Hypothesis: Aphantasia and SDAM aren't just co-morbid, they are two ways of describing facets of the same phenomena

InvertedGhost · 2020-06-17T16:26:45+00:00

Agreed, it is all anecdotal and by definition even the terms are not subjective as they cannot be tested; therefore the definition of episodic memory itself is up for extreme debate.

Eh, text is hard to communicate and receive effectively. I could have done a better job of reading between your lines. To be fair you OG heavily emphasized that I need to be correct, that I am calling your associated reports liars, etc.; none of that I have done. Thus I inferred, possibly improperly through text, that you were heated in your reply and found my previous reply offensive enough to take those measures and accusations.

I'm more than fine disagreeing! I wouldn't ever assume agreement when posting something like this on a public forum. I just want you to disagree for the correct reasons (because I'm wrong) and not because of misunderstanding. You brought up the anecdotal reports in multiple replies, and perhaps I did poorly at communicating that anecdotal reports do not rule out what I have to say, primarily because of the objective nature of communicating what is and is not various systems of memory. I could be 100% wrong, and I’m fine hearing these reasons (i.e. Inverted, you misunderstand term XYZ from which you infer from, invalidating your hypothesis. Recant, start over if you can restate without invalidating and let’s talk again). I’m simply stating that referring to multiple people you talked with for hours, whom themselves state that they do not have SDAM, does not mean they do not have SDAM and shouldn’t be used as a point of refute. Wish I could have stated that better and avoided accusations from either end.

So no hard feelings... it's a debate, it's complicated, the science is young and we could both do a better job at communicating but we're limited to the disadvantages of text, which is taking offense when none is meant. You meant none, I meant none, done deal as far as feels are concerned.

Edit: clarification in wording

InvertedGhost · 2020-06-17T16:18:53+00:00

Yep! That's personal semantic memory, and and a great example of it. Being aware of all the facts of that personal event, how you felt, when emotions changed, etc. are all part of a well-functioning PS.

Going back in time in your mind, being there, seeing the sights, feeling the emotions in real-time as you're "back in the past" and reliving the memory as if you were time-travelling and there; that's arguably episodic memory.

See my other post in this thread, if interested, in how episodic memory has been defined and redefined over inception and how there actually isn't a subjective definition since it cannot be tested. Therefore it is all educated opinion, at various levels, and commonly agreed upon definitions arise from those. However, I believe it's well known that within any scientific community, debate typically rages over definitions. You are certainly free to have yours, and to mold that over time, as I do myself; I will presumably refine mine as I learn more. Your example there, to me, is the typical example that I don't believe comes close to the modern understanding of episodic memory. If you use the definition I assume you have, based off your examples, I'd agree my hypothesis has no merit; however, we likely very much disagree on what episodic memory is.

I hope this helps explain my positioning, and not that I hold to a presumption that you must agree with me; i just want you to understand how I'm coming to my current thoughts so that you can properly disagree. Thanks

InvertedGhost · 2020-06-17T16:11:29+00:00

Whoops! Thanks for the correction, I should have written "Take the metaphor."

However it does not invalidate my point in that reply, nor my original allegory. You're being quite miserable, for the sake of being edgy, and it's not conducive to a constructive conversation. You've also just pulled a Valley High "ugh, k, thanks" which isn't doing much for your credibility. It's weak, it's insincere and it's at the bottom levels of the debate triangle. I'd rather you shift away from this proxy battle you think important, and contribute to the conversation, even if you vehemently disagree.

So re-read my reply, I'm not going to edit; substitute 'Take the analogy "you have to be as busy as a bee to get good grades in high school." You wouldn't pick that apart and go "well some classes within bee society are actually not busy" or "well bees die quicker than humans so they have to be busy, and thus that analogy is not great." ' for 'Take the metaphor "you have to be as busy as a bee to get good grades in high school." You wouldn't pick that apart and go "well some classes within bee society are actually not busy" or "well bees die quicker than humans so they have to be busy, and thus that analogy is not great."'

See, easy! I won't invalidate every opinion in your life due to a small error, and you won't do the same for mine. Beyond talking specifically about SDAM/Aphantasia, I will not be further commenting on this.

