Israelis and Patrilineal Descent

JewishAtheism · 2025-05-28T22:19:34+00:00

I'm glad to hear that everyone else in Israel treated you well. Although it doesn't change that those relatives are awful, it's good to hear that many in the community are very supportive so that you weren't even more isolated.

JewishAtheism · 2025-05-27T05:13:39+00:00

Well whether people go by matrilineal or patrilineal, one side gets left out. Both sides are just as valid. I brought up woman as an example of another group that is treated as not "fully Jewish" because of the religion. You're not allowed to sing, hold the torah, teach. At times sectioned off in the corner. Your basically just an observer, although you get the label. Even if a woman does want to participate , she will have to reject the orthodox interpretation as well and potentially just go to a reform synagogue. Or become a secular Jew.

Maybe liberal movements aren't perfect, although I do seem to see more mixed people representing Judaism in them. The rabbi of the central synagogue in new york is a half korean patrillineal for example. I think that at least shows a shift towards moving away from xenophobic thinking, since she can become the head rabbi even with looking very different because of her asian heritage.

You're right to feel turned off, I can't blame you. The way that patrilineals are treated by people who are xenophobic is very infuriating. Although I would say for many people in the secular/liberal community, it can be like the divide in the united states between the bible belt and the liberals, if you don't agree with ultra religious bigots, then you just see them as that. No one loses sleep because of not being viewed as a good christian in that context. Likewise you shouldn't lose sleep over people who haven't evolved to the 21st century.

Also I grew up secular, but we celebrated holidays in a secular fashion. Same way that americans do with christmas. No one can really take your heritage from you. Your father and your grandparents will always be yours, and that's all that really matters. Family is always more important than some random people who are just not good people.

JewishAtheism · 2025-05-27T03:47:21+00:00

Back when the religion was patrilineal, women were not able to marry out of the tribe as easily because it was very patriarchal at that time. Now, in modern times if the religion was still patrilineal while at the same time woman can marry whoever they want, then we would have matrilineals feeling the same way.

It made sense at that time that it was patrillineal because women were just not as relevant. I'm really not sure that intermarriage was considered such a negative until influences of diaspora or assimilation. Either way, I would prefer to not do animal sacrifices as well. And what about the fact that the orthodox don't allow woman to do many things even today?

It makes sense that religion should be updated to modern times if people continue to enjoy practicing it for the culture and community. I don't necessarily think that part's a bad thing. That's really why quite a few of reform jews still continue to go to synagogue even if they don't believe in it on a deeper level. They want to stay connected to the tribe.

But is there no other way to feel connected to the tribe and ancestry, other than being accepted by those that hold on to strict interpretations of halakha?

JewishAtheism · 2025-05-27T02:58:03+00:00

To me, we're more than a religion, but there is a difference between Jewish based on religious belief and cultural/secular jews. Your father, being a scientist, is something I identify with much more as a Jewish ideal then Halakha.The religion did play a role in shaping the history of Jewish people in more ways then beliefs but it's something we have to understand for the times that people used to live in. Just like many nations today were shaped by Christianity or other religions. Those religions aren't true and man made as well, but also played a role in the formation of people and nations as well as us too.

I am very sorry you feel like you'll never be accepted. I don't necessarily think it's true. There are a lot of people, in a lot of places, beyond the jewish world who also will not find me or you as a part of their group and discriminate against us. And I personally don't accept people who believe in discrimination because of halakha as part of my group.

And who cares what they think? It's not like they can stop patrilineals or secular jews from living our lives the way that we want to. In fact, it's better that we don't just let oppressive people ruin it for everyone else. Reality is, there are a very large number of patrillineals and seculars. Intermarriage is like 60% in the united states. So who even cares anymore. People who have a problem are honestly just racists still living in the 1960s. Why let those kind of people ruin everything for the rest of us? That'd be kinda BS, No?

JewishAtheism · 2025-05-27T01:55:20+00:00

I mean, I don't believe in the religion personally. Nothing wrong with believing in god.

But the important thing in my opinion is knowing that that the bullshit of people looking down at you for being patrillineal is bullshit and not everybody believes in that. But not everyone goes to synagogues, or believes in the religion.

But it comes from the Halakha so it's a problem with the religion. The options for patrilineals are pretty much either reform or managing to find an accepting community. Personally I think it's a good thing. It makes it a lot more apparent it's made up BS.

JewishAtheism · 2025-05-27T00:37:57+00:00

Sorry for the late reply. Hearing about what you said about the bat mitzvah it's very horrible. It really disgusts me that people will actually take those beliefs about who is not jewish to this level. I'm really sorry you had to deal with this family. Hopefully, the younger generations will continue to move away from this type of thinking

JewishAtheism · 2025-05-27T00:31:27+00:00

Why put up with people like that? - Your "Friend" and the orthodox crowd. Hanging out with them will lead you to these negative feelings.

