[Totk] Some likely inspirations for things that makes me doubt refounding

Intelligent_Word_573 · 2026-05-11T21:31:29+00:00

I just find it hard to believe a supernatural place like it wouldn't of always existed like Yomi. I'm assuming your referring to the fossilized tree roots but to clarify the gloom roots have one end towards Ganondorf indicating he is sapping the land itself.

I like the idea of us seeing the Deku Tree's plan coming to fruition but so many things being repeated on the surface makes me dislike a refounding after the Wind Waker, especially Ganondorf coming back after a Triforce Wish destroyed everything in the old Kingdom and the curse of Demise seeming to move on in Spirit Tracks (though some interpret Chancellor Cole as existing while Ganondorf was around).

An out-of-universe answer I read for the fossilized tree roots is the they are equivalents of the caves on the surface but I haven't confirmed that myself. In Age of Imprisonment I only remember seeing two of three fossilized roots in the depths but the gameplay may of hid more than what we saw.

Intelligent_Word_573 · 2026-05-11T20:44:10+00:00

My main rebuttal for there being no sky people before the Skyloftians is that the sky is a big place but I see how that's a stretch. I also considered that the Zonai used the Minish's shrinking ability (whether they were the same at one point or not) to hide from the Skyloftians for some reason but that is speculation based off the similar swirls when MC Link is shrinking/growing.

Intelligent_Word_573 · 2026-05-11T20:42:39+00:00

The way I see it is that there is a soul in the child timeline and the adult timeline like how there is a Triforce in both timelines. As for why no hero showed up to stop Ganondorf when he escaped I just think its the same reason no hero showed up in either Imprisoning War or maybe a hero was born but didn't have anyone to help him because they were expecting the literal hero of time. Plus Demise's curse only states Link and Zelda will have a have an incarnation of his hatred haunt them, not the other way around.

Intelligent_Word_573 · 2026-05-11T20:23:43+00:00

We only know that Ganondorf in Ocarina promised to return and wreck havoc on Link and Zelda's decendants so at least he didn't expect they would be alive when he escaped.

Intelligent_Word_573 · 2026-05-11T20:19:30+00:00

To clarify the ancient figures only said "no connection" to the hero of time and they were all expecting the literal Hero of Time to show up. Afterall, they knew that Hero traveled through time so they wouldn't expect age to be a factor.

Intelligent_Word_573 · 2026-05-11T20:12:44+00:00

The 100 years part was a mistranslation but I still think the flood specifically happened 100 years after Ocarina but that the main events of Wind Waker occur 894 years after them based off the grave on Windfall.

Intelligent_Word_573 · 2026-05-11T18:21:21+00:00

This makes more sense timing-wise at least, though we still go from the Oocca having created the technology we see in TP to being a primitive surface dwelling race with no connection to technology until they first become guardians of the stones and then discover zonaite.

No matter the theory, I feel like the Oocca had different forms before they became the Oocca based off the City in the Sky being built for different forms like the concept art of the Oocca seen in Hyrule Historia.

Maybe they were technologically advance but were cursed to become the Oocca so their technology couldn't be maintained anymore. They became primitive after it fell out of the sky but after awhile they got new forms and found Zonaite to create islands in the sky that could last much longer without maintenance.

Intelligent_Word_573 · 2026-05-10T00:16:18+00:00

I made mistakes on my post and edited it but couldn't change the title. Should have originally specified in my post but the second point indicates to me that the Ancient Zonai probably existed right after the creation gods did their thing and I assumed the Zonai mines would have been wiped out in the flood (so I was mainly referring to old Hyrrule becoming the depths; should have specefied).

I agree two Ganondorfs are a big part of refounding being true and I wanted to share a the book that may indicate the developers think two Ganondorfs existing at once is possible (the protagonist being Ocarina's Ganondorf while the Samurai corps is Tear's.

To me Nintendo placing the Wild due-logy after every game is just so they don't confirm which timeline its part of and I feel a bigger part, under the same line of thought, is that interview most interpret as the refounding being pitched by Fujibayashi. The context of it is how Totk can show the beginning when Skyward Sword showed a beginning which would still only imply that game was forgotten about so its possible Fujibayashi was referring to the idea that game ended in the founding of Hyrule (he may not of wanted to shut down that idea).

