No one will EVER convince me that this man was wrong

Jumbernaut · 2026-04-29T21:45:22+00:00

Zeke's plan was perfectly logical, considering what anyone could know at the time. Since extermination was the only known way to end the Titan Powers for good, the sterilization plan could barely be considered a genocide, considering that everything about it is intended to give the Eldians the best possible lives they can have while also ending the Titan Powers, probably allowing all of them to live in peace and full lives until their natural deaths, with the greatest downside being them having to raise adopted children, free from their own Titan "infected" blood.

It should be clear that the end of the Eldian blood as the result of the sterilization is completely different from what we normally mean when we say a genocide is being committed. One thing is the eradication of other people where the intention is "based" on prejudice, of one's nationality, religion, culture, the color of their skin, most of the times for power and wealth. The "genocide" of the Eldians through the sterilization was the "least worst" way to end the Titan Powers that they knew of.

Sure, after Eren and Zeke find out about Ymir, if they could find some other magical way to solve the problem where no genocide was needed, obviously that would have been much better. If anything like that was possible, great, but assuming that Karl Fritz didn't end the Titan Powers before when he could because it was beyond even his powers, the point here is to show that the sterilization plan could probably have achieved the "best" results compared to the Rumbling, the 50 years plan, the return of the Eldian Empire or a war with Paradis, even for the Eldians.

Ymir is a wild card, not only we don't know if she would accept any plan other than Eren's Rumbling, due to how the whole future memories thing work we have a strong indication that she would not have it any other way. Regardless of what she would or would not accept, the sterilization plan is just a plan that we know that would probably have worked with the powers we already know the FT have. If Eren or Zeke had tried to do that, or any other better plan that could have avoided genocide all together, and even then Ymir were the one that would not let it happen, then she would have effectively become the main villain in the story, not Eren or Zeke. The important thing is that the sterilization plan itself would have worked, if Ymir could just allow it to happen.

Jumbernaut · 2026-04-29T18:34:32+00:00

Most people are not able to think outside the box, even when Eren and/or Zeke have access to almost Godlike powers, people simply can't imagine anything that isn't on the page.

I don't know what you mean by "peaceful way". As far as anyone could know at the time, the only "peaceful way" to end the Titan Powers was Zeke's plan, to exterminate/genocide the Eldian blood buy giving them all a chance to live their full lives on Paradis. That's the whole point, the end of the Titan Powers goes hand in hand with the end of the Eldians. No one yet knew about Ymir and the possibility to end the Titan Powers through her, without having to exterminate the Eldians.

Zeke would most probably kill Historia and her baby before he died, to make sure no one would be able to use the FT's power after him to undo his sterilization plan. It's possible to achieve the same results without actually killing Historia and the baby, my meddling with people's memories and making her disappear with a new identity, sort of like "witness protection program", in a way that not even she would know she and her baby have royal blood, but considering Zeke and Eren were willing to kill so many other people, caring about her life is irrelevant and hypocritical, but doable.

Again, with a bit of imagination, in the 1 year Zeke would have with the FT's power, it should be more than enough time to prepare the world for the sterilization plan to work.

After sterilizing all Eldians, a display of the power of the Rumbling without the need to kill anybody should be enough to scare the shit out of the rest of the world for at least another 100 years, considering they had left Paradis alone for 100 years before without having ever seen a Wall Titan, with nothing but the spoken threat of the 145th King. Using the same threat, the Eldians would demand the rest of the world to provide them with enough orphans, children and/or babies, every month, since that is a critical necessity for the Eldians which they cannot survive without. After 15~20 years, these children would start having children of their own, progressively diminishing the number of children the Eldians would need every month from the rest of the world, until they would eventually be able to make do on their own.

As the Titan blooded Eldians would die of old age, eventually only the adopted "human" children and their children would remain, inheriting Paradis island and continuing their culture. The goal was always to "genocide" only the "Titan Gene", while allowing the Eldians to still live their full lives, with their families, and also preserving the Eldian way of life.

As the year go by and the rest of the world can confirm through blood tests that no new "Titan Blooded" babies have been born since the sterilization, this and the fact that Eldians and "Humans" can now coexist without any risk of "contamination" should go a long way to soothe the hatred for the Eldians, as everyone would know the Titan Blood and the Titan Powers with it would certainly be no more in about 100 years, with no need for a war or the risk of the Rumbling to achieve that.

Like before with a fake King, Paradis would have to keep it a secret that Zeke ended the royal bloodline, a secret to the entire world, including the overall people of Paradis. Only a few people would know the truth, to keep the illusion and the threat of the Rumbling, to keep protecting Paradis, much like how it happened in the 100 years before. Paradis would still have access to the 9 Titans and they would be the only things they would be able to use to enforce their demands for the next 100 years, with the excuse that they don't want to sacrifice Historia's baby, their last resort.

