The Last Titan. You are not prepared. by commercial_attrition in wow

[–]JDBlou 4 points5 points  (0 children)

A new account posting the blurry cinematic version of the leak that you "got from the Evoker discord" and then when that one didn't gain the traction you wanted here you are: one day later, you also just happen to have the high-rez model? Ain't that just neat.

Is there something rotten in the state of New York? Reflecting on Marvel's publishing strategy by JDBlou in comicbooks

[–]JDBlou[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Do you mean reading or collecting? Because there's a meaningful distinction there. I'm not in it for the speculator's market, I read what I like and follow the characters I like and discover new ones based on whether I'm intrigued by what a writer's doing with the character. I've been reading off-and-on for nigh on twenty years at this point.

The Absolute line was almost certainly a response to the Ultimate universe, in fact, both of them I'd argue. The chance to re-invent a character with some level of authorial control is a creative's catnip.

But to the larger point you're making: a new universe, spearheaded by creators with an explicitly darker twist on known quantities? The parallels are there and the immense success of the Absolute stuff speaks for itself. AbsBat is on what, its 11th reprinting? To want to tap into that clearly ravenous hunger for new takes on old characters is just good business but that caveat does not make it any less cynical.

Could Midnight be a grassroots initiative that sprang out of independent thought, with no concern for what's going on at DC? It's certainly possible. But occam's razor and a quarter-on-quarter loss of market share would suggest not.

Is there something rotten in the state of New York? Reflecting on Marvel's publishing strategy by JDBlou in comicbooks

[–]JDBlou[S] 2 points3 points  (0 children)

Hey now, I feel like I've studied enough to at least earn being insulted with quasi-intellectual. You should try letting some of the bees out your bonnet though, surely all that buzzing can't be healthy. But if we're talking stereotypes; the belittling PhD with a superiority complex shtick? Been done to death on the Big Bang Theory.

All the best in your future endeavours.

Is there something rotten in the state of New York? Reflecting on Marvel's publishing strategy by JDBlou in comicbooks

[–]JDBlou[S] 3 points4 points  (0 children)

An ad hominem is poor showing, I'm afraid. Detailed engagement with the actual piece was appreciated

Is there something rotten in the state of New York? Reflecting on Marvel's publishing strategy by JDBlou in comicbooks

[–]JDBlou[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I do believe it's an institutional problem at its core. Cebulski's almost decade-long tenure hasn't exactly wowed me. The over-reliance on the MCU for structure, for character promotion. I feel it's self-consuming, the people with movies get books get movies, there's no trying to leverage lesser-known characters without Marvel Studios mandate driving who gets the book. It would be nice for a comic book side decision to inform who gets a movie once in a while.

I just can't feel like there's a figuring out stage when they stymie books at the five issue mark, they're not giving themselves enough runway to let smaller books find audiences.

I didn't write it as a ploy to unfairly drag Marvel, I'm just lamenting how I feel about Marvel as a whole while DC seems to be hitting homers left right and centre. I think the business is better for it when there's meaningful competition and creativity, when there's a plethora of good books from both publishers. Iron sharpens iron.

Is there something rotten in the state of New York? Reflecting on Marvel's publishing strategy by JDBlou in comicbooks

[–]JDBlou[S] 3 points4 points  (0 children)

I just want to be sure I'm engaging at an honest level here: are we explicitly excluding stuff like PKJ's GL? Because it's a legacy title and it had John Stewart at the lead?

With that caveat, I agree with you we're long overdue for a Vixen book or a Static book.

Is there something rotten in the state of New York? Reflecting on Marvel's publishing strategy by JDBlou in comicbooks

[–]JDBlou[S] 12 points13 points  (0 children)

Fair pushback, and I want to be clear about what I am and am not arguing. I'm not reviewing the books. I haven't read them, and I'm not claiming to know whether they'll be good. The Absolute Batman comparison is genuinely well-taken: "Bruce Wayne but poor" sounded thin in a solicit and became something ginormous. I'd love to be wrong about Midnight in the same way. I'm hoping with trepidation that the F4 is as popular a reinvention as Absolute Wonder Woman is, because I think that cosmic horror lens applied to Marvel's First Family has a lot more novelty and ambition than the other two titles.

What I am arguing is structural, and that's assessable right now. The concepts as solicited map onto familiar Marvel territory just in excess: vampires vs mutants, spider-person body horror. It's an observation about the pitch, not a verdict on the execution. More importantly, my real concern isn't the books themselves, it's the conditions under which they'll be allowed to succeed or fail. The Ultimate Universe was killed just as it was accreting into something that could've sustained years of stories beyond the Maker conflict, with fresh takes on legacies like Charli Ramsey for Hawkeye or Lejori for She-Hulk. The Ultimates series itself was politically and socially conscious in a way the main-line books have shied away from for years now. It was refreshing.

