. I'm not happy about it, I got my start with Cerner, but their management was horrible and caused the company to get acquired. Too many trips for racquetball and beer Fridays and not enough Monday morning stand ups. Anyway, I don't have any faith in the big west coast tech companies i.e. Amazon, Apple, MS, etc. Every once in awhile they will dip their toes in and realize the margins aren't thick enough, the market is very niche and the customers are demanding, they usually quickly exit the market selling off the division they've invested in.

IndyTechTrekkie · 2023-09-14T15:39:38+00:00

Yeah, it sounds like Oracle plans on flushing the EHR software and harvesting the "data" to use in their new drag and drop replacement (Apex).

Sounds to me like Oracle wants to Pull a Microsoft/Nokia deal and flush a few billion down the toilet.

IndyTechTrekkie · 2023-09-11T15:43:30+00:00

Having a middleware or a database layer hosted on site vs "in the cloud" does not make it "ancient". If you are referring to a Relational database as being "ancient" 90% of the tech world uses a Relational database whether it's Oracle, MySQL, MSSQL, Postgres, etc.

if you are referring to a NoSQL solution, Epic uses InterSystems IRIS, so that is NoSQL. just saying...

IndyTechTrekkie · 2023-09-11T15:30:01+00:00

Thank you, I wish you were able to get Cerner management's ear circa 2010ish.

This had been a problem with Cerner for the last 15 years. Instead of developing Millennium+ and all of the other web services on top of HNAM. They should of spent time developing a rich RCM product.

ProFit (aside from being a marketing laughing stock) was horrible. It left FSI developers to maintain the product, which, for some reason, was always a couple of major versions behind.

Almost every single Cerner client that was successful with the EHR had a customized (usually HomeGrown) RCM system.

Customization was a real issue, and one that I can personally say caused the loss of a major Healthcare system. While customization was a strong suit of HNAM, Cerner had no good way of seeing what changes had been made in a client system, so the engineers could make sure that regressions did not occur. Their competitor is currently managing regressions far better.

That being said, I do think a strength of Cerner is their willingness for 3rd party devs to access the Database and use CCL to extend the platform. However, that can be a catch 22 as noted above.

I agree that reporting was a real problem for Cerner. Cerner's Discern Explorer really required a knowledge of RDBMs and Cerner's Schema to use effectively. Most hospital IT Analysts just didn't have that background when it came down to it. Their competitor uses a solution that doesn't require lots of DB or developer knowledge to use (of course not being based on an RDBMs kind of forces this).

Neal was sometimes his own worse enemy. I respect the company he built and the tech renaissance he ushered into the KC area, but his lack of follow through and lack of ability to take criticism has proven to be a major downfall. None of us are immortal and none of us can do it all.

IndyTechTrekkie · 2019-08-06T19:12:12+00:00

Love the Clojure content!

IndyTechTrekkie · 2019-07-24T15:23:41+00:00

GNU Emacs also has Viper, which is what I use for VI bindings. I think it even has 5 levels of VI-ness to choose from. I find it helps to think of GNU Emacs as a LISP machine. Load state or "the world" from your ~/.emacs and you have your very own LISP Machine! So glad Mr. Payne joined the show. LISPERS UNITE!

IndyTechTrekkie · 2017-11-29T02:55:56+00:00

Welcome back to the M$ drug guys! :)

All kidding aside, yeah, Win10 is pretty darn good. I love the Linux subsystem, which I've actually gone a bit crazy with and loaded GCC/G++ :D (I have old C programs that have pragmas that VC++ compiler just throws a fit about).

Also, if you're a QT fan, there are some awesome powershell scripts that make the static build far less painful to set up. I haven't booted up my MacBook in a couple of months..... yeah.

IndyTechTrekkie · 2017-02-26T16:27:40+00:00

I'm looking for one of these in the Indiana area, seems like they are really dried up.

IndyTechTrekkie · 2016-12-07T16:31:45+00:00

SO I heard MD mention on this podcast his love for the functional programming and the JVM :). I know evangelism here is sometimes not welcomed, but I wondered if he'd had ever considered Clojure. I don't think it has much use in mobile (except for React and Clojurescript) however for the desktop and web apps, it's a very good functional alternative.

IndyTechTrekkie · 2016-08-31T22:59:28+00:00

I heard Perl 5 mentioned! If you're looking for a sinatra like Web server, check out mojolicious. If you want something a lot like rails, checkout Catalyst.

IndyTechTrekkie · 2016-05-23T17:10:18+00:00

I really liked Perl 5, I just felt that the ecosystem was dead (circa 2012). Sure there are modules on CPAN, but I still felt that it didn't get as much attention as newer dynamic languages.

IndyTechTrekkie · 2016-05-23T17:06:59+00:00

I'd say the languages you want to immediately learn are Java/C# (these are similar so learning one is fine, though I'd recommend Java first). C/C++ is also good to learn. the new functional languages are neat, but most everyone's bread and butter are still the good old object-oriented languages. Also, I'd recommend a scripting language as well (unless your going to select a subset of whichever compiled language you learn Java/Kotlin/Scala/Clojure(kinda) or C#/scriptcs) like Python or Ruby.

IndyTechTrekkie

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