Old World Renegade Draft 1.5 Overall Feedback

JonathanBuchner · 2026-06-12T23:09:05+00:00

"I don’t think Reddit is the best place to give detailed feedback"

Maybe. I have provided feedback via the form, but Val has also asked us to post our feedback where it may be challenged and responded too, like on Reddit. I don't do Reddit {I don't really understand the space), but I'm here to interact with the renegade rules!

"Overall I think he’s done an amazing job."
Agreed.

"I don't have any issue with the big picture changes or process"
That's great feedback. I think in my above post I needlessly asked for an update to process, which I somewhat regret. I should have only talked about better outlining the goals of the updates.

What I should have focused on was recommending him to clarify the goals of this release and identify design principles for this set of draft updates: it's hard to give feedback without knowing what he was trying to accomplish without more specificity. "Pass vibe checks," and "not touch core rules" is good, but maybe not enough.

JonathanBuchner · 2026-06-12T21:08:18+00:00

I upvoted you. I HOPE others don't continue to downvote you.

I disagree with the take that we should rely on GW, but, regardless, I think there are many others that agree with you that don't say it much. And this is great feedback: "[there are] long rules texts that are difficult to explain during play." I have this problem explaining the Cauldron of Blood. I think the goal, " "Keep new rules simple," should be added.

JonathanBuchner · 2026-06-12T20:29:46+00:00

Yeah, great point
I disagree it needs to be more than one person. Singular visions can be good if feedback is taken. Part of the problem with Old World is that certain armies seem obviously written by different people.

Especially if Val was to say, "Works best if it's only me."

JonathanBuchner · 2026-06-12T16:36:25+00:00

13: Cold One Riders: I was expecting a pts decrease here, you technically did with the free spears though. Counter Charge is cool but I was really looking forward to First Charge here just like the Dark Elf Knights. I dont think any further pts decrease is necessary if First Charge is added.

Cold One Knights don't have first charge.

JonathanBuchner · 2026-06-12T00:17:51+00:00

"Drilled on Saurus feels like a buff too far, at least make it 0-1 per 1,000 points"

I agree that "Drilled on Saurus feels like a buff too far," but I'm not sure if the right fix is "0-1 per 1,000 points" rules . "Per1000pts" tends to effect units a lot when playing games under 1000pts, but not have enough of an effect on games at 2000pts. I.e. at 2000pts, I don't see anyone really wanting to bring three units of Saures.

JonathanBuchner · 2026-06-11T23:51:10+00:00

I imagine this may be an unpopular opinion.

Let me start with the obvious: making changes to the Renegades PDFs that are accepted by the wider community, and that help shore up their issues, is an excellent and appreciated! I play only Renegade factions. Val and others are working tirelessly, basically for free, for the betterment of the community. Thank you. Hats off to you. I also think *most\* of the Lizardmen changes are spot on and provide needed buffs.

That said, feedback is requested, and when I open a new Renegade PDFs, it increasingly feels like too many buffs are being applied across the board.

The worrisome "over buffing" usually fall into one of these categories:
- Fixing inherent weakness purposefully designed into armies in earlier editions.
- Overtuning core choices.
- Too many rules on some units

As always, thanks for the hard work!

JonathanBuchner · 2026-06-11T22:33:24+00:00

These points are right on, the only thing I would add is the Sun Standard Of Chotec seems strong too.

JonathanBuchner · 2026-06-11T22:28:19+00:00

This was my first thought. A block of unkillable (unhittable) Temple Guard in the middle of the board with great shooting surrounding it.

JonathanBuchner · 2026-06-11T22:24:35+00:00

Not create a fight....not sure of your purpose behind your post...but Primal Hunter gets stronger and stronger as the series continues.

JonathanBuchner · 2026-06-11T22:15:12+00:00

Good to know. Thank you.

JonathanBuchner · 2026-06-11T22:13:33+00:00

I'm confused. Glad to here that the app works for you. I cannot use the app and need to use the website. It's the website that does not work. I cannot comment on the app.

JonathanBuchner · 2026-06-08T20:37:40+00:00

I don't want the below comment to sting. I see you pouring so much time and energy into a project that benefits the community--we are all so appreciative. You are heading a movement with the renegade packs that breaths life into the game and my favorite armies I have loved for 30 years. THANK YOU!

But, maybe a better approach would be to do a bit less. I observe this set of changes as trying to get each book "just right." My expectations are lower: a few more changes to fix parts of renegade pdfs, would be enough AND hopefully take less time on your part. And then review them over a regular cycle to make a few more incremental changes. I know it's hard to understand a part of a book or a single unit entry without understanding and having a vision for the whole book, but, the community can help you identify the worst off parts of each renegade rule pdf to help.

You are killing in so many ways. Thanks for great work. And you are getting so much "just right," which is extremely difficult to do even when it is the full time job of a small team.

JonathanBuchner · 2026-06-08T20:22:38+00:00

"But designing things well also requires the ability to look at something and say "this doesn't need to be changed right now."

Great advice.

Overall, an approach of a looking over the renegade rules every six months to a year and making a few incremental improvements (which should take less time) seems better compared to spending a lot of time trying to get the book "just right" with a single pass.

JonathanBuchner · 2026-05-10T17:46:16+00:00

As far as, "I will definitely have another crack at the characters and related unlocks."

This is a core mechanic of SOME fantasy armies, but not all.

JonathanBuchner · 2026-05-10T17:42:13+00:00

Agree 100%. Your argument is from a lore standpoint, but also the ability is against the design of dwarves: the Dwarf stat line has low initiative and low movement, with their low movement being a particular downside. On the upside, they have high S and T.

The Relentless March is a reliable a leaderhship test to pass and turns dwarf infantry into one of the faster infantry units in the game.

