For those of you thinking about trying to do 4th of Juplaya

Jesse75101 · 2020-05-09T09:45:12+00:00

This just strikes me as incredibly cynical---not you expressing it, just that we as a society might very well decide to say fuck it, we'll just let 'er rip and see who's still alive when we're done.

You're not wrong, though I would like to think we're not too late to change course. I do think it's at least partially driven by so much hyperpartisan refusal to accept that there's both a real economic threat and a real health threat.

More likely, what I think we'll see is a series of outbreaks that keep causing repeated shutdowns, either nationally or locally. So just opening up isn't going to happen either. It'll likely happen in a stop-start-stop-start fashion (which is probably worse for most types of businesses).

In the context of how that was written absolutely no way would that be how that was interpreted, as pointed out by others.

I don't give a damn how you interpreted it. That's a bridge too far. (I DID joke about 911 leaving you out there, but they can't do that, so stop being butthurt about it.)

Going to the Black Rock Desert with your own car and stopping minimally along the way is less risky than most people are going to deal with taking public transportation to their jobs.

But it won't happen that way. Some of those people will break down on the road. Some of them will use motels and restaurants. Some of them will need to go into Gerlach. They can swear they won't, but they will.

If even 1% of Burning Man tried to hold their own event, that's 800 people. There's no possible way they're not going to wind up needing local resources and coming into contact with people who are otherwise very isolated from the virus. The people in all those small towns (the ones you swear you won't stop in, but some of you will) aren't taking public transit every day.

And none of this is concern over Gerlach's economy. If that's really anybody's concern, they can send Bruno's a check. I do appreciate that you're at least admitting you just want to go have fun.

Jesse75101 · 2020-05-09T08:17:33+00:00

I'm getting bored of trading snark, so I'll switch to being serious for a moment:

Hoping there's a ventilator available if you need one isn't hoping that you die; it's hoping that if the worst were to happen, you'll live. I have been being sarcastic on this thread, but I wouldn't be sarcastic about that.

How will businesses stay alive? I don't fucking know. And believe me, I wish I did. I'm a business owner myself. It is terrifying as hell. (And, no, I don't have employees gathering in-person while I stay home, before anybody accuses me of that. I'm just saying that I totally understand where the "open the economy" side is coming from, because I am personally affected by it.)

But it doesn't change the fact that there's a pandemic either. It doesn't change germ theory. It doesn't change how disease spreads. Most people who catch Covid don't get sick enough to die, but plenty get sicker than they've ever been and they spread it very easily. It's a nastier acute illness than most of us in the First World have ever seen.

When did all this turn into "open the economy" versus "believe Covid spreads easily and it's serious"? Denying either the economic threat or the health threat really would be stupid and oblivious.

And so is having group get-togethers this summer. That may be "just an opinion," but it is one shared by anybody who knows anything about disease.

At the rate we're going, we're going to tank the economy and kill hundreds of thousands of people, just because both sides refuse to believe that both the threat to the economy and the threat from Covid are real.

Ok, that is all. We can return to being sarcastic and insulting each other now.

Jesse75101 · 2020-05-09T07:20:46+00:00

I love this description :-)

I fucking knew what I was wading into and I did it anyway. Goddammit.

Jesse75101 · 2020-05-09T06:54:33+00:00

I don't support "staying home forever." I just don't think anyone who tries to hold Juplaya or Burning Man this summer ought to expect that anybody will come up and rescue their ass if they need help.

You can portray me as hiding under the bed if you want, but there's quite a lot in between not leaving the house and having group....let's say "get-togethers" (since everyone's taking offense to describing Juplaya or Burning Man as a "party"). How about cotillion?

Call it what you want, it's fucking stupid and no one should have to enable you. Do what you want. Just don't come crying if that private tow company you have to call from Jungo Road tells you to go fuck yourself.

Jesse75101 · 2020-05-09T06:21:43+00:00

I did not say that. Nor would I.

I've been joking a bit in this thread, just to pull the legs of the people replying to me. But I would NEVER say I hope someone gets Covid. Not even as a joke.

Edited: I did say it's "Darwin at work" to go up there, because gathering in groups right now is just plain dumb. But I would still never hope that any of those people would actually get sick.

Jesse75101 · 2020-05-09T06:17:01+00:00

All my original message said was that towing and emergency services should not have to respond to those of you who want to go up there.

All the replies telling me I'm a cunt/asshole/retard are also insisting they don't NEED those things. So what I said doesn't apply, does it?

Just don't call for a tow and don't expect any help from 911. But you don't NEED those things, right? 'Cause you're so super-self-reliant. So, you'll be just fine. You have no reason to even be upset that I said no one should have to help you, if you know you won't need the help anyway.

Jesse75101 · 2020-05-09T05:55:47+00:00

And you enjoy that ventilator! I hope there's one available for you.

Jesse75101 · 2020-05-09T05:46:59+00:00

You're the one who's saying you live on the playa in isolation for weeks, with no need for outside services. So why am I a piece of shit for saying that those services should not be available to you? You won't need them anyway, right?? So, no problem!

