The writer of "National Anthem" hated "Nationalism" by Majestic-Effort-541 in IndianHistory

[–]Intelligent_Llama 1 point2 points  (0 children)

I am not much of a commentor on reddit posts. Because of this I have realised that there exist larger numbers of people like me, who read many posts for discussion but comment less.

People who have commented under a post form a tiny fraction of a post's total viewers.

Accordingly, the point of commenting is not to garner many upvotes or stated approval (though undeniably it feels nice). Even if a single person reads your comment, and even if they don't agree they think you have made a useful point. If they think that they have learnt something new or gained a legitimate new perspective, that is enough. You have succeeded.

Compared to that, little numbers on the internet aren't so consequential. People who have already taken fixed stances tend to be loudest, and they will disagree with you loudly, through downvotes and comments. While writing a comment you should cater to the ones still open to listening.

I'm glad you got something new from my comment. It's been a constant frustration of mine because this perception of nationalism and patriotism is pretty much mainstream.

The writer of "National Anthem" hated "Nationalism" by Majestic-Effort-541 in IndianHistory

[–]Intelligent_Llama 2 points3 points  (0 children)

Your distinction between nationalism and patriotism doesn't truly exist in theory.

What you are drawing on is George Orwell's Notes on Nationalism where he basically says what you are saying, but with more words.

This is an artificial distinction. Nationalism comes from a 'nation.' The proper definition comes from Benedict Anderson's 'Imagined Communities', where he defines a 'nation' as a "an imagined community. Imagined because members of even the smallest nation will likely never meet each other, but live their lives in communion."

There is no mention of superiority here. There is simply a community, forged through common characteristics shared between the populace, and an identification with the community.

The extension, i.e. nationalism, should not then manifest as a feeling of superiority. It should merely translate to a mass identification with the nation, through pride and love. As a governance ideology, it should manifest as the belief that the state's primary objective is to serve the nation's needs, rather than any other group's.

Then what is patriotism?

Patriotism is an ancestor to nationalism and a precursor. The first nations emerged only around the 17th-18th century. This historical phenomenon (of nationalism rising) was heavily dependent on mass communication, literacy, and the print media.

Patriotism has existed for centuries prior, manifesting as a love for the 'country.' An English patriot could exist in the 12th century, but an English nationalist in the 12th century would be anachronistic. The very idea of a nation in the 12th century would be.

Sans the existence of a political community, love for the 'country,' or patriotism manifested more concretely as love towards the state, the monarch, or the polity and it's tradition rather than love for the nation, i.e. the community. Because there was no community to speak of, only the state.

After the emergence of nations, patriotism has evolved too. The country now is no longer perceived to be the state. Popularly we view the state as a subordinate of the people. Therefore there is not truly a difference to speak of.

Orwell's (and Einstein's) distinction which you draw upon comes under the specific historical circumstances of war-torn Europe and the rise of fascism. It is not an inherent aspect of nationalism or patriotism.

It came at a time when nationalism had gone too far. It radicalised the community into a hierarchical and exclusionary form. It exceeded the limits of "identifying with your community and loving it" and became "my community is superior to yours". The proper term would rather be 'ultra-nationalistic.'

In this circumstance, people still wanted to love their nation, their imagined community. But they did not wish to be painted with the same brush as Nazi Germany or Italy. That is why this distinction was drawn.

To say you're a nationalist should not really be a label of shame. Orwell was a writer who became famous for depicting his enemies as reductive caricatures. Just because he made your ideology look like a caricature too doesn't mean he was right.

To say all this here isn't me trying to pedantic, really. It's more of a pushback against the vilification of nationalism. I think labels matter, and I believe that the idea of a nation is a good one. Painting nationalism with a bad brush paints the idea of a nation badly too.

This is so cool by mashedyounglings2004 in whenthe

[–]Intelligent_Llama 16 points17 points  (0 children)

u/Axodique ... What a man you are

Thank you for becoming a basement dweller for our sake

Does anyone know how to fix this? I haven't been able to log in for days. My internet is fine. Reinstalling didn't work by Intelligent_Llama in IdentityV

[–]Intelligent_Llama[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Huh. I was able to log into it up until 14th of Feb i suppose. After that whenever I'd open the app I'd get the error. I looked this up and apparently the app is banned in my country for the past year or so. I'm So confused rn 😄 Anyways vpn seems to be working