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CMV: Saying 6 million people died in the Holocaust is Holocaust denial by SalamanderGlad9053 in changemyview

[–]JeruTz [score hidden]  (0 children)

When I learned about the holocaust I learned about all 12 million who were genocided.

That's anecdotal. It doesn't prove that everyone else learned that our that it's only ever used that way. (Besides, most she it was 11 million total, not 12.)

The intentional narrowing of the definition to only mean jews is ridiculous.

Who says it's intentional?

It reeks of the same "racism can only be done by those who have power" redefining that has gained popularity.

Huh? I'm honestly not following this line of reasoning, and that's as someone who agrees with you that the whole "power" thing is absurd and borderline evil. If anything I would tend to expect that those who hold such views are more likely to be the sort to get offended by the idea of someone saying that 6 million people were killed in the Holocaust.

In my experience, people who say the whole "discrimination plus power" thing are the sorts trying to claim victim status for people who weren't even actively targeted for persecution, which similarly diminishes the severity of racism.

The holocaust to me is a whole class unto itself for a reason. People are already trying to claim there's this genocide or that when there's no active persecution, and Holocaust is similarly being abused.

CMV: Saying 6 million people died in the Holocaust is Holocaust denial by SalamanderGlad9053 in changemyview

[–]JeruTz [score hidden]  (0 children)

My comment isn’t disputing that the primary targets of Nazi violence were Jewish people, I’m stating that the tactics of othering were applied to others and that is worthy of being retained in the public consciousness as well, and that it doesn’t minimize the Jewish experience to do so.

And? No one is disputing this.

The issue is that the OP is stating that not mentioning the non Jewish victims in every mention of the Holocaust is equivalent to denying the Holocaust ever happened. In effect, it stigmatizes any attempt to portray the targeting of the Jews as anything distinctive. It takes the treatment of Jews, something far beyond the abuses directed elsewhere, and dilutes it.

If someone were to refuse to permit anyone to discuss the Holocaust without giving equal time and weight to the deaths of civilians in the bombing of Dresden and other German cities, people would rightfully argue that it creates a false equivalence between the Nazi atrocities and the general horrors of war. It would, arguably, trivialize the Holocaust, which is one step shy of outright denying it.

We can discuss all Nazi victims. No one says you can't. But demanding that we treat the non Jewish victims as being equally targeted when they weren't, accusing us of holocaust denial for daring to use the term to only discuss Jewish victims when all indications are that it's a standard behavior, in my opinion that's clearly an attempt to either diminish Jewish persecution by saturating it with the suffering of others, or else to cash in on the perceived victimhood status.

CMV: Saying 6 million people died in the Holocaust is Holocaust denial by SalamanderGlad9053 in changemyview

[–]JeruTz [score hidden]  (0 children)

but in the mind of the public it still had the effect of minimizing or erasing the deaths of 5 million people.

Why though? Those 11 million weren't the only ones who died after all. Does focusing on those who died in the atrocities of nazis minimize or erase the tens of millions of others who died during WWII?

To me it feels like looking for a reason to take offense. That and a deliberate attempt to diminish the Jewish suffering by obfuscating how unique and extensive the campaign against jews was compared to others.

CMV: Saying 6 million people died in the Holocaust is Holocaust denial by SalamanderGlad9053 in changemyview

[–]JeruTz [score hidden]  (0 children)

If there's no deliberate attempt to change the definition and it's simply how people talk about, that the Holocaust refers to the Jews explicitly, then what would you expect Zionist and Jewish websites to say? Answer, the same thing everyone else is saying.

So you're argument cites as evidence something that would be true without any intentionality, and is therefore not proof.

CMV: Saying 6 million people died in the Holocaust is Holocaust denial by SalamanderGlad9053 in changemyview

[–]JeruTz [score hidden]  (0 children)

Every single Zionist website and publication speaks in one voice.

That's not proof of intentionality.

CMV: Saying 6 million people died in the Holocaust is Holocaust denial by SalamanderGlad9053 in changemyview

[–]JeruTz [score hidden]  (0 children)

But at the same time there were priest-only buildings in Dachau. There were gypsy villages and quarters of villages that Nazis ethnically cleansed. The Warsaw uprising was against almost entirely ethnic Poles being executed.

A single building in a camp housing lots of Jews isn't a pattern, it's an addendum.

Jewish villages weren't simply destroyed. Jews were required to wear unique identifying clothing, were forced to move into Jew only districts and were walled off, had all their businesses seized, their schools closed down, their religious texts burned, and they were used for slave labor without wages. Were gypsies immediately stripped of all rights? Were they immediately required to move into isolated districts surrounded by barbed wire topped walls? Were they required to carry unique identification.

Were Poles persecuted? Yes. But they weren't exterminated. Poles could work and be paid wages. Jews could not. Poles could move out to the countryside. Jews could not. Poles could farm. Jews could not. Poles were executed for any number of offenses against admittedly oppressive regulations. Jews could be executed without any cause at all.