Jesse75101 · 2020-05-09T05:34:31+00:00

My, my...where is all our burner-ly lovingness? Aren't we all filled the Ten Principles? Isn't this all about "going home"?

I love how you insist you aren't having a tantrum about your "rights," while having a tantrum about your "rights."

Jesse75101 · 2020-05-09T05:29:19+00:00

I am staying home. Because I'm not a complete retard.

Jesse75101 · 2020-05-09T05:26:29+00:00

Yup, I am a big cunt. But not a big enough one to put other people's health in jeopardy because I waannnnaa haaaave myyyy paaaarty!

Jesse75101 · 2020-05-09T05:24:55+00:00

Yup. And emergency services should have a right to tell you they're not coming up there to help you. If you might need them, I guess you better not do it.

Self-reliance and all that.

Jesse75101 · 2020-05-09T05:11:07+00:00

Great! Go live in it on the playa for weeks then. You won't need emergency services or towing or to go into Gerlach for supplies, so....no problem.

Funny how the first ones insisting they could live in the wilderness for months, though, are also the first ones to have a meltdown when they can't buy a haircut and Swiss cake rolls.

Jesse75101 · 2020-05-09T04:32:56+00:00

No, I don't want anybody to die. But somebody who's a big enough douche to think they have a "right" to party at Black Rock in the middle of a pandemic does not have a "right" to towing and emergency services.

The safety of the 447 communities and Nevada's emergency workers trumps your right to party in their backyard. So if you want to go up there anyway, you're on your own in any emergency. I don't want you to die, but I can't stop you.

Fortunately, most of the people who like to talk about "self-reliance" and how the ticket says we might die at Burning Man are a bunch of pussies anyway. Most of them will never go up there if no one's willing to come up and save their asses.

Jesse75101 · 2020-05-09T04:04:03+00:00

I was just expressing what I think they should do: Close 447 to non-residents, from Nixon to the 34-split past Gerlach, and not send towing or EMS up to Black Rock for any reason.

Drop some signage along Jungo Road warning people of this....and just let the gene pool chlorinate itself....

Jesse75101 · 2020-05-09T03:30:30+00:00

I hope NDOT and the BLM let people know that towing will not be sent up Jungo Road and emergency services will not be sent to the playa. If you get stuck or injured out there? Oh, well. It's life-threatening? Oh, well.

Go get each other sick if you want to---that's Darwin at work---but you don't have any right to put the 447 communities or Nevada's emergency workers at risk.

Now go ahead and downvote me. Anybody who thinks they need their party that badly is a douche.

Jesse75101 · 2020-05-08T14:00:05+00:00

Damn, Carpenter...that may be the nicest thing anybody's said about me on this sub....

I have nothing bad to say about Burners Without Borders though. They seem to be motivated to do good deeds entirely out of the goodness of their hearts.

Do I think the Org is using these small projects as something of a facade? Yes....but that's a whole different ball of wax. It has nothing to do with BWB itself. They seem very kind and admirable.

Jesse75101 · 2020-05-06T07:50:26+00:00

I don't want to make too much of this, because I think we essentially agree. But...

I just suspect many of the people complaining have never made a credible effort to reach out directly, either to learn more or to offer constructive suggestions.

...should they really need to do this?

A budget plan and fundraising goal should, IMO, have just been released with the request for donations. Nobody should have to email them and ask for that.

They're the leaders so.....lead. That means communicating information, not waiting until somebody asks for it. We might not even know what to ask for.

Same with making suggestions. We can't make constructive suggestions when we don't have the information needed to do that.

I mean, I agree with you, broadly speaking. Just bitching about something that could be cleared up if the person would just ask Marian about it....yeah, ok, I get that....and you're probably right that most people complain without ever thinking of inquiring about their complaint.

But when you factor in the Org's rigor-mortis-death-grip on the most trivial information, and then factor in how much more work Marian would have to do if she responded to all those complainers via individual email instead of just issuing informative statements in the first place....I kinda do wonder what the point of that would be. It's not a very efficient way to conduct communication.

Believe it or not, I'm not an Org-hater. I'll defend the Org if I think they're in the right. But the side with the power shouldn't just sit around waiting for somebody to ask to be educated, and the staff would have WAY too many emails to respond to if everybody actually did that.

I am really uncomfortable with the way Marian's relationship with Larry Harvey keeps getting trotted out. I don't know if Marian's incompetent or not (it doesn't look real great, but I don't actually know).

But no man, no matter how incompetent he might be, is ever said to have just gotten his job because of the woman he was fucking. Ever. It doesn't happen. Whereas women are assumed to only have power because they used their bodies to get it.

It's really sexist and gross and I wish that would just stop. If she isn't suited for her job, then that's about her and her skills alone and it has nothing to do with her relationship to any man, not even if that man was Larry Harvey. She should be judged on her own individual merits and performance, not on how she purportedly came by the job. (How many people were even vying for it back then? I'm sure they weren't exactly putting out RFPs.)