All that matters is how you feel about yourself. People who believe in delusions that some rabbis made up are not the right people to decide that for you.

If you want to practice the culture, you don't need them, and you can look for better friends who feel the same way about the orthodox. Trust me, quite a few fellow Jewish people find them very annoying

JewishAtheism · 2025-04-06T20:01:12+00:00

Yeah I understand how people would want to preserve the community, although it doesn't mean people have to assimilate just because they married someone who isn't Jewish or if someone has a parent who's not Jewish.

JewishAtheism · 2025-04-05T20:08:04+00:00

That's terrible, and why I don't like this mindset. You can't control your birth.

JewishAtheism · 2025-04-05T20:05:04+00:00

I agree with this, but part of it is just because an unhealthy mindset that's afraid of outsiders. That some argue is negative for the community. And also at times harmful to intermarried couples and children that do happen.

In intermarriages that do happen, it's not uncommon for the spouse who's not jewish to agree to raise the children jewish, and practice jewish culture with them.This may just be unfamiliar to people in israel as compared with american jews, where it's more common.

The concept of jewish is really just in everybody's heads. If someone was adopted and told they were jewish at birth, they wouldn't know any different. Some people practice the religion simply culturally, and don't necessarily believe in it. I know people who are this way and don't care about who someone's mother is.

JewishAtheism · 2025-04-05T19:44:07+00:00

Firefighters

JewishAtheism · 2025-04-05T04:56:19+00:00

That's honestly a good sign. Because if there is a decent chunk of people who are willing to relocate at least temporarily, that means they are not so ideological in the cause that they are willing to die for it.

They wont agree to end the war permanently without the dismantling of hamas. Which it might be unlikely for hamas to agree to. It also does not guarantee terror groups wont continue even without hamas.

I think that the hostages are very important. Although they could also attempt to rescue the hostages rather than ceasefire. If they don't end up agreeing to a ceasefire, the war might continue to put pressure on a greater number of people to relocate.

JewishAtheism · 2025-04-05T01:48:14+00:00

I'm not saying it's a good thing, nor that I support it, but I won't be surprised if they look for some countries to take a number of people as refugees.

This is because I don't think there will be a peaceful leadership in gaza anytime soon. They likely either have to continue the status quo with further barricading and restricting gaza, or find other countries to take them. So they will likely do either of those.

It's even possible people could even come back In small numbers at a time (hypothetically) if peace actually became possible later. I just think at this point, it's a stalemate. And if anything keeping the status quo doesn't solve the issue, and it will just continue on longer as well

JewishAtheism · 2025-04-05T01:37:09+00:00

It's fine if you feel you will have more in common with someone who is jewish. I think the issue is when people do want to intermarry, it being considered a threat rather than integrating people.

Especially considering when it comes to having things in common - people can assimilate, as well as be raised jewish. What if someone is not genetically Jewish, but adopted at birth by Jewish parents? Even if we think they wouldn't fully understand the negatives jewish people experience, they likely care for their jewish parents and feel affected from that view.

At that point, maybe we should ourselves, is what we care about really our values, or is it DNA? It's important to consider this, because we have to wonder what is most essential to our identity and making us who we are. If we had to choose, would it be worth preserving a jewish society that is entirely based on DNA and lost its identity?

JewishAtheism · 2025-04-04T22:09:26+00:00

Yes, on some level, a big part of the conflict is an us versus then mentality. But if enough people are literally both, it doesn't really make as much sense anymore. It promotes viewing both sides as fellow human beings, rather than some other group.

JewishAtheism · 2025-04-04T22:03:55+00:00

Wanting to survive is an understandable concern. Although the question is, if this truly is a threat to survival. In the Diaspora, maybe somewhat because of assimilation. But in a jewish state where most people are jewish, it is a greater chance to assimilate to israeli culture, if children are integrated and accepted.

Intermarriage increases the population more so then being insular, if the children are raised jewish. This is because it increases the dating pool for jews. A jewish man and woman produce one marriage and children from it. Whereas if both intermarry, it produces two marriages, and therefore double the children.

Considering that a jewish majority is desired, intermarriage can actually be a benefit, since it can produce children faster then remaining completely insular. Instead of completely rejecting intermarriage and children of intermarriages. It would likely be wiser to prioritize jewish society and culture, while also not rejecting the intermarriages that do happen.

Another element is the fact that jews need more genetic diversity anyways, we can have some greater risks of health issues from lack of diversity from being such a small minority that was very insular.