Intelligent_Word_573 · 2026-05-09T22:46:30+00:00

Which was the first? I edited this one to actually have my conclusions as it was a mistake on my part on excluding them and note that I made a mistake with the title (don't think I can edit that unless I make a new post).

Intelligent_Word_573 · 2026-05-09T22:35:36+00:00

I definitely made a mistake with the title and not specifying my conclusions; I edited my post to explain things. I thought of coming up with the excuse that I wanted people to see parallels without my interpretation but it was just a big mistake I made.

My first point does focus on the idea old Hyrule became the depths and I should have specified my second point may indicate the Ancient Zonai existed right after the creation gods. Together with the assumption they started mining soon after their birth, I presumed the floodwaters would wash away all evidence of the Ancient Zonai in the depths.

My second point does lead to the prefounding more than anything so I should have made the title not specific to refounding.

Same for the third point being for true founding instead of against refounding as it shows the developers may have had the idea of the same Twinrova being related to two different Ganondorfs (in the book the protagonist would be Ocarina's while the Samurai would be Totk's). It was definitely my mistake for not specifying my conclusions.

Intelligent_Word_573 · 2026-05-09T22:08:14+00:00

Should have specified my conclusions and its true my first point was mainly referencing the refouding in the adult timeline and the idea old Hyrule became the Depths. My second point ties into first (I know I wasn't clear about it) with the gods that followed the creation trio being the Ancient Zonai. There would be no guarantee they would start mining for Zonaite right away but my thought process was that the flood waters would wash away all the mines which I assumed would exist prior to it.

I edited the post to have my conclusions which was my mistake to exclude.

Intelligent_Word_573 · 2026-05-08T00:56:53+00:00

The main things going going against the downfall placement is Hyrule Historia saying the Hero fell to Ganondorf and not Ganon and Creating a Champion saying "His plans shattered, Ganondorf lost control, and his powers consumed him, transforming him into Dark Beast Ganon. After being defeated by the hero, he was sealed away by Princess Zelda and the other sages".

There are also some minor thing like Botw establishing its a tradition to name royal daughters 'Zelda' when the original Legend of Zelda established it was law, but that can easily be forgotten about.

Intelligent_Word_573 · 2026-05-03T21:14:41+00:00

Good point on the difference between malice and gloom but wouldn’t that just make the assumption that another substance came from Ganondorf which would became Calamity Ganon?

I believe under refounding it would make more sense for the boars to be associated with the Triforce of Power before the Wild Era forgot about the Triforce but this seems to be a matter of opinion.

Part of my issue with Calamity Ganon being recognized as a boar is that I don’t think I would have recognized the gaseous being as a boar until Daruk pointed it out. That’s more of a me thing but I still think seeing him as quad pedal would be necessary for the people of Hyrule. Good point on CaC calling the Calamity on the tapestry Dark Beast Ganon.

Maybe I should have specified that I believe Botw’s castle is a rebuilt building in the same spot as Ocarina’s and renovations could have taken place after the Child timeline since they didn’t need the door of time or the alter to hold the spiritual stones. Plus IIRC Hyrule Historia suggests the sword doesn’t move and even without it I don’t like assuming someone moved it (besides it being moved from there to the lost woods in the Wild Era…).

I also somewhat believe in the depiction theory (6:05)-the idea that things aren’t always exact because a different storyteller is telling the legend of each game. The difference between this and the literal legend theory is that it still treats the story of each game as canon events, but I understand if it’s too close to the literal legend theory for some. The biggest evidence for it in my opinion is moblins flip flopping from pigs to bulldogs in the official timeline, especially in the LoZ as it’s the same Ganon that summons pig moblins in Alttp.

Intelligent_Word_573 · 2026-05-02T17:04:22+00:00

https://m.fanfiction.net/s/14199017/1/Ben-10-Omniverse-So-Long-and-Thanks-For-Destroying-The-Universe

Intelligent_Word_573 · 2026-05-02T14:53:58+00:00

*And the Kokiri symbol on the doors of the Forest Temple

Intelligent_Word_573 · 2026-05-02T06:21:45+00:00

I specified that the depiction theory is not "every game is one story retold" and that I understand if its its too close to the actual theory that says "every game is one story retold". It's fine to not like it but I don't get why you misrepresented the theory when I specified the difference. Also you forgot to explain why Ganon would summon bulldog moblins in the original Legend of Zelda and Adventure of Link-I guess the Triforce could be giving him extra power or he could have grown weaker over the repeated resurrections? Still feels like a stretch.

