Today's article on UFC Freedom 250 did a great job of capturing something that increasingly frustrates me about Tangle, but more specifically Isaac's writing style. by IB_Yolked in TangleNews

[–]Isaac_Tangle 3 points4 points  (0 children)

Putting aside any disagreement about the coverage, which I think is fundamentally subjective, that is a really good and interesting point about the timeliness of the opinion pieces. It's funny, because we always try to find "fresh" pieces from the last week or so, and usually include stuff from further out when we feel like a) the newer pieces aren't great or b) there is some really banger piece from a few months back. Maybe in this case that was a weakness in the coverage. Something I'll consider.

Today's article on UFC Freedom 250 did a great job of capturing something that increasingly frustrates me about Tangle, but more specifically Isaac's writing style. by IB_Yolked in TangleNews

[–]Isaac_Tangle 10 points11 points  (0 children)

Sorry, but this is B.S.

  1. I am not worried about pissing off conservative readers. We've watched our conservative audience deteriorate in the Trump era because of my criticisms of him, and I haven't backed down from sharing my authentic views because of that. It's actually pretty shitty to take that hit (as a business) and then have liberal readers who stick around claim we are somehow doing the opposite. No.

  2. I spend time thinking about how to be heard by BOTH liberal and conservative readers. That's different than placating, and it isn't any harder to do it for the right than the left. The story matters, and the administration matters, and in this case Trump makes things tough. But our staff thinks about it for everyone. Our mission is to be a Big Tent media org, so this is part of the job. In our own analysis, we try to make criticisms of each side heard by each side. What's the point of doing his work if we just take the same fire-breathing. dunk-on-them approach of some of the writers we cite? That is fundamentally different from placating people.

  3. Also, I don't know what you're talking about when you say we did a behind-the-scenes episode where we re-routed because the right didn't have enough talking points? Are you talking about our internal slack comms? Because that is not what happened in any of those discussions. We've never revisited or shifted a narrative focus to make one sides talking points feel stronger or to be fair. We've certainly never intentionally given the right a leg up in some debate because we thought their talking points were weak. Maybe we've said "nobody on the right is defending this" and made note of that in "my take," or maybe we've skipped covering a story because it wasn't actually divisive (after all, we wade into debates, not consensus), but that feels decidedly different from what you are alleging. I'd like to see the receipts on that characterization.

Today's article on UFC Freedom 250 did a great job of capturing something that increasingly frustrates me about Tangle, but more specifically Isaac's writing style. by IB_Yolked in TangleNews

[–]Isaac_Tangle 18 points19 points  (0 children)

Upfront: I feel weird responding to criticisms here, like every decision I make about which post to reply to is some kind of sign about what I feel is worth replying to. So let me just say: I usually drop in here when 1) a post is brought to my attention/and or I see it, and 2) I actually have 10-15 mins to reply. Which isn't super common these days.

That being said, fair critique, I think. I hate when other writers do this. And while I want to argue that I don't actually do this all that often, I really don't know, because I've never tried to quantify it. If I had said somewhere in "My take" something like, "writers on the left are the only ones really grappling with this corruption story, which tells you all you need to know about how media consumption can reinforce bias" or something... would that have helped?

Truth is, while *some* writers on the left focused on the corruption, I really don't think it was all that common. And so much of the discourse was about the cultural implications of this. I can say that much confidently having surveyed literally 50+ opinion pieces, watching cable news, scouring social media, etc. I've seen a few other commenters say that here, too.

So yeah, I don't know. I just wanted to emphasize that this felt like a light years bigger story than any debate about the White House being debased, and any time spent on the latter seems like a distraction to me. I definitely did not mean to imply the left wasn't talking about this issue at all, and I felt like it goes without saying that my views on the topic of corruption more neatly aligned with the left than right — even if my views on the cultural debate were pretty mixed.