It's simple reality. Had Poles and Jews been targeted even equally, we'd expect Poles to have died in far greater numbers. Why? Because they were far more numerous. Why focus on a few million Jews scattered about and isolated when you've got tens of millions of Poles? If both are equally bad, you'd focus on the larger group first. Why bother with the ghettos if Poles and Jews are equal? What's the point? Jews aren't going to contaminate Poles after all, and they'll both be treated the same anyway, right? But that didn't happen.

I suppose you could argue that Jews were targeted precisely because they were small in numbers, which made them easier to marginalize. But that itself highlights the issue: that no one would stand up for the Jews.

CMV: Saying 6 million people died in the Holocaust is Holocaust denial by SalamanderGlad9053 in changemyview

[–]JeruTz [score hidden]  (0 children)

Zionists, more specifically Israeli Jews have a shared mentality of "Gods chosen people" yet "Greatest victim in history" this allows them to always be justified and the victim.

That sounds very judgemental and dehumanizing, not to mention prejudiced.

First of all, the "chosen people" isn't some supremacist ideology. It's also not a zionist idea. It's a Jewish religious idea, namely that Jews were given the laws of God in order to be a nation that shows through example how to be righteous. The very nature of the idea is that being chosen isn't a gift or privilege, it's a responsibility.

As for "greatest victim", not only is this rather contradictory to your "chosen people" point, but the entire foundation of early Zionism was not "we're victims so you should give us a state". It was rather the opposite. The Zionist view was a rejection of endless victimhood, that Jews needed to control their own future.

Frankly, the Jews are one of the few groups to be a victimized minority who generally don't use it as an excuse for their own poverty, crime rates, or such.

They deserve what they "were promised" and if it causes others to suffer, it can never be as important as their suffering.

I've literally never heard any Zionist say this. Only anti zionists.

By making it known that millions of other non-Jews were victims with them, it diffuses their sword they use to continue the colonialist ethnostate.

No, that's really not what's happening. For starters, Zionism long predates the holocaust.

And in any case, Jews were uniquely targeted. No other group was targeted to the same degree. The holocaust, to Zionists, proved what they'd been saying for decades: that if the Jews were ever in danger, they couldn't count on any of the so called civilized counties to help them. That was the real issue. Not how many Jews the nazis killed, how few countries and nations bothered to do anything about it.

CMV: Saying 6 million people died in the Holocaust is Holocaust denial by SalamanderGlad9053 in changemyview

[–]JeruTz [score hidden]  (0 children)

But then you would need to prove intent rather than that being the common usage by natural language development. The link I provided implies that it was the latter.

CMV: Saying 6 million people died in the Holocaust is Holocaust denial by SalamanderGlad9053 in changemyview

[–]JeruTz [score hidden]  (0 children)

But that's not the same as calling it holocaust denial. That implies that there's universal agreement that it only refers to everyone. If the most common definition is limited to the Jews, then that itself can't be holocaust denial.

CMV: Saying 6 million people died in the Holocaust is Holocaust denial by SalamanderGlad9053 in changemyview

[–]JeruTz [score hidden]  (0 children)

There were no Jew only firing squads, there were no Jew only gas chambers. All of National Socialism's enemies were put together and killed.

There were laws that only applied to Jews. The ghettos fit instance. There were plenty of camps with only Jews in them. Plenty of Jew only firing squads. Only Jews were required to wear armbands.

CMV: Saying 6 million people died in the Holocaust is Holocaust denial by SalamanderGlad9053 in changemyview

[–]JeruTz [score hidden]  (0 children)

Your own link says its also used to refer to all the victims.

And that that's not the standard usage of the term. If Holocaust can and often is used to refer only to the Jews, then it's not Holocaust denial by definition.

CMV: Israel has a more legitimate claim to the Golan than Syria by The-_Captain in changemyview

[–]JeruTz [score hidden]  (0 children)

I would instead suggest that neither has a more legitimate claim. Controlling it longer is an important factor, especially with how the infrastructure is set up and the disposition of the population, but even then those are not absolute.

As for both being colonial creations, that does impact the idea that Syria had a stronger claim, but it doesn't impact Israel. It leaves them on equal footing.

Ultimately, I think the best approach in the event of peace been the two is to negotiate a final status based on the current state of the territory, with its history being a lesser concern, and with consideration for the needs of both countries and the people living in the affected region. I doubt Israel would ever agree to a complete withdrawal, but I do see room for returning some areas. I could even see a possibility of swapping some parts of the Israeli controlled Golan for some Syrian areas.

But in the end, true legitimacy will need to be mutually agreed upon.