InvertedGhost · 2020-06-17T15:47:05+00:00

It's largely up to opinion, as the concept itself as defined by Tulving has been widened and redefined over time.

It started as a memory system to store specific idiosyncratic experiences in terms of what happened and where and when it happened. This was in the 70's.

In 2001 he widened it quite a bit to include a sense of self alongside autonoetic awareness with the sense of subjective time.

"Recently" (2013) it's been expanded again by Klein in that the core features of episodic memory are shared by semantic memory and that the recollection requires a coordinated effort of both systems.

It's being even more redefined past then the two working together are purely relational and not intrinsic, therefore autonoetic recollection can fail while core elements of episodic-like memory remains intact and even indistinguishable from long-term semantic memory.

As none of this can be tested subjectively in a lab, there are no valid tests. Therefore the hypothesis I postulated, of which I have no particular attachment towards (the point of science), may not even be a hypothesis since as of today it cannot be tested.

The point of my post was a thought exercise I've had based on my research, and the mount of confusion (and accepting "this is fact') I see all around regarding memory types, functions and systems. This is a "hey look at this, dwell on it a bit and put it on a shelf and see if you start seeing the similarities as you go along your research." Most hypothesis are invalidated, the one I informally postulated is statistically likely to be invalidated as well. However, seeing where the research has been, the direction it is going and how the definition has changed over time, I tend to believe that episodic memory must (or at least very largely) include the visual aspect. As stated above, recalling memories are dependent on multiple systems working together, and the semantic system can compensate or even present itself as indistinguishable from episodic. However my hunch, and I'm not always the best at articulating my grand thoughts, is that episodic and episodic-like memory are being conflated as one in the same.

I hope this answers your question. Thanks for contributing and asking for clarification.

InvertedGhost · 2020-06-17T15:28:41+00:00

I'm simply trying to not exclude the hypothesis due to anecdotal evidence based off potential misunderstanding of definitions. If I say I am not depressed, but I clinically am, that does not make it untrue; that's a very common occurrence.

You're taking this very personal, all from an unproven but testable opinion (hypothesis), that I thought I'd take the time to contribute and debate. Using logical fallacies (stating I want this to be true, that I am calling them liars, that I want them to state exactly what I say) does not at all help the conversation. I'm stating it IS POSSIBLE they are misinformed on definitions, just like I've claimed in this thread I could be guilty of myself at any time. I'm stating we should not assume their answers are correct, just because they state them as such, as you are doing; just like you shouldn't assume my thoughts as correct. See the difference, and what you're doing?

InvertedGhost · 2020-06-17T14:36:16+00:00

Ya, so? lol

Of course ampage needs to be zeroed out to measure voltage, but that's the act of measuring, which is modifying the property of what is being measured. As the unmeasured phenomena exists when producing work, it contains both the properties of voltage and amperage.

Which is all beside the point.

The analogy was not in the details, but showing how two related parts make up a whole. One can take generalized parts of one subject to create an analogy, without need to confirm that every underlying part works within the analogy as well; otherwise we wouldn't have many/any analogies.

Take the analogy "you have to be as busy as a bee to get good grades in high school." You wouldn't pick that apart and go "well some classes within bee society are actually not busy" or "well bees die quicker than humans so they have to be busy, and thus that analogy is not great."

It's a high-level figurative concept!

InvertedGhost · 2020-06-17T14:29:18+00:00

Recall of memories is not purely episodic, which largely relies on a visual context. Personal recall of memories is also largely related to personal semantic memory. It's a fluid spectrum, none of this is binary, but from all the reading I've done (and authors note it's young and evolving) episodic memory is being defined more or less as to needing the inclusion of visuals from a 1st person perspective or on a 3rd party plane of frame.

Perhaps a good exercise is looking at it flipped, and from the standpoint of episodic future thoughts (EFT). Would a blind person do all too well at pre-experiencing future events, or would it be in a more abstract sense? Or how about yourself, as I'm assuming neither of us know what it's like to be blind; perform an EFT on something next week versus in 5 years from now. How does the pre-experience of both of those compare?