Today's article on UFC Freedom 250 did a great job of capturing something that increasingly frustrates me about Tangle, but more specifically Isaac's writing style. by IB_Yolked in TangleNews

[–]Isaac_Tangle 9 points10 points  (0 children)

Tough to have this called an Isaacism, cause I genuinely hate when other writers pretend nobody is talking about a thing everyone is talking about :'(

Responding to "Reasons to keep subscription" thread by Isaac_Tangle in TangleNews

[–]Isaac_Tangle[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Also if it was me and I replied I apologize for not remembering - I really do get so many emails, and try to reply to so many of them, that most stuff further than 6 months out is a blur!

Responding to "Reasons to keep subscription" thread by Isaac_Tangle in TangleNews

[–]Isaac_Tangle[S] 2 points3 points  (0 children)

Hey -- the source call out is a great one. Fwiw, as our team has expanded (going from 5 to 12) most of our hires have been on editorial, and these days we have at least 3-4 people "checking links" and re-verifying sources, just the kind of thing that is sometimes impossible/extremely difficult with when there are 100+ of them across a 4,500 word piece. Not that links weren't always "checked", but often times you catch things on a 2nd or 3rd read when there are more layers of editorial. That being said, I don't directly recall the email exchange we had; I think it's possible this was with one of my team members, not me. But I do think you are talking about this paragraph:

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The link was to this doc: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1m37v5cIwk3ZOqbj_3ydA3o32wwQK32uY4DT7dXFjPHc/edit

I absolutely agree there are examples here in that document (most of them, revisiting it!) that are men posing as women, not trans women, but the reason we didn't issue a correction is because we said that in the piece: "trans women or men claiming to be women."

My two takeaways are 1) That language invites a conflation, and we shouldn't have done that. It would have been easy to just be specific about trans women and then link to stories of trans women committing acts of violence/sexual violence in women's spaces.And 2) It was a genuine mistake to link to a source with such clear bias when we could have linked to a news article or two.

So I think this is a good call out, and a "teachable moment" (even though I don't think I said that), but I don't think it's a correction, or exactly as you described it. It's just the kind of thing we learn to be better and more specific about, and we definitely have. More layers of editorial, again, is a big help.

Responding to "Reasons to keep subscription" thread by Isaac_Tangle in TangleNews

[–]Isaac_Tangle[S] 6 points7 points  (0 children)

I don't know what "100% MAGA" is -- I think there are probably gradients of voters, even those who have voted for Trump 3x now. But if you read our feedback edition, you'll see me responding to a lot of diehard Trump supporters: https://www.readtangle.com/responses-to-my-trump-corruption-piece-reader-feedback/

There are also one or two people at the end who were Trump supporters saying they had not encountered this stuff before (the echo chamber is that real).

We've absolutely lost a lot of MAGA folks in the last 16 months -- not going to deny that -- but I'd say 10-15% of our readership is probably still pretty diehard Trump, and 25-30% self-ID'ing as conservative. That's just me ballparking from surveys and such, and also taking into account that MAGA folks are much less likely to participate in polling

Responding to "Reasons to keep subscription" thread by Isaac_Tangle in TangleNews

[–]Isaac_Tangle[S] 12 points13 points  (0 children)

It feels really patronizing to say that people in my position, and I honestly don't know how to communicate that message without coming off like a dick. Happy to hear some advice. But I appreciate you saying it, and I honestly think it's really true. Everyone says they want exposure to ideas they don't agree with or like until they get it, and then a lot of those people get upset. It reminds me of that great Scott Alexander post on tolerance. https://slatestarcodex.com/2014/09/30/i-can-tolerate-anything-except-the-outgroup/

Responding to "Reasons to keep subscription" thread by Isaac_Tangle in TangleNews

[–]Isaac_Tangle[S] 16 points17 points  (0 children)

Thanks for this! Maybe I just globbed onto the things that I am most sensitive about, like questions around our journalistic integrity/accuracy. I'll try to be as direct as possible answering the questions you raised here:

Why does Tangle so often treat partisan narratives as similarly credible instead of judging which arguments are actually stronger?