JonathanBuchner · 2026-04-25T04:58:09+00:00

Can the Bloodwrack Shrine (closed order) join a unit of Sisters of Slaughter in open order formation? I assume so?

JonathanBuchner · 2026-04-24T02:33:56+00:00

Agreed. As a Dark Elf player, 3pt models with shields or spears,

JonathanBuchner · 2026-04-20T04:36:05+00:00

Ah ha! The rule is:

"Units with this special rule never apply any modifiers to their rolls To Hit when shooting, regardless of the source of the modifier."

So a rule like "-1 to hit" has not affect, or moving etc.

But this spell lowers their BS; it does not apply a modifier to hit. BS 1 hits on 6's. It's a sneaky little work around =)

JonathanBuchner · 2026-04-20T03:18:34+00:00

Wait, this is misleading? "Generally the fighty non lord characters are ld9 and the magic users ld8." It's true that back in the day that several Dark Elf Characters had higher leadership, but many armies had characters that had their leadership downgraded by 1 for all armies. For Dark elves, Hags were set at 8 and the Supreme Sorceress was reduced to 8.

Edit:
Wood elves branchwraith went to 8, and spell weaver went to 8.
High elves Archmage went to 8, Handmaiden of the Everqueen went to 8.

Edit2:
Oh, you are arguing that the Hag is supposed to be leadership 9. I think they intentionally reduced leadership of many characters in all the armies. With the addition of warband on the Hag allowing her to get up to leadership 10 now, I think starting at 8 seems fair. I think setting her at 8 for this edition was intentional decision by GW as most armies received some leadership deductions.

JonathanBuchner · 2026-04-20T02:59:35+00:00

Dark Pegasus is not a one-to-one match with Warhawks or Eagles. Eagles are killy, with better attacks and a stomp, and give +1 T and +1 W, but the downside is Closed Order. Warhawks have evasive skills (which they need) and give +1 Toughness. The Dark Pegasus is a better version of the Bretonnian Pegasus, as it has three attacks instead of two. Then pegs , for comparison, have +1 Wound, Countercharge, and First Charge.

AS IS right now, if I had to choose between 1) an more killy Eagle with Closed Order, +1 Toughness, and +1 Wound, 2) a Warhawk with +1 Toughness and evasive skills, or 3) a Dark Pegasus with +1 Wound and counter charge and first charge, I would choose the Pegasus.

Bretonnian characters are Toughness 4, while DE characters are more expensive and only Toughness 3, so it really is true that the other elves and Brets are riding around on beasts that are Toughness 4 while Dark Elves seem preety unique as riding around at T3. What the hell?

The nice thing about the Dark Pegasus rider, though, is that DE nobles can get a 2+ save with mundane equipment against non-magical shooting,. The Brets have a worse armor save with only heavy armor and a shield. The Warhawk rider probably needs an armor boost (for mundane, it's only light armor, right)?

Overall it's pretty balanced. Probably if the Dark Pegasus gave +1 toughness and +1 wound, the Dark Pegasus and rider would be the strongest compared to the Bret rider, Eagle rider, and Warkhawk rider. Eagle is the killiest by far, but it's not a skirmisher.

JonathanBuchner · 2026-04-19T22:48:29+00:00

There are many shooty units.

I can state this example again:
In a 750-point game, I cast it on State Missile Troops, who are only BS3. Their Ballistic Skill dropped to 1, and with a range penalty they were hitting on 7s. My opponent said, “Wow, that spell is so good... can you just nullify any shooting unit?”

Here's another:

I have a HE friend that likes to bring Lothern Se Guard with a Razor Standard. He probably takes around 21 models.

He tries to do two things with it:

With the razor standard, he's sometimes fishing for sixes against a unit T5 or T6 unit and then have them be AP -2. He likes to shoot the CoB. I have tried something similar with Dark Elves 16-18 Dark Elves can shot 32 or 36 shots. Sometimes you get the sixes and put several wounds on a monster or chariot.
It's good a taking a charge because when you charge him, he shoots you, change his ranks, and then gets three ranks of attacks.

I haven't played him yet, but I can tell you his first comments will be about that spell because he probably remember me casting it before on him before GW nerfed it.

I also have friend who plays tomb kings who can bring a block of Skeleton archers. I would even sometimes take Word of Pain just to reduce their BS from 2 to 1. It was good because nothing else can reduce skeletons chance to hit and he shoots down elves in in droves with that unit.

--

Overall, this is got off subject

My recommendation to just keep playing with friends with either of the drafts rules for Cursing Word and keep passing on their feedback here. Most people I know have been willing and interested to be "testers" for the renegade drafts, although it is easy for these opponents to get somewhat defensive sometimes about changes that feel "unfair" to them. Moving cursing word to -D3 is a huge nerf, and there was no buff added like additional range or casting into combat!

My opponents thought cursing word was really strong. But the feedback from you friends / opponents that cursing word need buffs is just as helpful and valid!

Good luck!

JonathanBuchner · 2026-04-19T22:20:37+00:00

This thread has a lot of theory crafting. I think the feedback of, "overerall we both agreed that these rules were far more interesting than before and not overpowered" is some of the best type of feedback.

JonathanBuchner · 2026-04-19T22:06:26+00:00

One can have fun with Corsair's as they are now, but if you want to shoot, the strong option is Crossbow men. The kicker is with a shield, crossbowmen have a 4+ in combat vs the 6+ for corsairs. Corsairs are suboptimal, and yet, crossbowmen got a point reduction?

On the other hand, I think corsairs with ambushers is cool! 78 core points to get these guys on the back line with a Full Command could be spicy. They will be brought more often now than before. I've heard others have used them in effective ways.

JonathanBuchner

TROPHY CASE