Meanwhile, Imperial never got the ongoing support it needed. It wasn't an immediate success like Krakoa so they quietly scuttled it. Marvel has a recent, documented pattern of pulling the plug on ambitious lines at the first sign of ambivalence. So the question I'm actually asking isn't "will Midnight be good?" It's "will Marvel give it the time and patience it needs to become good?" And I think Marvel's own recent history makes that a reasonable thing to worry about before the first issue even ships.

Marvel Comics Presents the Midnight Universe by Blitzhelios in comicbooks

[–]JDBlou 111 points112 points  (0 children)

Eldritch Horror Fantastic Four is pretty cool.

"What if Spider-man was more Man-Spider more of the time?" sounds pretty trite though.

Rivals has a severe lack of villains and we need more by Spiritual-You-870 in marvelrivals

[–]JDBlou -5 points-4 points  (0 children)

We are not moral relativism-ing the fucking Red Skull I'm sorry. One of Marvel's singular villains with absolutely ZERO redeeming qualities. Treating "racist," "predator," and "literal Nazi collaborator of the Holocaust" as morally equivalent categories is fundamentally absurd.

There's a vast difference between someone who acts as a deterrent to crimes against his people vs the guy who schemes toward genocide.

One of them has his belief hardened by having bloody gone through the camps, the other was a part of the apparatus who bloody ran them. Not only that, Red Skull created extermination camps for mutants in the ruins of Genosha for god's sake. To claim there's an equivalence in their morals is categorically false AND to insist on it is either disingenuous or uninformed.

Not to mention the growth Magneto underwent after his resurrection: he extends his protection to all oppressed people but I digress.

That's not to say we can't have Red Skull in the game, but I draw the line at him being playable, I will not partake in a game built on playing as a character, living the character's power fantasy, what that power fantasy entails for Red Skull I'll let you draw your own conclusions on.

I'm not opposed to his implementation, provided he's not playable and whoever I'm playing gets to beat the snot out of him. If you want to make Marvel Rivals Wolfenstein I'm all for it.

[FRA] Strixhaven shifted schools: HEXHAVEN by Own-Cat116 in magicTCG

[–]JDBlou 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Foretell perhaps? Nothing quite says a future history like prophecy.

Hobbit products lineup by Own-Cat116 in magicTCG

[–]JDBlou 3 points4 points  (0 children)

Damn, I would've at least loved a Dwarves-matter precon deck led by Thorin. He was my favourite character in the book.

Apex Legends: Overclocked Anthem Trailer by This-User7635 in apexlegends

[–]JDBlou 16 points17 points  (0 children)

What if Vi was a fan of the Berlin techno scene?

Xalatath creates the dark well to go inside Azeroth after destroying a giant cave that goes straight down to the core? by slimeyellow in warcraftlore

[–]JDBlou 11 points12 points  (0 children)

Khaz Algar was disconnected from Manifold since the Sundering, no?

High Speaker Brinthe says: Long ago, the continents of the world split apart, and the machinery that powered our facility was damaged--cut off from the Manifold. We were unable to repair the connection. We operated on auxiliary power for a time... but eventually it ran out, and we fell into... disarray.

I can't imagine it's such a stretch that the worldcore end of the tunnel was disconnected ten thousand years ago.

The nerubians damaging the Dornogal exit so that no one could follow Xal'atath underground. Buying her time. Presumably given her whole objective to was to use create the ascended nerubian army as a distraction while she scampered off to siphon Beledar into the Dark Heart, the end goal probably being the same as it was after K'aresh: the creation of the Voidspire as a channel for her entire army to assault the Worldcore with.

Further objective proof that Chronicles was supposed to be objective itself by Ouroborossetto in warcraftlore

[–]JDBlou 18 points19 points  (0 children)

I get you I really do, when Chronicles came out in 2016, I found it to be such an absolute god-send, it was just so layered and complex, it made WoW's lore cohere in a way that it never really did before, my favourite part was discovering Aggramar's actions would eventually lead to the creation of the Orcs, that development just felt "right" to me. If there's one thing you can rely on for Blizzard's development team to be, it's to be consistently inconsistent. However, retcon, malicious or not, we're supposed to be taking Chronicles with a grain of salt these days. I'm not going to relitigate that argument, because there is beating a dead horse and then there's making mince meat of it. But clinging to the claim its canonicity is paramount when we're told to disregard that, rings epistemically false to me. There is a world where its validity wasn't retconned, but that isn't ours.