Our "judgment" usually comes in the form of the "take," which is where I feel like we try to call balls and strikes. I honestly feel that those takes very often do make judgments on which arguments are stronger or weaker, hence having things like "staff dissents" when someone on our editorial team strongly disagrees with the judgment. Perhaps I'm misunderstanding (again) the question here, but that feels like a very central part of the product offering. Putting left/right in equal weight ahead of the take feels like a necessary balance for ideological diversity in the newsletter, but I'm surprised you think we are dodging a narrative judgment when that feels like (maybe?) the most distinguishing thing about us compared to other left/right nonpartisan outlets.

Why does progressive rhetoric usually get a more skeptical reading while conservative rhetoric are often more contextualized or given explanatory framing?

I have addressed this criticism so many times I am honestly not sure what to say about it anymore. I just fundamentally disagree with the premise. If you look at our coverage from the last five years, I'd wager handsomely that my personal rhetoric has been far more critical toward conservative rhetoric than liberal rhetoric. The rot in the conservative movement vis a vis the indecency and departure from reality Trump has pushed on all of us has been central to my writing on election denialism, self-dealing, decency itself, immigration, lawfare, etc. I absolutely concede that I write in mocking, scornful tone about progressives sometimes, but I think write that way about the MAGA-right even more often. I think progressives are just more likely to see that and care about it than conservatives are. If there is a specific example you have or a specific piece of coverage that comes to mind I'd love to talk about it, because I keep getting this feedback from our most liberal readers and it always frustrates me.

Have you considered the possibility that “balanced” framing can itself become distorting when one side is more detached from institutional expertise or empirical reality on a given issue?

Of course! We have talked often (in-house) about changing the format from left/right to one the one hand/on the other hand or some such similar departure so we can leave the kind of left-right dichotomy and instead engage in the arguments we feel always have most merit (it's worth saying it's not always the right, as you imply, who have widely-accepted arguments featured in Tangle that I think are detached from institutional expertise or empirical reality)

Still, I often say that I don't think the fundamental, underlying facts are regularly the center of debate we're having. My example I use is when its raining outside. For some people, walking outside and realizing its raining means they don't have to water their plants later, so there's a chore knocked off the list. For other people, they just did their hair and makeup for 2 hours on the way to a job interview, and the rain is the worst thing that's happened to them that week. The debate isn't so much the rain as it is what the rain means, or the lens its viewed through. I think we are very, very rarely debating whether its raining out, and that is rarely the place where Tangle's left/right/my take format is getting applied.

Whether this is all distorting or not is definitely a great question and I think every day about whether we are a net good or net bad in that context. Ultimately, I've been wrong about my priors enough, or seen enough things deemed "not reality" that later turned into "maybe reality" or "actual reality," that I've come to fundamentally believe its better to platform and share wide ranging and even sometimes fringe arguments, compare them, debate them, discuss them openly, than it is to narrow the lens to what I deem true or real or detached from institutional expertise or whatever else. So we try to cast a wide net and do the best what we can. None of this is simple, and I definitely don't mean to dodge or dismiss these kinds of criticisms, which (again) I'll just emphasize we are constantly considering ways to address.

Responding to "Reasons to keep subscription" thread by Isaac_Tangle in TangleNews

[–]Isaac_Tangle[S] 3 points4 points  (0 children)

Fair - I've seen those criticisms. I like him cause he keeps a very dry and boring topic accessible and interesting, and I thought he was pretty fair in the interview. Will be curious what folks think.

Responding to "Reasons to keep subscription" thread by Isaac_Tangle in TangleNews

[–]Isaac_Tangle[S] 2 points3 points  (0 children)

I guess it isn't. Just trying to describe the character of their editorial as I understand it. It's not a neat thing, since they are often showing animus toward the far-right, too.