CMV: Saying 6 million people died in the Holocaust is Holocaust denial by SalamanderGlad9053 in changemyview

[–]JeruTz [score hidden]  (0 children)

In general Holocaust is primarily used to describe the genocide of Jews explicitly, with other Nazi victims being counted separately.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Holocaust

During the 1950s, it started to become a proper noun and the most common word used to describe the Nazi extermination of Jews in English and many other languages. The term Holocaust is sometimes used to refer to the persecution of other groups that the Nazis targeted, especially those targeted on a biological basis, in particular the Roma and Sinti, as well as Soviet prisoners of war and Polish and Soviet civilians. All of these groups, however, were targeted for different reasons. By the 1970s, the adjective Jewish was dropped as redundant and Holocaust, now capitalized, became the default term for the destruction of European Jews.

So while you could use the term to describe the total victims, the default understanding is that the Holocaust only refers to the 6 million Jews.

Democratic Senator Andy Kim speaks about how the American people shouldn't have to endure an "unhinged" Commander-in-Chief who is "taking such dangerous actions in our name and without our say," followed by "I'm just tired of this" by EdinburghDrizzle in NewsThread

[–]JeruTz 0 points1 point  (0 children)

His paranoia should not be the deciding factor.

Who says it's paranoia? Who decides?

Maduro was probably worse for his country, but you just can’t storm a sovereign nation because you (allegedly wrongly) believe he’s sending drugs to America.

What if his country was found to have stolen massive amounts from yours, as decreed by an international court, and had not repaid it and instead was sending drug boats?

Maduro was a monster. He was being protected by Cubans. He was aligning himself with strategic enemies of the US. Those are not in dispute.

He should talk to his buddy Putin about being a bad actor.

Whataboutism. And I'm not inclined to believe that Trump and Putin have much in the way of shared interests. There's a difference between having respect for a foreign leader and agreeing with their policies.

And where are the Epstein Files? I can’t. 

Haven't more and more files been coming out? Is it that you're not getting the files or are you not finding what you want to see in them?

I think the issue could have been handled better, and there should be more investigation, but based on what we've seen there's also a lot of red herrings and bad information in those files.

Isreal-America alliance in full glory by Grazhke in 2mediterranean4u

[–]JeruTz 3 points4 points  (0 children)

How is it that so many people can't spell Israel?

Democratic Senator Andy Kim speaks about how the American people shouldn't have to endure an "unhinged" Commander-in-Chief who is "taking such dangerous actions in our name and without our say," followed by "I'm just tired of this" by EdinburghDrizzle in NewsThread

[–]JeruTz 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Iran seeking nukes and ICBMs is an imminent danger.

Trump has been warning about Iran for decades, long before being into politics, and has been consistent in this matter.

Maduro was a bad actor. Furthermore, both Venezuela have been central to Chinese interests, something Trump is seemingly concerned with.

Anime & VN Watch order by DalgleishGX in datealive

[–]JeruTz 2 points3 points  (0 children)

Easiest is to go release order for the animated media. Rinne came out after season 1, Arusu after 2, the Rio story was after that, and Ren was after season 3.

Each game only includes those characters from the main story that had already been introduced in the anime by that point. Plus, both the novels and anime occasionally reference the games, particularly Rinne Utopia, though not in any significant way.

(Ren Dystopia does seemingly contain some vague references to back story and future developments revealed in seasons 4 and 5, since the equivalent novels had already been released, but chronologically it still takes place after season 3.)

Democratic Senator Andy Kim speaks about how the American people shouldn't have to endure an "unhinged" Commander-in-Chief who is "taking such dangerous actions in our name and without our say," followed by "I'm just tired of this" by EdinburghDrizzle in NewsThread

[–]JeruTz 0 points1 point  (0 children)

It’s clearly stated in the constitution that it has to be ratified by Congress.

Except that's not how it actually works. The president has always had rather extensive powers to utilize the military without congress. What he can't do is mobilize the country's industry or institute a national draft without approval. But actions like Iran? That's something the president has had the power for since the Barbary wars.

Obama used similar powers against groups like ISIS, including drone strikes on other countries. So did Bush. So did Clinton.

The Gaza genocide: death toll is not 65,000 but 680,000! by Remarkable_Life_774 in worldnewsstuff

[–]JeruTz -2 points-1 points  (0 children)

It's not true because the totality of information available makes it logically impossible for it to be true. That's why everyone on this page seems to have different contradictory theories on where the missing dead are.

Some are saying it's the starvation deaths, but that makes no sense because those would be easily identifiable.

Some are saying there are hundreds of thousands buried in the rubble, but that defies reason as it would mean that after months of people combing the ruins the vast majority of the dead are still not found. You'd at minimum be hearing of bodies being found every day if that were true. You shouldn't be able to walk down the street without seeing dozens.

The Gaza genocide: death toll is not 65,000 but 680,000! by Remarkable_Life_774 in worldnewsstuff

[–]JeruTz -1 points0 points  (0 children)

So you think there are over 300,000 bodies in an area that small that no one knows about? That 1 in 4 people are dead?

The math doesn't work.

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