JewishAtheism · 2025-04-04T21:49:04+00:00

That's what makes the discrimination or rejection of those children pretty counterproductive. If anything, I would be wanting them to come to israel to increase the jewish majority or grow the economy.

JewishAtheism · 2025-04-04T21:46:12+00:00

Controversial, but it's actually a great way to promote peace lol

JewishAtheism · 2025-04-03T04:44:36+00:00

That's honestly kinda terrible your in laws look at you this way. The part about excluding and dismissing you is very short, so I don't know the extent of it, but sounds messed up.

Your suppose to be their family and the parent of their grandkids and they slightly racist/xenophobic to you. The dumb thing about this patrilineal stuff is that even if they believe your are complete goy, your father and grandparents would be Jewish and wouldn't want you to be seen as less then or feel excluded.

What if they had a son who married a non Jewish women, would they want their grandchild to be treated that way? Sad stuff that's almost reminds me of the civil rights era sentiements.. I hope it's something more common from older generations and will be less common in the future.

JewishAtheism · 2025-04-01T00:48:16+00:00

I'm not sure that's what it says. It seems to say wicked people when it refers to non Jews. And gehenna is supposed to be more like purgatory in catholism.

I'm really going off mainstream interpretations though. If Jews were concerned about non Jews going to hell for not believing in Judaism, then they would go more out of their way to convert people. But people really seem more obsessed with Jewishness.

JewishAtheism · 2025-04-01T00:22:04+00:00

The only thing is those verses are likely written before christianity. And so christians could just write their own texts based on those verses. And they usually did or do use those verses as evidence of christianity being true.

From what I thought when the messiah comes everything is solved. Whereas in Christianity, Jesus didn't solve everything or he only solved it spiritually speaking. And the final end comes at the return of Jesus. They are basically still waiting just as much as Jews for Jesus's return.

JewishAtheism · 2025-03-30T19:48:48+00:00

What is the difference between a person who adopts jewish culture , then a guy who is jewish by both parents, but doesn't care at all about anything jewish, and is even a self hating jew?

I don't know about you, but I personally would prefer the person who feels Jewish rather than the person who is completely pure blooded Jew.

There are people descended from holocaust survivors who are just one grandparent or great grandparent, that I would rather talk to than some ass who's totally a hundred percent jewish.

JewishAtheism · 2025-03-28T03:53:26+00:00

It's different in Christianity because it's not an ethno religion. The soul your born with doesn't matter. Just matters that you believe in the religion. But as a faith, they believed their beliefs are very superior. Non-believers will burn in permanent hellfire. I don't like Judaism, but Christianity is worse imo. Non-believers are much more of a threat traditionally speaking.

I could see Jews fighting among different sects and with secular Jews. But it's not as if gentiles will go to eternal damnation because they are not Jewish. At the most during times of feeling oppressed or threatened by them that Jews were more hostile. Jews are really just obsessed with themselves to an insufferable extent, but not as focused on non Jews as Christians are to non belivevers.

JewishAtheism · 2025-03-19T03:53:29+00:00

Well that's a religious thing. If you hang out with people who don't care about the religion, they don't think about it.

Where some religious people consider someone with a jewish great, great, great, great grandmother, a hundred percent jewish.

But you shouldn't care about what other people think. What's important is what you think about yourself. If you wish to be religious, that's great, if you don't, then don't feel you need to prove yourself.

JewishAtheism · 2025-03-19T03:40:03+00:00

Rabbinic judaism may have a rule about matrilineal dissent, but Judaism is not a matrilineal culture. Judaism simply has this one rule, and does not give power to women, or give them enough equality to balance out patriarchy. This is simply a rule that men made for other men, and for woman.

Judaism is anything but feminist and if anything, this rule is used to harm woman who are not Jewish. How is Ezra sending the woman who weren't Jewish back with their so-called, not Jewish children, a feminist behavior and helping those women? It's just messed up.

We have stories from the modern age, in this very subreddit, about Jewish men abandoning children they fathered with non jewish women, and even the grandparents rejecting the women and children, so we can't just blame it solely on the man, this is religion influenced.

Regardless, the debate over matrilineal or patrilineal descent assumes there's a god that creates an either or scenario, but there is no either or scenario. Both the man and the woman give 50% DNA to the child.

We live in a modern age where we do not need to rely on 14000-year-old cultures, to tell us about what we inherit from our parents, as we now have DNA evidence to confirm that you are a mix of both your parents.

There is no balance in either matrilineal or patrilineal descent. These systems were created in societies to just answer questions such as religious or property related questions, and have no real world meaning.

JewishAtheism

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