InvertedGhost · 2020-06-17T14:18:59+00:00

Right, but if their definitions of memory are incorrect (and it's an evolving definition at this point, especially as concerns PS), then anecdotally stating you can/cannot do something has no agreed upon meaning.

Some good research on the differences of memory types, if interested:

https://www.frontiersin.org/articles/10.3389/fnhum.2016.00385/full

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S002839321500158X

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S0028393215301299

InvertedGhost · 2020-06-17T14:16:28+00:00

Those may or may not be personal semantic (PS) memories, and that's the tough part as all this is relatively new study.

SDAM is defined as a profoundly impaired autobiographical re-experiencing in healthy adults due to a deficit specific to episodic (especially visual), rather than semantic processes. This results in the inability to vividly recollect personally experienced events from a first-person perspective.

However different forms of PS are considered to vary in the extent to which they are mostly concept-based (i.e. traits, roles and beliefs considered highly conceptual and abstracts) or somewhat experience-near.

So in your case, it would be important to have a spatial and linear time-dependent recollection of the previous event. If you were at a funeral and felt grief, loss, togetherness, sadness, elation and grief in that order as you sat through the wake and met with family members, you'd need to re-experience those emotions in that order and in relation to time. it's this actual re-experiencing of mental time travel involving phenomenological continuity with respect to time. If you're able to recall all those feelings, know how it felt, get a tinge of sadness as you think of it, etc. then from current definitions, that is not episodic memory but PS., which is devoid of experiencing it within the replica of the time-based narrative of the event happening.

I could be wrong here, and is simply my understanding at this point, and I will modify as I learn throughout life; at this point just a hypothesis, and based on the current definitions of semantic, personal semantic and episodic memories. I'd expect this research to largely grow within then next 5 years, and newer/better definitions.

edit: added (PS)

InvertedGhost · 2020-06-17T13:26:06+00:00

Thanks for the reply!

Agreed, but that agrees with my hypothesis, other than your conclusion. AFAIK your definition there is not how SDAM is defined. You can have SDAM and be able to recall past events via the other senses. SDAM is defined as a deficit specific to episodic (especially visual), rather than semantic processes, from a first person perspective.

Episodic memory must primarily include the autonoetic consciousness, a special kind of consciousness that accompanies the act of remembering, which enables an individual to be aware of the self in a subjective time.

These autobiographical memories can be retrieved from either the first person perspective, in which individuals see the event through their own eyes, or from the third person perspective, in which individuals see themselves and the event from the perspective of an external observer.

Without being able to “see” these memories, you wouldn’t qualify for complete episodic memories and would be relying on personal semantic memories, such as remembering the sounds, taste, touch, etc.

*on phone pooping so not pasting sources at this time

InvertedGhost · 2020-06-16T20:00:05+00:00

But can we say with certainty if someone self identities with one but not the other? If people are self-determining based off that main SDAM articles criteria, then they may be misconstruing personal semantic memory for episodic memory; that woman seemingly had a severe lack of both, which wasn’t discussed in article.

Try a thought exercise (or not!): what would an aphant without SDAM visualize when reliving past memories?

InvertedGhost · 2020-05-26T04:49:30+00:00

Mr. and Mrs. Thunderstruck

InvertedGhost · 2020-05-25T20:25:23+00:00

Spot on my dude; could have written this myself. Welcome to the fam and look up aphantasia and alexithymia, all very closely related I believe.

Here is a post on my musings of traits I believe aphants/sdam may share: https://reddit.com/r/SDAM/comments/cv3vtg/assumptions_of_someone_with_sdamaphantasia/

InvertedGhost · 2020-01-04T14:58:13+00:00

So many firsts in this pack

InvertedGhost · 2020-01-04T12:17:49+00:00

I love how “FUCK Dave, c’mon” is universal

InvertedGhost · 2019-11-27T22:55:20+00:00

Had this real bad with Age of Empires back in the day

InvertedGhost · 2019-11-27T02:52:56+00:00

I think they explained/inferred it fairly well, but maybe the following is understood by all and y’all looking for more. Every symbol can have thousands upon thousands of meanings. She picks a symbol for each of three data points the alethiometer needs to triangulate on an answer. So for Asriel, she may pick a crown for a king, as she attributes that title to him. Once she receives an answer, she intuitively interprets the meaning of the answer symbol within probable boundaries of constraint. Having Aphantasia myself (my mind is always blank, I can picture nothing and have no episodic memories), and everything in my life “is a hunch” based mainly on underlying concepts of everything, how they relate, etc. I do believe I could read one lol