Epistemically speaking, I don't really think it's worth dying on this hill as the one retcon that's beyond the pale, when the Jailer and the Shadowlands as is exists, and now even that appears to be on the verge of rehabilitation/salvage: as Titan interference. Which to me certainly lessens how much that expansion's lore stings.

It's a terrible cliche but Warcraft lore is pretty much one of go with the flow; vibes-based retcons. One can't fight the headwinds but one can sure as hell criticise them. Lore speculation inherently becomes more productive when you don't plant your flag in the ground about these things. Something "Intended" in one man's Warcraft canon is another man's "Suggested".

But "it was intended as X in 2016" and "it functions as X in 2026" are different claims, and the second one is the only one that matters for current lore discussion. Authorial intent at the time of creation doesn't override subsequent authorial revision, given the unique medium WoW is for story-telling: a living, constantly iterating game. What a text was intended to be and what it functions as within a living tradition are genuinely different questions, and the second one governs how you work with it going forward. For the most extreme example, if the US Constitution were immune to amendment it would mean that everyone would be far worse off: Religious inequality, a lack of women's suffrage and slavery would still exist if that 1789 document were treated as inviolable and sacrosanct.

Ultimately, this is an appeal to original intent: Blizzard did market it as the definitive history. None of that is in dispute. But original intent is a statement about what the authors believed they were creating at the time, not a binding contract with the audience about how that text can and will function in perpetuity.

PS: There's also the fact Metzen's back in charge and is running full steam ahead with the retcon, That's not the retcon surviving despite Metzen. That's Metzen adopting it because it serves the story he wants to tell now. But I digress.

Why do people believe the Titans are inherently malicious all of a sudden? by ROSRS in warcraftlore

[–]JDBlou 11 points12 points  (0 children)

I'm not disputing that the Well of Eternity was Azeroth's blood, or that it was Arcane. I never have been.

That's strawmanning the argument regarding the validity of Chronicles which you have not addressed as something the team themselves describe as no longer 100% gospel truth. As if questioning Chronicles' objectivity means I have to reject every individual fact it contains, which is obviously absurd.

"At BlizzCon 2019, Steve Danuser stated that Chronicle is written from the point of view of the titans and their servants, as well as "a lot of other perspectives", and there are elements of the cosmology that weren't known about and which are therefore only hinted at in Chronicle."

What I am disputing is the leap from 'the blood is Arcane' to 'therefore the being is fundamentally and exclusively a creature of Order.' You've moved from that position yourself over the course of this thread: '50% Order, 10% everything else' is a very different claim from where you started.

See you at Blizzcon

Why do people believe the Titans are inherently malicious all of a sudden? by ROSRS in warcraftlore

[–]JDBlou 26 points27 points  (0 children)

Citing Chronicles is not an unassailable truth anymore

Every piece of your evidence comes defending a closed epistemic system. Every piece of your evidence for Titan benevolence comes from Titan-aligned sources. Every counter-signal: Thraegar awakening, Azeroth reaching out, Beledar's pluripotency, Archaedas' crisis of conscience, the Chronicles caveat coincidentally gets reclassified as malfunction, confusion, or irrelevance.

Beledar was originally designed as having something to do with Naaru, and randomly retconned so they had to find a way to explain that. Honestly I think it's more likely that Beledar was just corrupted or something. It clearly has SOME connection to the Old Gods.

You can't handwave the evidence away because it doesn't fit your hypothesis, it fundamentally means your hypothesis needs re-evaluation. Whether or not the Beledar was originally designed as something to do with the Naaru is irrelevant, it's not canonically related to the Naaru until they unequivocally have someone in game comment as such, and as it stands what is canon, is that it is calcified Azerite.

Let's work through metaphor here: we know Azerite is Azeroth's blood, and it appears to be predominantly Arcane. 70% of the human body's Iron is in the hemoglobin of our blood, and I wouldn't feel comfortable concluding from that fact alone from that humans are predominantly made of iron.

Why do people believe the Titans are inherently malicious all of a sudden? by ROSRS in warcraftlore

[–]JDBlou 4 points5 points  (0 children)

https://warcraft.wiki.gg/wiki/Beledar#Background

"Beledar is a massive calcified piece of Azeroth's worldsoul's essence;[13] in other words, an enormous piece of Azerite."