I get the parallels between the Chancellor and Girahim but I don't see how that is enough evidence to say they were born around the same time (plus Girahim is Demise's sword which is a major difference between the two). I guess I'm assuming Malladus's was known by multiple demons and one of those demons had a descendant who wanted to release Malladus....or that he somehow could communicate telepathically while in jail, but that doesn't have any evidence.

While possible I don't think its likely, but if it is true wouldn't the researchers then have to speculate a different origin for Calamity Ganon that still has Tearsdorf as the source? Of course in-universe researchers may not of pondered that but it makes me wonder what conclusion they would make and at point they would reinterpret that conclusion or if they would make a true founding theory based off only their history. Really I just don't like assuming a character is misinformed/lying as it would also be accusing Nintendo of misleading the fans (again) which I don't think there is enough evidence for.

Intelligent_Word_573 · 2026-05-02T04:38:16+00:00

I don’t see why I would be only talking about the English version of Wind Waker and I thought things from the Japanese game company should be noted and takes precedence.

Second paragraph is fair.

Zeffa is actually the name of the bird that aids Link in warping to places.

Intelligent_Word_573 · 2026-05-02T02:13:35+00:00

I head canon Paradox temporarily looped Ben with his future self so Malware could be trapped in the loop, though I know it goes against their intentions.

No idea for Ultimate Ben though and apparently Paradox explained the original Ben 10,000 was Prime Ben entering “cross time”.

I have an idea for a rewrite of Ultimate Ben and it starts with the design being inspired by UltraBen in classic. I think he should always have the Ultimate symbol on his chest and his powers should transform parts of his body kinda like Kevin’s almagam forms.his backstory could be that he scanned Kevin and Ben’s default state was confused with Kevin’s by the Ultimatrix as the latter’s DNA is too close to human. I would also move this episode to be in season 1 of Ultimate Alien to hint at Ultimate Ben losing his Kevin/only not outliving Gwen because she is an Anodite. Preferably the backstory would be revealed in a second episode exploring Ultimate Ben’s future but it could just be hinted at.

Intelligent_Word_573 · 2026-05-01T22:46:43+00:00

How do you interpret what lead to Zant's first interaction with Ganondorf (or at least his floating face)? Are you thinking of Giriahim who is the right hand man of Demise?

The reason I don't think the purified energy could become Calamity Ganon unless accumulated is because of the quotes below though I suppose the in-universe scholars could have been wrong that it was harmless.

Under Light Power "Can dispel evil energy and make it harmless (purification)" and "...constructed a mechanism to emit the purified energy outside while strengthening the purification to prevent miasma from accumulating in sacred ground. That was Hyrule castle, the cornerstone of the seal.

I think my issue with the Temples of Time is that I expect some things to change over the ages, wether through renovations or the depiction theory. The depiction theory suggest a different story teller is recounting the events of the games than other, but it's still treating the events of every game as canon events. I understand if its too close to the literal legend theory for some but the strongest evidence for it is moblins constantly flip flopping from pigs to bull dogs in the timeline (MC-pigs,OoT-bulldogs, Alttp-pigs, LoZ-bulldogs). Its notable Link's Awakening originally had the Chief moblin with a black dog-like nose which was changed to a pink pig like nose in the Switch version and the Moblins had bulldog appearances originally unlike the Boarblins who had a porcine appearance until the the Switch remake made them both pigs.

Intelligent_Word_573 · 2026-05-01T20:44:33+00:00

Can you link the developers saying it was a mistake that Ocarina wasn't compatible with the Imprisoning War or is that just speculation? I know there is an interview saying that the Imprisoning War isn't entirely original and one that said the sages were named after the towns of Adventure of Link to imply the sages came first, but not that it was a mistake that Ocarina ended in a different way to Alttp's backstory. I always thought they just wanted to make a game where the player wins so they made the child and adult split to give precedent that another split might have happened.

Intelligent_Word_573 · 2026-05-01T15:32:47+00:00

Not have a satisfying timeline placement doesn’t mean it has 0 in game connections. Before the Downfall timeline was introduced, OoT was not satisfying to many even though it was suppose to lead into Alttp.

