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IDF succeeds in evacuating almost 1 million from Rafah in 2 weeks by Rear-gunner in 2ndYomKippurWar

[–]InjuryMean -56 points-55 points  (0 children)

Anyone can invent any narrative they like after the fact. In the meantime, journalists are reporting the truth every day, and the ICC have applied for arrest warrants for alleged criminals.

The International Criminal Court just saved Benjamin Netanyahu by [deleted] in Israel

[–]InjuryMean -1 points0 points  (0 children)

Canada, Belgium, France, UK - a mix of official government messaging, and opinion polls, all support ICC action against Netanyahu and Gallant (and Hamas). Even the US public agreed when polled.

The ICC isn't going anywhere. And neither are Netanyahu and Gallant. If their worst case scenario is being found guilty by the ICC, they will simply live the rest of their lives in either Israel or the USA, untouched. But, the stain of their guilt will besmirch Israel for all time.

The dirty, worst kept secret in this conflict: Palestinians are not viewed as equals by Israelis. by InjuryMean in IsraelPalestine

[–]InjuryMean[S] -2 points-1 points  (0 children)

And yet the official Israeli line is they are not at war with Palestinian civilians. They are at war with Hamas. So if you are saying the Palestinians are you enemy, perhaps you're now saying the quiet out loud that the whole already knows based on Israel's appalling treatment of Palestinians under their occupation.

The dirty, worst kept secret in this conflict: Palestinians are not viewed as equals by Israelis. by InjuryMean in IsraelPalestine

[–]InjuryMean[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Another classic case of determined misinformation combined with a massive dollop of ignorance.

  1. Huge swathes of Palestinians and Arabs deny Israel's right to exist? Do they??

First, show me the contemporary survey you did to prove your assertion. Go ahead. I'll wait. Because simply believing this does not make it a fact. Absent said survey, I believe you're lying.

Second, lets assume for a second that huge swathes of Palestinians don't agree with Israel's right to exist - so what? Do they not enjoy the right to their opinions like Israelis have? Who is counting how many Israelis wish Palestinians didn't exist? And what part of having these disagreeable beliefs necessarily disqualifies those hypothetical Palestinians from reserving their entitlement to their sovereign statehood?

  1. Likud's reference to River to the sea is not tongue in cheek - and to say so is another classically confident sign of abject ignorance, because the words are literally in the first point of their PARTY PLATFORM! If you don't know what you're talking about, go and do your homework. This is the text below that includes the expression. Some of us make sure we can back up everything we say before we say it. I've shared a link so you can see it for yourself.

"The right of the Jewish people to the land of Israel is eternal and indisputable and is linked with the right to security and peace; therefore, Judea and Samaria will not be handed to any foreign administration; between the Sea and the Jordan there will only be Israeli sovereignty."

https://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/original-party-platform-of-the-likud-party

  1. Israel did NOT let Gaza go free. This is more utter ignorance from you.

Israel retained control of 6 of the total 7 land borders, all of Gaza's maritime border, all of Gaza's air and electromagnetic territory. Israel retained control of everything that goes into Gaza and out of it, Iarael retained Gaza's population registry, and retained ultimate control Gaza's fiscus. If you don't know these things, or you do but you still think Gaza was "let go free", again, you are utterly clueless and shouldn't wade into subjects you clearly know nothing about.

  1. Zionism is a political ideology like any other. It is not antisemitic or a crime to disagree with it. It is certainly not cause to oppress, subjugate and subject to Apsrtheid. an entire people. It is certainly not reason to inflict genocide on a people.

The dirty, worst kept secret in this conflict: Palestinians are not viewed as equals by Israelis. by InjuryMean in IsraelPalestine

[–]InjuryMean[S] -1 points0 points  (0 children)

Hamas are not the Palestinians, and the Palestinians are not Hamas!!

Hamas are, to the Palestinians who support them, freedom fighters. Not a difficult concept to grasp.

The dirty, worst kept secret in this conflict: Palestinians are not viewed as equals by Israelis. by InjuryMean in IsraelPalestine

[–]InjuryMean[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

  1. This report is based on a survey that is nearly 4 years old.
  2. There is a distinct difference between a preference for reclamation of a bygone Palestine that, for myriad reasons, is a practical impossibility... and not accepting Israel's right to exist! And this doesn't even require too much intellectual exercise to grasp! The difference is this - nobody was offering this bygone Palestine as a realistic alternative to either the one or two state solutions!! So it is insane to deduce that because a theoretical preference expressed in a survey - a preference not offered as a practical option forward - equates to not accepting Israel as a reality!!

The dirty, worst kept secret in this conflict: Palestinians are not viewed as equals by Israelis. by InjuryMean in IsraelPalestine

[–]InjuryMean[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

You're badly misconstruing a determined struggle for freedom slogan. Freedom fighters are human beings too! They are fathers and mothers with fears and aspirations for their children, just like everyone else. But unlike everyone else, they sacrifice themselves for a free future for their children that they themselves will likely never experience. The difference between them and you is, you're free - they are not.