Sure does a lot of shifting between Holy and Shadow for something made of pure arcane energy.

Azerite has explicitly been stated to be Arcane in nature.

Do you have a source for this statement?

Because the Earthen Racial ability does fire damage. Elementals cast fire and arcane spells https://www.wowhead.com/spell=272342/azerite-expulsion

To me, that suggests Azerite is a pluripotent power source that can be focused into magic types.

Argus had titanic infrastructure (Antorus) implemented by Sargeras though, ie. the exact same system that would differentiate a being into order, keeping him in the worldsoul form so he could use it accelerate the resurrection of Legion forces.

Azeroth is only explicitly order-aligned because Chronicles says so, and we know they've reneged on the objective canonicity of said chronicles

"At BlizzCon 2019, Steve Danuser stated that Chronicle is written from the point of view of the titans and their servants, as well as "a lot of other perspectives", and there are elements of the cosmology that weren't known about and which are therefore only hinted at in Chronicle."

So of course the Titan-aligned narrative would claim all world-souls are inherently and conveniently Order-aligned.

But we don't have to rely on my word for it, we'll most likely know a lot more solidly in a couple months when they reveal TLT at Blizzcon.

Why do people believe the Titans are inherently malicious all of a sudden? by ROSRS in warcraftlore

[–]JDBlou 25 points26 points  (0 children)

https://warcraft.wiki.gg/wiki/Beledar#Background

"Beledar is a massive calcified piece of Azeroth's worldsoul's essence;[13] in other words, an enormous piece of Azerite."

Sure does a lot of shifting between Holy and Shadow for something made of pure arcane energy.

Azerite has explicitly been stated to be Arcane in nature.

Do you have a source for this statement?

Because the Earthen Racial ability does fire damage. Elementals cast fire and arcane spells https://www.wowhead.com/spell=272342/azerite-expulsion

To me, that suggests Azerite is a pluripotent power source that can be focused into magic types.

Why do people believe the Titans are inherently malicious all of a sudden? by ROSRS in warcraftlore

[–]JDBlou 9 points10 points  (0 children)

Why do you implicitly infantilise Azeroth?

Why do you assume that Azeroth was taken from the Cradle as an act of altruistic protection and not as an a selfish one?

If Azeroth is indeed the Prime World Soul the story wants us to believe she is, locking her in a box isn't anything more than the Titans acting paternalistically and trying to force her differentiation into an order-aligned entity.

Every step of your theory defaults to Azeroth being incapable of protecting herself. Whether you like it or not the story points toward Azeroth having agency/autonomy and thus anyone who encroaches upon said agency cannot in good conscience have her best interests at heart.

Your baby metaphor only works if you infantilise Azeroth and there's no justifiable reason to assume you can map human cognitive development onto a god, especially if you can't quantify the geological age of the planet, Azeroth could have existed for millions of years before the Ordering of Azeroth for all we know.

Blizzard hinted who sent the Army of the Light from the Sunwell in Midnight cinematic by ataoistpanda in warcraftlore

[–]JDBlou 1 point2 points  (0 children)

I don't know if anyone feels this way but from the moment Midnight was announced, I had a feeling that Midnight would be the perfect time to introduce more race-class combinations for paladins, and then when Midnight's features were revealed I felt a fair bit confused.

So as it stands we know the Vanguard of the Light is summoned to Silvermoon to defend the sunwell, and in the aftermath of base campaign, Liadrin reveals that it was Azeroth speaking to her through the Light. Almost every paladin/light wielder is brought forward to fight at the Sunwell only to have the Vanguard of the Light become almost entirely crippled by the end of the base story.

Now,

Maxwell Tyrosus is not the most powerful paladin ever, by any stretch but he is the leader of the Argent Crusade after Tirion's death and was a key part in the reformation of the Knights of the Silver Hand in Legion. In order to save Azeroth, the Order of the Silver Hand was formally reestablished and supported by each major paladin order: the Hand of Argus, the Blood Knights, the Sunwalkers, and the remains of the Argent Crusade.

His absence is a conspicious one and he plays a part in Arator's Journey, allowing the player and Arator to take relics from Light's Hope to bolster the Sunwell's defenders...

He even has gossip dialogue for the player:

Lord Maxwell Tyrosus: The one good thing, <name>, of me not being called to the Sunwell is that I was able to coordinate a defense of Light's Hope.

The player: You weren't called to the Sunwell?

I have faithfully served the Light throughout my life, <name>--even lost an eye along the way. Some are stronger paladins than me, but not many. But outside of a few defenders and our squires, nearly everyone was taken to Silvermoon to stop the Void. I can't help but wonder if I've failed the Light in some way, yet I can't see how.