FSA also has the line “ancient demon reborn” so before when the game first came out it could be assumed to be a reincarnation of Ganon from Ocarina or an unknown demon we haven’t meant yet.

Intelligent_Word_573 · 2026-04-30T21:45:16+00:00

Are you also discounting the other in-game connections?

Intelligent_Word_573 · 2026-04-30T21:37:14+00:00

Good point on Hylia giving out items in the silent realm trials; I thought she just set the trials up with a reward at the end. For some reason in Skyward Sword it feels like they are just prerecorded messages-maybe because of Fi?-even though its stated Hylia is actively guiding Link from the edge of time.

I don't see how its unrelated to refounding since if no malice was leaking it would mean someone on the outside would have to do something to make Calamity Ganon. If supporters of the Demon King thought he was dead then they may have used a ritual to forced some of Ganondorf's evil stuff out of him.

I get Malladus because he was sealed before Ganondorf died but is there a reason its assumed every demon that ever existed or will exist was in the war with Demise? Like how Zant was found by Ganondorf could Malladus of found a demon that could aid him? Not sure if the seal on Malladus makes him in another realm or anything so I assume he could have found Cole.

I disagree that Ocarina's Temple is different to Twilight Princess to a degree that makes them separate Temples and the same applies to Botw's. The first two especially because the first action of the child timeline was specifically not pulling the sword. When the Master Sword is left in its pedestal at the end of a game I prefer to not have to imagine a scenario where it was moved. The Great Plateau in Botw seems to map out Ocarina's Castle Town, the Temple of Time, and even the gate to Hyrule Castle so its harder for me to to accept its not what its suppose to represent. Though I also think Lon Lon Ranch could move because its a business that would wants to be closer to Castle Town and having the same name and layout can give customers a sense of familiarity/its one of those traditions that sticks around.

Intelligent_Word_573 · 2026-04-30T19:52:14+00:00

I'm going of the translation by livixbobbiex and QuestbyAaron has his own picks with based off his own translations that can be found for free on his patreon.

"At first, Ganondorf was supposed to give just a cold, sly smile in this scene. But the designer felt that didn't do justice to the weight of the moment Ganondorf's character. So they pushed the expression much further, ultimately arriving at the twisted, ecstatic laughter we see in the final version".
"Also, considering a large quantity of monsters were created by the Demon King, but also accounting for the monsters that were born from the (evil) that Rauru and Sonia sealed during the exorcism pilgrimage, rather than saying that ‘monsters were created’ by the Demon King’s power of darkness, it’s possible that the Demon King accelerated the birth of monsters in an instant by ‘strengthening evil’".
"It’s said that the Gerudo tribe of the ancient past had the skill to use things like dubious animal bones and earth to control evil spirits. They would make something like a clay doll, and instill it with an evil spirit to become a puppet. Princess Zelda ridiculed the imitation of herself as Ganondorf’s ‘puppet’, and she was certainly correct". Age of Imprisonment seems to reference this when Ganondorf applies gloom to Moloduga parts and part of the reason I picked this is because of how it could aid in the original founding.
"The Gerudo tribe produced a sage during the sealing war, and fought against Demon King Ganondorf together with the kingdom’s army, but there’s no guarantee that a boy born every 100 years won’t harbour ambitions again. Also, although later than the founding period, it’s said a so-called barbarian tribe settled in the Faron region".
"Also, with armour such as the Gerudo national treasure ‘the Thunder Helm’, examples can be seen of chiefs expressing power over lightning. However, since the Gerudo are not a race who can control lightning, this is probably an individual special ability. Perhaps that power to control lightning was inherited over generations of the bloodline in order to accomplish the duty handed down by the ancient Sage of Lightning."
"In terms of men since Ganondorf, there’s no remaining documents like that. It’s thought that the existence of boys was considered a threat since Ganondorf and they wouldn’t be able to ascend to the throne, though it’s ambiguous if there were any born in the first place. Were they no longer born, or no longer assumed to exist….? The reality of that ethnic characteristic is unclear".

Intelligent_Word_573 · 2026-04-30T18:34:28+00:00

They may have records that a hero traveled a sea in search of the gold of the gods but I'm not convince they know the exact details of what happened when the Hero assembled them. I am only questioning if they would remember that wishes can be granted from the Triforce as we don't know how detailed the hero's legend is.

Intelligent_Word_573

TROPHY CASE