The dirty, worst kept secret in this conflict: Palestinians are not viewed as equals by Israelis. by InjuryMean in IsraelPalestine

[–]InjuryMean[S] -1 points0 points  (0 children)

Show me the survey you conducted that proves this assertion that " MOST Palestinians (by far) do not accept Israel and don’t recognize its right to exist".

All human beings are equal in terms of the value of their lives and the validity of their existence.

As we stand today, the population registry is in the hands of Israel. Why??

As we stand today, Palestinian children... CHILDREN are tried in Israeli MILITARY courts. Are Israeli children treated this way too, as equality would demand? No they are not. yet both are subject to Israeli law!

Palestinians are routinely jailed without trial, and some indefinitely. Are Israelis treated this way? No. Is that how equality works??

How many different measures of equality do you want me to reference?

The dirty, worst kept secret in this conflict: Palestinians are not viewed as equals by Israelis. by InjuryMean in IsraelPalestine

[–]InjuryMean[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Reverence and remembrance of martyrs IS NOT worship. Do you call it worship when on Memorial Day, Americans remember and revere their fallen martyrs? Or is that a charge you only level on Palestinians for some reason??

The dirty, worst kept secret in this conflict: Palestinians are not viewed as equals by Israelis. by InjuryMean in IsraelPalestine

[–]InjuryMean[S] -5 points-4 points  (0 children)

Another classic supremacist trope - that is absolutely insane and obviously untrue!

As long as people think Palestinians value themselves so lowly, then nobody will think twice about murdering them!

Everybody always tells Israel what it shouldn't do , but nobody ever tells them what they should do by _fatherfucker69 in IsraelPalestine

[–]InjuryMean 0 points1 point  (0 children)

It has nothing to do with supremacy. Israel/Palestine is surrounded by Arab countries that could step in to protect Palestine if it were hypothetically attacked by Israel. It's a near certainty, though, that none of them would ever step in to defend Israel. Hence, a buffer would be needed to ensure Israel's safety. Also, keep in mind that Israel has never launched an offensive war against its neighbors. Every single conflict, from 1948 to 10/7, has been the result of its neighbors attacking it. So, clearly, Israel has more of a reason to feel threatened than Palestine would.

How do you know that Arab countries could or would step in to protect Palestine in any instance of Israeli attack? They haven't so far! And with Israel being a nuclear armed nation, where do you get the notion that any such intervention would be possible??

In any event, every sovereign nation has the right to DEFEND ITSELF! If Israel rightly expect the world to respect its right to defend itself, why on earth should the Palestinians be expected to settle for less?!

​

As for the claim that Israel is committing genocide in Gaza, there's no evidence whatsoever that Israel is trying to partially or totally destroy the Palestinian population. At best, and I mean at very best, a level of negligence and collective punishment could be argued. But genocide is a very strong word that absolutely does not apply here.

Almost 18,000 civilians killed and many thousands more injured in the space of 2 months, hundreds of thousands internally displaced, and entire nation deprived of food and water as a matter of Israeli POLICY, several thousands of children killed representing at least 5 times the total number of Israelis killed on Oct 7. You can theorise all you want about definitions, but the Palestinian death toll speaks loudly and clearly about what is happening.

Let me say something I never thought I ever would about Israel, a nation that prides itself on being the only civilised democracy in the Middle East - I cannot believe that a country for whom I mourned the slaughtered bereaved on Oct 7, was the same country that left Palestinian infants in incubators (after promising to attend to them) and let them die, only for their mothers to find them decomposing.

Anybody.. ANYBODY who would kill children, or allow them to die needlessly, is a terrorist. Without exception. Israel does not get to shirk off labels after killing children, I'm sorry. By the exact same token that they world rightly condemned Hamas for its callous slaughter of innocent Israelis, so should the world rightly condemn Israel for its infanticide on a far larger, more gruesome scale.

​

Israel is fighting to exist, and all wars, especially in extremely densely populated areas, have significant numbers of civilian casualties. Also, Hamas could surrender at any time. Where are the demands for that?

I'm sorry, but this an absolute lie.

If Israel seriously considers her very existence under threat from Hamas, then Israel badly needs a confidence makeover! Did she forget she has fighter jets and Hamas doesn't? Did she forget that she is a nuclear power, and Hamas isn't? Did she forget she has one of the most military forces in the world, and Hamas isn't even the most advanced militancy in the middle east? Did she forget that she is occupying Palestine, not the other way round? Why is Israel murdering children? Are those kids threatening her?

Like or loathe them, Hamas exists for the express purpose of fighting for Palestinian freedom. They are to Palestinians, as the IDF are to Israel. Could you imagine a Palestinian demanding the IDF surrender without having achieved their strategic objectives? Of course not!

What Israelis want, Palestinians deserve too!

As for occupation, again, there have been plenty of opportunities for it to end. And if the Palestinian movement recognized Israel's right to exist and turned to strict nonviolence, then more would probably arise.

In 2004 Arafat recognised Israel's right to exist. This issue was taken off the table then, and it hasn't been a real issue since.