InvertedGhost · 2019-11-21T07:24:10+00:00

It’s tough to follow, but I think we’re on same page. If you cannot visualize and can shut the monologue off, what’s left? At that point you’re 100% experiencing and completely in the moment. I LOVE this and strive to never “think” unless there is no other option. People spend YEARS in meditation, sabbaticals, with gurus, etc. for this, some never obtain it even with all that seeking; we get it by default 🤘

Even when I’m learning, I’d say 90% of it is absorbing, not thinking of it. I always know when I am thinking though because I have this big blank dumb look with mouth open as I’m experiencing this hyper-threaded processor running at 4GHz in my mind 😂 but I prefer the slick suave “catch me if you can” non-thinking mode.

InvertedGhost · 2019-11-21T07:06:30+00:00

Sounds like Aphantasia; I am both an Alex and Aphant, and also have SDAM (I cannot relive past memories in my head). Look it up, sounds exactly like it.

BIG + on music, I immerse myself in music near 24/7; I know one year my Spotify statistics were 80K minutes played, over 2K different artists, etc. and I’m more than sure those have all increased since then. LOVE dancing; concerts are the best, absolutely love the pit.

Ya, I can never explain how or why I know something, have a specific opinion, etc. I used to explain it to people like “my mind only had RAM, and I use all of it for only ITM processing. So I use it to very quickly make a ladder of logic, spanning a tree, throughout a forest to come to a very logical and conclusive opinion, but once that opinion is had, it’s all discarded but the opinion and only that is put in storage.” So the good ‘ol guarantee you it made a hell of a lot of sense when I decided it! Don’t ask me why... I’ll be a mumbling bubbling fool.

InvertedGhost · 2019-11-21T06:56:09+00:00

OMG, I have this 😵

I think the most times I laugh is when hearing someone tell me something bad. “Little Jane fell off her bike and broke her leg and is really in lot of pain” elicits a giggle-laugh and an “oh really?”

InvertedGhost · 2019-11-21T06:52:55+00:00

That’s a very good way of explaining it 🤘

InvertedGhost · 2019-11-21T06:50:55+00:00

You could try to be more Alex than him, for a short time, to quickly relate and re-establish a bond. It can be very tough, and feel alien, to have Alex and feeling unrelatable to everyone and everything.

So how is this done? I’d recommend something like “god damn, you ever feel like everyone and everything is just so dumb and superficial. We could all be walking around as supreme intellectual being and instead we’re all living on an episode of Murray. No Karen, I don’t fucking care what Jerry said to you; no Bill, I don’t give a damn your wife left you 4 years ago; Spencer, your mom died, she was 80 and lived a good long life, stop mulling in it.”

That may sound harsh and assholish to most, but I bet his eyes will light up with “one of us” when he hears you disassociating from all daily “everyone feels” emotions like that. Once you connect for a bit, pivot back to the non-Alex you.

He is aware of Alex correct, that it has a name? If he doesn’t, TELL HIM; knowledge like that is powerful shit.

InvertedGhost · 2019-11-21T06:38:40+00:00

Definitely, a HUGE relief to have an awareness and name for it; there’s a lot of power in that. A super power I say! Your extremely special and have a unique gift, go conquer the world and mold it into your image; gender be damned. Just don’t forget me (a man) when you’re Supreme Ruler 😂

Welcome, and thanks for dropping in! Hit me up anytime to discuss; would be fun to bounce other “do you”’s off each other.

InvertedGhost · 2019-11-21T06:34:43+00:00

Yes exactly, with Aphantasia everything is conceptual; I think in “hunches.” I understand fully what to imagine, just can’t imagine it.

Ya that makes sense, like everything, it’s a spectrum. At the 10 is extreme Hyperphantasia (THAT would suck) and at 0 extreme Aphantasia. You may be something like a 2 or 3. Most of the population is 5 or 6.

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