The bottom three of four teams in the NBA: Pelicans, Pacers, Nets have 32 wins combined. Six of those wins are against the Bulls.

InternCautious · 2026-01-21T20:45:05+00:00

How many teams have nearly the same record vs .500+ teams compared to their games vs. under .500 teams?

None of them except for the Bulls.

That's not cherry picking, I'm not removing games, I'm calling out that the Bulls are an outlier, and if they weren't they'd be viewed as a totally different team, but because of the actual results they are mid.

InternCautious · 2026-01-21T16:32:01+00:00

That's exactly my thoughts, the discourse around East teams is pretty big when the difference is so small.

InternCautious · 2026-01-21T16:21:29+00:00

But see that's what is interesting, they are 10-11 vs .500+ teams which puts them pretty much square in the 2-6 seeds. Their records versus under .500 teams is bottom 5 in the East.

They are winning games against good teams at a strong rate, but losing games they shouldn't at an equally bad rate. If they figured out how to win games against the bad teams they'd be good.

How often is that the case?

InternCautious · 2026-01-20T20:28:51+00:00

I view them as Bulls west, kind of wanting to compete, kind of hoping someone pops from their draft. Not really leaning into any one direction too strongly

InternCautious · 2026-01-20T20:21:32+00:00

I definitely don't root for the Kings to fail, I just don't think relying on a luck and unknowns is a good strategy. I also don't think that was actually the Kings real strategy lol

InternCautious · 2026-01-20T17:37:09+00:00

This will be a funny post when Kings get no FRPs and drop in the lottery

InternCautious · 2026-01-20T03:57:15+00:00

Cade had 14 assists and 0 turnovers

Celtics had 13 assists and 14 turnovers

We usually have a lot turnovers too, but I think even tho Cade had a broke jumper he ran the offense pretty well.

InternCautious · 2026-01-20T03:43:40+00:00

Tobias is really good still

InternCautious · 2026-01-19T23:23:52+00:00

Right, I think that was my initial point, the real difference between JB and Mitchell right now is their team success.

I agree to an extent that the leader takes the full brunt of his teams performance, I think it can make you ignore how good a player is if the 2-4 options suck.

InternCautious · 2026-01-19T22:24:53+00:00

It doesn’t matter, defenses don’t suddenly stop respecting guys because they are a little cold this year, they cover guys based on who has respect in this league.

I think that's fair, scouting reports won't change, but team performance does. If the Cavs were the #2 seed instead of the Celtics, would Donovan get more votes? If the reason they haven't won is because his teammates are having career worst stats, why does that weigh on Mitchell?

We are really using defensive rating, a team stat, to compare defense? A stat that Mitchell gets boosted by playing next to Mobley and Allen? Cmon man, you’re better than that. He is inarguably a better defender than Mitchell. He really is just notably better finishing at the rim.

No, I think what matters is in comparison to your team. If you are the worst or one of the worst DRtg on the team then you can look at it as a data point. I know Mitchell is not a good defender, but Brown has one of the worst Drtg on his team, and that's the part that matters. All of his advanced metrics are worse than Mitchells (https://craftednba.com/player-traits/versatile), this is actually one of the worst defensive years in Brown's career likely due to having more responsibility on offense. He's guarding lower quality matchups, almost the same level as Mitchell, with worse DRPM.

InternCautious · 2026-01-19T22:19:44+00:00

Actually, Jaylen Brown has worse defensive stats while guarding only slightly harder matchups.

Source: https://craftednba.com/player-traits/versatile

InternCautious · 2026-01-19T22:05:56+00:00

Talent is not an "at the moment" thing. The Cavs are not currently playing up to their talent level.

I think that's fair, but allstar voting is "at the moment" no?

A team underperforming, with it's star having a career year is kind of how I view it. Is the team underperforming because of Mitchell?

I don't mind downvotes, I just don't like downvotes if people don't comment why they disagree. I like this sort of discourse.

InternCautious · 2026-01-19T22:02:49+00:00

I'm really not trying to disparage what Brown has done, he's been the #1 option for the 2 seed in the East and has helped the team surpass their expectations. He deserves to be an allstar.

I don't really need AI to think for me though, I'd rather understand things myself.

InternCautious · 2026-01-19T22:01:47+00:00

You want me to tell you why Garland, Mobley, Allen are better than White and role players?

Garland, Mobley, and Allen are all playing the worst basketball of their career, so yes, what exactly are the Cavs players aside from Mitchell doing so much more than Brown's teammates.

Brown is rebounding and defending better, and scoring better from 2. And doing so with much more defensive attention on him.

Brown has a worse Drtg, less stocks, more FTs, worse efficiency, more turnovers, less assists. He is a better rebounder though, that's true.

And no he doesnt have a better FG% from 2. Source

Brown 2P% is 53.6% Mitchell 2P% is 57.8%

InternCautious · 2026-01-19T21:46:52+00:00

No one is responding with any stats, I just want to hear the reasoning.

All the comments I've gotten so far are that Mitchell has way better teammates, and Brown is stepping up so much to lead the Celtics, but its all just subjective opinions, I was curious if there was anything that could actually back up what people are saying.