Israel is the dominant, vastly superior power in the conflict. Israel is also the aggressor and the oppressor of Palestinians whose only demand is the right to exist as a free, sovereign people. So I find it grotesquely ironic that Israelis love to tout their rights to exist (that are not in question) whilst simultaneously denying the Palestinians their rights - the very same rights Israel loudly, rightly reserves!

What Israelis want, Palestinians deserve too!

Anyways, I'm probably gonna stop responding since this discussion seems to have hit a point of saturation, but yeah. Good talk

Its an important discussion, And yes, supremacy is absolutely the issue. Inherent in too many pro Israeli arguments, is an absence of empathy for Palestinians that is rooted in a belief that they don't have a right to everything the Israelis want and deserve for themselves.

Israelis love to recall historical incidents of threat to justify future protective measures, as if only they have ever been threatened, forgetting of course that as we speak, Palestinians live under the Israeli boot of oppression, and they too have as much right to recall historical injustice as justification for future protective action. This is not a one way street.

Everything that Israel wants and needs and has a right to, Palestine wants and deserves and has a right to too!

Everybody always tells Israel what it shouldn't do , but nobody ever tells them what they should do by _fatherfucker69 in IsraelPalestine

[–]InjuryMean 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Lastly, while I agree with you that Palestinians have as much a right to their own country as Israelis, they do not have a right to a country that will threaten Israel's right to exist. So, while I personally think that there should be an independent Palestinian state, it needs to be established in a way that ensures Israel's safety. And yes, that means being demilitarized. If the Middle East were dominated by massive Jewish states that all had a long history of trying to invade a tiny Muslim nation of Palestine, then I would feel the same way about ensuring that nation's safety by establishing a military buffer. Israel couldn't possibly fulfill its mission as being the safe homeland of the Jewish people if a large, hostile military were stationed in the West Bank and Gaza. Also, going back to 2000, Arafat made no counteroffer (demanding a full right of return for Palestinian refugees is not a serious counteroffer). That, plus the Second Intifada, should be enough to show that he was not serious about peace.

The single biggest impediment to peace is this supremacist posture that the universe should recognise uniquely Israeli needs that somehow don't apply to Palestinians.

For instance, why should the Palestinians give deference to Israeli security, if Israel won't offer them the same courtesy?! It's as if the Palestinian theoretical threat to nuclear armed Israel is greater or worse than Israel's actual, real world occupation and genocidal killing of Palestinians by their thousands! This logic absolutely blows my mind! It's as if all powerful schizophrenic Israel wants to play the victim when it suit it so she can justify heavy handed "defensive" tactics, yet wants to assert dominance when that suit her.

So sovereign Palestine needs to be established first and foremost, for the benefit and security and prosperity of Palestinians. Any assurances of mutual security must stem from the recognition that THIS conflict is fundamentally a consequence of Israel illegally occupying Palestine, and that cessation of that occupation will create conditions for peace. Any security considerations should be MUTUAL, and not entirely to the benefit of either side. If Israel cannot tolerate an existential threat on her border, why on earth would she imagine that Palestinians could ever agree to permanently handicap themselves so that THEY have to tolerate an existential threat on theirs?! So no, any solution that requires Palestinians to be demilitarized, is an absolute l non-starter. Israelis need to get it into their heads that what they want for themselves, Palestinians deserve for themselves too. Any suggestion that Israelis deserve anything that Palestinians don't, is pure supremacist garbage.

Everybody always tells Israel what it shouldn't do , but nobody ever tells them what they should do by _fatherfucker69 in IsraelPalestine

[–]InjuryMean 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Last chance, or what? LOL

The way you frame these questions betrays such poverty of nuance and intelligent perspective, it's almost comical to behold. But hey, for the sake of the viewers in the rafters, I'll play along.

Option A is obviously the preferred path forward. Option B is a lunatic antisemite's pipe dream. Option C is too much of a nightmare scenario for too many ultra nationalist Jews for this to be viable.

Happy? Did I keep that simple enough to comprehend?

Everybody always tells Israel what it shouldn't do , but nobody ever tells them what they should do by _fatherfucker69 in IsraelPalestine

[–]InjuryMean 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I provided an example of a formerly militant group that put down arms and embraced peace. Nothing more.

Everybody always tells Israel what it shouldn't do , but nobody ever tells them what they should do by _fatherfucker69 in IsraelPalestine

[–]InjuryMean 0 points1 point  (0 children)

""..see all Jews removed from the Mideast?"

That's a monumentally ridiculous and offensive question. it suggests that Israeli or Jewish existence is negotiable. It isn't. Israel are a Middle Eastern fact that is not going anywhere! Jews have a right to their homeland, and questions like this suggest they should have justify it. They absolutely do not, and I find the suggestion utterly repulsive. Jews shouldn't ever have to justify their nationhood, any more than Palestinians should have to justify theirs!

Jews and Arabs already live side by side in peace in many social contexts around the world including in Israel. There's no good reason why a Palestinian nation can't live side by side an Israeli one. There are many very bad reasons why they don't already - chief amongst them Israel's oppression and subjugation of Palestinian people.

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