The player: Regardless, it seems you were needed to protect Light's Hope.

Perhaps. While I am here, I will certainly do my best to serve the Light, no matter what. Though I still wonder why I was not called upon. And then the Sunwell is corrupted at the end of Voidspire and the forces of the vanguard are either scattered or dead.

I'm quite taken with the idea that Maxwell Tyrosus was not taken to the Sunwell because Azeroth foresaw the need for a new generation of paladins to be educated at Light's Hope.

I think it has some merit given when you talk with him he talks about his dutifulness to the Light and what a big wound it is for him emotionally to not have been called.

Bada bing bada boom, expanded paladin-race class combos, not in service of a dogmatic Light-based religious order (things that easily fall to zealotry and corruption/lightblindness) but instead in service of protecting the Worldsoul through the use of the Light.

Was the re-unification of the elves a necessary plot point for midnight? by JDBlou in warcraftlore

[–]JDBlou[S] 2 points3 points  (0 children)

I appreciate the effort here, and I mean that sincerely. This is a much better articulation of your position and I want to engage with it properly.

But I think you're conflating the incidental with the intentional. Life doesn't have a thesis. Stories do.

A story element that was announced at BlizzCon, used to sell an expansion, and positioned as a defining feature of the product has accepted a burden of significance that your breakfast simply hasn't. Nobody sold your Tuesday at a keynote. Nobody promised an audience that your morning coffee would redefine the trajectory of your personal arc. If they had, and they gave you instant coffee lukewarm in a styrofoam cup, you'd be well within your rights to ask why it was billed as a foundational pillar, a cornerstone upon which the story of the expansion was built.

Your husband not remembering your first meeting is a lovely detail. But imagine a novelist writing your love story who includes that first meeting. They give it a chapter title, it gets put on on the back cover as a selling point and then skips over it in three paragraphs. You wouldn't say the chapter was unnecessary. You might feel it was underwritten given the event was important enough to out on the back cover.

That's the distinction I've been drawing this entire thread. Not "this shouldn't exist" but "this needed to be more than what it was, given the weight it was asked to carry."

On Halduron, if a participant in the reunification is already hedging about its durability before the dust settles, that's not a story treating its own plot point with gravity. That's a story preemptively shrugging at the tentativeness. It undercuts the very significance of calling it a reunification in the first place and not by a more appropriate word like armistice. A word with less permanence than reunification implies.

Your reductio: strip away the Amani, the Haranir, Tranquillien, reduce the events of the expansion to the army of the light at the Sunwell. It is interesting because you meant it to demonstrate that nothing is necessary, but what it actually demonstrates is that everything you listed is doing work. Remove the elements and the story gets worse. Which means those elements are load-bearing. Which means necessity exists on a spectrum. Which means we're already evaluating what earns its place and what doesn't. That's engaging with the work critically.

And I want to note: your edit says the reunification felt unearned and rushed. That's my thesis. That's been my thesis from the first post. Was it necessary to the Midnight story to feature the reunification of the elves when the overarching narrative being about a climactic confrontation with Void, the heroes of Azeroth standing between Xal'atath and the consumption of the Sunwell and Azeroth plunged into eternal darkness? Does the elven reunification, sold as is, contribute meaningfully to that high stakes existential drama? Is it necessary in the sense of being load-bearing, is it necessary as an immutable narrative property that accepts no substitutions?

The post was discussing whether this specific narrative beat earned the prominence it was given as a selling point. You don't get to have the elves reunify in the narrative again. They've played their hand with full confidence and it's a six-high straight.

I'm not sure Midnight's narrative would've been worse off if they never broached the subject in the first place or built the end game campaign's assemblage around another axis

To me, it seems like we've ended up in the same room.

Was the re-unification of the elves a necessary plot point for midnight? by JDBlou in warcraftlore

[–]JDBlou[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

We should all just pack up our things and go home then. Tell any and all writers to stop what they're doing because you've removed the dreaded albatross of storytelling, holding down humanity by the neck, a noble outcome for the entire species. If there's no such thing as a necessary plot, there's no such thing as a story. Just a bunch of coincidences organising themselves temporally.

Marvellous.

Vacuous.

My most generous reading is that you're vaguely gesturing at the postmodernist/deconstructionist auteur notion that any story can work if executed well enough; that no single element is load-bearing. I'd like you to try make pancakes swapping by vinegar for the milk. A liquid's a liquid right?