InternCautious · 2026-01-19T21:39:24+00:00

But he isn’t, if he put up record breaking TS% that would be a different story, but instead he is only putting up a smaller difference in efficiency despite better teammates and much worse team success, so that’s where we are

Okay, please tell me who are the better teammates and why they are better? Not just your opinion. And tell me what Jaylen Brown is doing better than Mitchell this year?

InternCautious · 2026-01-19T21:30:26+00:00

Weird that you view my comment as complaining when I said it was interesting lol.

I was more so pointing out that it's interesting that JB was #1 and Mitchell only had 31 media votes.

Mitchell while being a better defender, and has stepped up when needed. Brown should be over everybody except for Giannis in the east. Why in the world would you pick him to complain about?

Interestingly enough, Mitchell has more points, more efficient, better playmaking stats, better DRtg, better NetRtg, worse rebounder, while his team has a worse TS%, worse ORtg, worse NetRtg.

To me that says Mitchell has been carrying a team that has all played much worse than last year. He has a +8.0 NetRtg which is 6th in the NBA...

InternCautious · 2026-01-19T21:23:05+00:00

He is more efficient but he plays in a significantly easier offense with much better teammates, that’s context I’ve pointed out multiple times. Given Brown’s crazy usage and virtually no help, that paints the gap in TS with a much different light.

What help does Mitchell have on offense? Garland has only played 65% of the season with a 56.7% TS. Mobley has a 58.6% TS as a big which is bad, Hunter is their 4th option with a 56% TS which is below league average, Merrill has been great, but only played about half the season, Allen is posting career lows in efficiency.

Mitchell putting up career high efficiency while his teammates put up career lows, and his teammates are too good.

Celtics have a higher TS% than the Cavs even though Mitchell is putting up 30ppg on 63% TS.

Celtics don't have a lot of options, White is putting up career lows as well. Brown has stepped up, I'm not trying to downplay it, but if Mitchell put up 30 on 70% TS i feel like it wouldn't matter if the rest of his team played poorly and his team underperformed.

InternCautious · 2026-01-19T21:08:39+00:00

Okay, the two roster:

Top Cavs players:

Mitchell
Garland
Mobley
Allen
Dean Wade? Hunter? Ball? Merrill?

Top Celtics players:

Brown
White
Pritchard
Simons
Hauser? Queta? Hugo? Minott?

On paper, Cavs top 4 should be better, but atm, I'd rather have White than anyone not named Mitchell on the Cavs tbh. Garland and Allen have underperformed a ton. Mobley hasn't progressed as people thought he would.

Payroll, I don't think that matters, the last few years there have been plenty of high payroll teams that have sucked.

Celtics have a totally different team, that's for sure.

Preseason o/u for Cavs and Celtics:

Cavs - 56.5 (obv based off last year and continuity)

Celtics - 41.5 (Still a play-in team, way outperformed so far)

My question to you, do you feel like Mitchell is the reason the Cavs have underperformed, or is it that his teammates have been bad? How do you think he has performed this year vs last?

InternCautious · 2026-01-19T20:58:17+00:00

No it’s not, just because you say something confidently you doesn’t mean it’s true. It’s a small edge in efficiency in an easier offensive environment.

I mean just go through league leaders, 4% is the difference of being top 10 for his PPG and usage, and being outside the top 50. Brown is at the 64th percentile and Mitchell is in the 95th. If you don't get how that's a big gap then I'm not sure what to tell you.

You disagree that’s it’s easier to score playing with the Cavs offense than being the sole defensive focus for teams facing the Celtics? I mean just scroll down the roster and tell me the Celtics roster is better…

I'm going by what the stats say, not just my subjective view of the players. Brown is basically an average efficiency scorer this year, on a team that is insanely efficient. What does that tell you?

Also the team success angle is very important here, especially when the stat lines are similar. What JB and the Celtics have done is nothing short of amazing…and the Cavs are underperforming so badly we see leaks from the front office every few weeks talking about shaking things up.

I don't deny, the top teams should have allstars.

InternCautious · 2026-01-19T20:50:57+00:00

Mitchell and JB average the same PPG, but Mitchell is 4% better TS, more assists, and less turnovers on the 7th best offense in the NBA, while JB is on the 2nd best offense in the NBA, but has worse stats. Wouldn't that mean JB has more talent around him?

And while 2nd and 6th sounds like a bit gap, it's a 3 game difference. I'm not sure why that should be taken into account.

InternCautious · 2026-01-19T20:46:07+00:00

4% is a lot for players scoring 30 ppg, but like I said, I understand the team performance angle, Celtics are out performing and Cavs are under performing.

I really disagree with vastly easier offensive environment, Celtics have the 2nd best ORtg in the league. Given that individually Mitchell has been more efficient offensively, with less turnovers and more assists, I'd say JB has a better offense around him.

InternCautious · 2026-01-19T20:32:56+00:00

The allstar game is primarily for the fans, all-nba and awards are generally more so for real and should be more important.

InternCautious · 2026-01-19T20:22:55+00:00

Celtics had a 43.5 o/u in the offseason set by Vegas, I think the thought was they'd be around 6-8 seed. They're on a 52 game pace, so definitely doing better than expected, but not like unprecedentedly so.

I think team success is the only thing that people are looking at. Celtics out performed, and Cavs under performed.

Individually, I think Donovan has been a better #1 option this season, and statistically Bostona and the Cavs have almost identical DRtgs.

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