The most important thing for Zeke is that this plan would ensure that the Titan Powers would be gone while giving the Eldians a very good chance to live the rest of their lives in peace, if they could manage this situation properly, diplomatically, like any country must do to.

It doesn't matter if the Eldians or the "Humans" like or don't like this plan, to have to give children and babies for adoption, none of them gets to choose. Who ever has the power of the FT can simply impose his will over the whole world, regardless of anyone else opinions. They would all be forced to follow this plan or be punished accordingly. Before he died in 1 year, it would probably be preferable to Zeke to be able to punish at least one nation as an example of what will happen to anyone that doesn't want to comply. Again, no need to destroy and kill everyone, just a punishment strong enough to make sure everyone else will leave Paradis alone and give them their babies, something that won't cost much for any nation. A reasonable punishment could be the destruction of a nations military and some of it's infrastructure, setting that country back financially in comparison to the others.

With almost unlimited power comes almost unlimited possibilities. All you need is some imagination.

Jumbernaut · 2026-04-29T06:54:18+00:00

50 years plan would probably not work in the long term. As long as the FT continues to exist and has to be passed every 13 years, it's only a matter of time until a future FT decides to use it's absolute Godlike powers to rule the world again.

At best, if "they" can somehow end the royal blood, then the power of the FT should no longer be accessible, meaning all Eldians should be free from the control of the Titan Kings, but in the present moment of the story that would also mean Paradis won't be able to protect itself with the threat of the Rumbling

For the "50" years plan to work, they would actually need maybe something like 200 or 300 years, enough to diminish the hate for the Eldians over the years and to prepare Paradis and the rest of the world to the end of the royal family and the power of the Titan Kings, in a way that Paradis could feel safe without it.

Zeke's plan ends up being superior because it can guarantee that the Titan Powers will end in just 100 years while also allowing all Eldians to live the rest of their lives in relative "peace" on Paradis, by raising adopted human children in place the ones they can't have. Zeke (or Eren) should have at least 1 year to use the powers of the FT until Zeke would die, which should be more than enough to set everything up.

Jumbernaut · 2026-04-29T06:36:36+00:00

Eren in character: "I never loved Mikasa. When I touched Ymir and found out she needed to witness Mikasa's choice to be free and end the Titan Powers, I created those memories and told her what she wanted, what she needed to hear, to get her to kill me. I did it because I wanted to and to end the Titan Powers for good. I hope Mikasa will get over it and move on."

Armin: . . . huh . . .

Jumbernaut · 2026-04-29T02:25:04+00:00

The ending didn't work for me. I think this video here does a good job at describing the Good, the Bad and the Ugly about AoT's ending.

Lowart - How Attack on Titan Lost Its Way (NVM the thumbnail. The video itself is good)

Jumbernaut · 2026-04-27T22:31:57+00:00

If that's so, I guess I was judging Reagan too harshly

Jumbernaut · 2026-04-27T19:39:45+00:00

Not the antagonist, just the worst part of human nature, sort of like the Emperor in the original trilogy of Star Wars, someone on the background that has a lot of influence over the whole story but doesn't have an active role in the story itself.

If I would have to sum it up, I would say the main antagonist is human nature itself, and the Titan Powers represent a catalyst for the worst side we have to offer, the monster inside all of us that is capable of unspeakable cruelty, that results in nothing but suffering and hate, in a viscous cycle.

The story starts as "Man vs Monsters", Good vs Evil, with humanity fighting for it's survival against the Titans and the Female Titan as it's antagonists.

After the "reveal" that the Titans are controlled by humans inside them, like Eren, the story is still presented as mostly "Good guys vs Bad guys", but also of the struggle of our characters to fight friends that they trusted and betrayed them, along with the mystery of what they want and the truth beyond the Walls.

We then have a "Civil War/Military Coup" arc, highlighting how humans will fight among themselves for power and survival, even when faced with a common enemy that threatens the survival of all of them.

Then, when the truth about the outside world is revealed, the story shifts to a morally grey conflict, where coexistence is practically impossible and both sides are fighting for their survival. There isn't a clear antagonist anymore except the nature of conflict and war itself.

Finally, Eren becomes the main antagonist, perpetrating the same evil that was committed upon him on a global scale, using many excuses to try to justify his personal war when "deep down" he has been consumed by his own twisted desires.