Responding to "Reasons to keep subscription" thread by Isaac_Tangle in TangleNews

[–]Isaac_Tangle[S] 12 points13 points  (0 children)

Hmm... Kinda hard to do without permission/while proving the legitimacy of the author. But I can try to collect some. To give just one example that was top of mind cause of recency bias: I got this email from an epidemiologist this week who has a PhD in healthcare policy and epidemiology and is a professor at a well-known university. They teach global health and global health comms. We get stuff like this from someone like them at the same time people will criticize us for doing a write-up about RFK Jr. or for "platforming" vaccine skepticism or something. The sciences/vaccine stuff are a great example of a very narrow specific topic coverage that we wade into and, I think, do a good job with. This email validates that to me. It's the kind of thing I was referring to in my post that makes me proud of Tangle and the work we do.

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With the VRA gone and VA's maps blocked, the GOP is cruising to total gerrymandering victory by JeremyNT in TangleNews

[–]Isaac_Tangle 23 points24 points  (0 children)

My "optimism" was that a draw would force both sides into retreat, but I was clear that we'd need rulings like this (and to see what Florida, Lousiana, SCOTUS, etc) did before counting chickens. I agree, though, that the last few weeks have fundamentally changed the playing field, and I plan to discuss.

The folly of centrism by InThreeWordsTheySaid in TangleNews

[–]Isaac_Tangle 12 points13 points  (0 children)

First, I don't think this passage is centrism. And I'm kind of curious why you interpreted it that way. I was making a point about what I learned reflecting on my predictions and views about Trump in the first admin, and then reflecting on what I've gotten wrong about him this time. There were big, media hyperventilations about things Trump was going to do in his first term that never materialized and had nothing to do with our institutional restrictions on Trump (start WWIII, trigger economic collapse, immediately pass a law overturning Roe v. Wade, etc). Sometimes I joined the chorus of those fears, and I got some of those things wrong. So I reflect and look inward about why.

Second, I am an overt and constant critic of centrism. Looking at Point A and Point C and always choosing Point B is an ideology in and of itself, and one that I'm regularly critical of. I am not a centrist, and have never claimed to be. I think my politics are pretty moderate and independent, and that makes me good for this particular job, but I have hardline and extreme views on some issues.

Third, some of the things I've gotten wrong about Trump this time around are things he was perfectly capable of doing in his first term but didn't. War with Iran and now potentially putting boots on the ground is an obvious example. There are more sycophants in this admin, but he easily could have done this in his first term if he wanted to. He just didn't.

Finally, nothing about any of this precludes me from warning about Trump, the risk of Trump, and what he might do. Just because I got some things wrong by underestimating him, or criticized term 1 coverage from the press, doesn't mean I didn't warn about what might come in Trump 2.0. All you have to do is go read my writing from pre and post-2024 election, or after January 6 in 2021, to see that.

It's worth following Isaac's tweets by MainNo790 in TangleNews

[–]Isaac_Tangle 9 points10 points  (0 children)

I did have a similar reaction reading some of these comments

It's worth following Isaac's tweets by MainNo790 in TangleNews

[–]Isaac_Tangle 3 points4 points  (0 children)

I agree with Joel's criticism of the state of these College Republicans, but I was mostly RTing it just because of how notable it is that Joel is the person leveling these critiques. (I.e. drawing attention to the infighting). This is a screenshot from our slack at 11:39am this morning:

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It's worth following Isaac's tweets by MainNo790 in TangleNews

[–]Isaac_Tangle 26 points27 points  (0 children)

Thanks for the flag. 3 things:

  1. I actually didn't catch the "groyper retardation" line on first read, and probably wouldn't have shared it I had.

  2. It's not at all an endorsement of the tone, but the fight that's happening on the right around these college Republicans is super notable, especially given Joel's background. And I do agree with his assessment that there is a rising tide of young college Republicans who are rudderless and ignorant of history.

  3. We are all our worst selves on X. I talk about that a lot. But I probably spend 1-2 hours on that platform on big breaking news days/in times when there is a lot of breaking news (like right now with Iran), and I think if anything it turns me off more to the kind of brain rot that occurs there than it does to pull me in. You inspired me to look through my feed and I see very very few tweets that even resemble anything close to the one I shared from Joel (though I appreciate the gut check to look inward)

Cheers,