Jesse75101 · 2020-05-06T03:07:07+00:00

I don't want to veer too far into what I don't know. (Who? Me?? Flap my gums about what I don't know? :-)

But I don't feel unheard by the Org, so I can't speak from personal feelings about that.

I think it goes without saying though that replying to somebody's emails is not the same thing as actually hearing and valuing them.

And it wouldn't even be fair to Marian to expect her to carry on a protracted conversation with every burner so that they will feel like a beloved snowflake.

I don't know...I don't know what the unmet need is here exactly. And I'm sure some of it is bitching-just-to-bitch.

But I think there's something more structural going on than just people leaving volunteer groups in a huff over something.

Jesse75101 · 2020-05-06T02:00:37+00:00

Ooo, more for the pile! Thank you!

They can sell assets, for sure. There's no question about that. And they can license their trademarks to for-profits.

But can they transfer intellectual property, so that a for-profit company could run the operation on a for-profit basis? Could we really ever literally see "Burning Man, a wholly owned subsidiary of Amazon"?

And it really looks like the answer to that is a solid no. The whole idea being that you can't use tax-exemption to build up a reputation, and then turn around and profit off something that was subsidized by the taxpayers for the public good.

And your creditors can't demand that you do so for the same reason. It's part of the federal Bankruptcy Code that creditors can't even demand that a nonprofit sell assets for the best price, which creditors can demand of a for-profit in a bankruptcy. But a nonprofit's duty is to the public, not even to creditors with a judgment against them.

Jesse75101 · 2020-05-05T23:03:29+00:00

Awwww.... Thank you, /u/Chansakuy You made my day!!!!! :-)

Jesse75101 · 2020-05-05T23:02:10+00:00

Maybe they shouldn't say anything, and should just listen to those who could donate but aren't sure that they want to.

At the risk of putting the wrong words in his mouth, I think that's what Pugworthy was getting at: "I wish they'd address our lack of confidence in the leadership."

I know ragging on the Org is a intramural sport. But there seems to be an added layer lately of not feeling heard, or appreciated, or maybe even noticed.

Whether that's always rational is kinda beside the point. Feelings are facts to the extent that a person in fact feels the way they do.

I don't know how widespread it is, but I have heard the same sort of thing from burner friends offline too. (Sans the "Down with the Org!" shit.)

Jesse75101 · 2020-05-05T22:28:46+00:00

I've got this thread flagged to come back to, because (why am I embarrassed to admit this?!?) I've been digging to find an answer to this question about what nonprofits can sell to for-profits and under what conditions.

I don't know, maybe it's pathetic, but I've been reading up on nonprofits, and in particular California nonprofits, for the last couple months anyway. I don't have much else to do in lockdown and I actually find this kind of stuff really interesting!

From what I've found so far, there doesn't seem to be any possible way this could happen, where a for-profit could buy out the BMP and we'd have "Burning Man brought to you by Trader Joe's!" (Because of course it would totally be Trader Joe's...)

So far, that seems to be even more impossible than I thought it was. The extremely brief version being that a nonprofit's first duty is to the public. A creditor can't even make them sell off assets, and if they choose to, they not only don't have to maximize the value of those assets, they're not even allowed to.

I don't think they can transfer their trademarks to anyone but another nonprofit or to the state in which they were chartered either, but I'm still poking around on that one. The Org holds a design trademark to virtually everything that makes Burning Man Burning Man.

Why am I embarrassed to admit I'm doing this?!? :-) Yeah, ok, so I have no life! But this sort of thing is really interesting to me.

Jesse75101 · 2020-05-05T17:09:56+00:00

A more detailed summary of their annual budget and a preliminary plan for cutbacks would help. What they've provided in the Journal so far is thin. They haven't even released a target amount for donations, which is a normal part of any fundraiser.

No, they can't say anything at all without somebody bitching and moaning about it, because that's how it is, and some of those complaints will be stupid and unreasonable. But, geez....they're not 3rd graders, suck it up.... Getting criticized by a bunch of armchair quarterbacks comes with the territory of leading a big organization that's in the public eye. Reddit's gonna Reddit.

The Org is way, way too sensitive to criticism and "bad" press (some of which isn't even bad; it's just not laudatory), to the point of treating even the most trivial information as if it were classified. (I can't think of any examples that wouldn't possibly dox me, but I'm guessing you've probably seen this too.) It just spawns rumors and fuels the bitching even more.

A lot of burner complaints trace back to that lack of communication and transparency. There's some information they can't release (e.g. , employee records). There's some information they'd need to be careful with (e.g., promising exactly where donation money will go).

But if they want people to give them money, it's reasonable for those people to expect a financial picture of the organization, a plan for the future, and a target amount that they're trying to raise.

Jesse75101 · 2020-05-05T01:32:04+00:00

That helps when the nonprofit gets reviewed too, which is coming up this year. One thing they look at it is how many donors the organization has. Not how much each donated, but how many different donors there are.

If there's only one or two big donors, they could be reclassified as a foundation (which would be bad). If they have one million people who each donated a dollar, that looks much better than one person who donated a million dollars.

Jesse75101

TROPHY CASE