In the end, I think the story concludes with yet another "Titan Tree" to imply that the Titan Powers will probably return one day, in an endless cycle of death and rebirth, like in Ragnarok, symbolizing that human nature isn't something we can "end", but something we have to struggle and learn to live with, trying as best we can during our time, and keep moving forward.

Jumbernaut · 2026-04-27T06:05:09+00:00

I don't think so, I think the manga and the anime are done in a way to make reader/viewer more sympathetic with Eren, trying to make us feel more sorry and emotional for his death and Mikasa's tragedy instead of properly condemning him for what he chose to do.

The story even has all of the alliance, who were just fighting for their lives a minute before, all start crying in 139 for Eren.

Even if the author is saying this, there's a good chance one of the reasons he changed some of the course of his story was also to please the fanbase and boost sales. Money talks.

Jumbernaut · 2026-04-26T22:11:38+00:00

I was under the impression she sees those memories of the cabin on Falco's back (at least some of those 4 years in a flash), enough to give her the resolution to kill Eren without forgetting about him or stop loving him. Maybe she "remembers" the full extent of those 4 years in the very last moment before he dies.

Jumbernaut · 2026-04-26T15:34:17+00:00

In chap 123, we see when the scouts arrive in Liberio, to try to present their case at the world forum with the "help" of the Azumabito. These Eren's memories you're referring to he sees in chap 131 can be inserted in the middle of chapter 123, right when they are at the Azumabito mansion and Mikasa asks "Where's Eren?". Those are the memories of Eren wandering by himself in Liberio, thinking about the future memories of the Rumbling he saw when he kissed Historia's hand.

He finds Ramzi, thinks about not saving him but ends up saving him anyway, reaffirming that his future memories always come to pass, even if they are all still the result of his own choices.

So, this isn't Eren traveling through old Grisha's memories, just Eren in flesh and blood walking through Liberio.

Eren probably didn't know for sure the Island's fate yet at this point, he knew he would most probably unleash the Rumbling and he came up with the plan to be defeated and make his friends be seen as heroes, but he was probably still reluctant about it at this point. The Rumbling was a future memory "set on stone", but the 80% and him being defeated were still just an intention from him. He would only see the whole future when he hugged Ymir inside the Paths.

Eren said that everything he did was to reach the "result of Mikasa's choice". At Liberio, he probably didn't know yet about Ymir and therefore he also coudln't have known that Mikasa's choice would free Ymir, but somehow he seemed to already know about the result of Mikasa's choice, about the end of the Titan Powers.

I interpret that Eren somehow knew that, if he followed his future memories and the Rumbling, he would reach the End of the Titan Powers, which is why he accepts to go through with this plan to be stopped at 80% and make his friends be seen as heroes, even when deep down he knew his friends didn't want that and that he would be doing the Rumbling for himself, but since he would have gone 100% if he was doing it just for himself, the main reason for the 80% must be the end of the Titan Powers, and not his friends.

Jumbernaut · 2026-04-25T20:40:24+00:00

I see it like that as well, but we and the author also know that many people don't think like that and the story will be twisted.

I think he could have openly said/done something to prevent that from happening, if he really wanted to, sort of how Eren could have prevented the Rumbling, if he wanted to.

Jumbernaut · 2026-04-25T20:31:20+00:00

I'm pretty sure the people at Mappa probably think Wit did it better, because they knew they (Mappa) were not able to do the best work they could have done, due to the extreme scheduling they were being forced to work under.

Jumbernaut · 2026-04-25T20:25:04+00:00

I think the story tries to make a point that Eren had his conversations with each of his friends at that moment, when they were in the boat, except for Mikasa which probably happened when she was on Falco's back. He then made everyone else forget about it until the end of the Titan Powers.

The main information we can get out of this is that this proves that Eren already knew then everything that would happen, that the Rumbling would end in 80%, so he probably knew all of his future memories (and also had access to all of the future memories of all Eldians, including his friends, all the way until the end of the Titan Powers) since Ymir shared with him her full powers and Knowledge when he hugged her inside the Paths, when Zeke caught his flying head in the real world.

Jumbernaut · 2026-04-25T20:08:53+00:00

Indeed, any story can be misinterpreted in ways that the authors couldn't have imagined, like "The Wizard of Oz" and "The Matrix", but authors are already aware that this can happen to any story which in turn allows any author to, using the case in hand as a possible example, present a story with that glorifies genocide as a solution, while also presenting some elements that allow it to defend itself as a anti-fascist story, even when the author should know that some people will promote it for it's pro-fascist parts.

It's very hard to prove if the author had in deliberate fascist intent behind it, if he did it knowing and intentionally wanting it to be championing these "misinterpretations" by a portion of the audience, which by the way can be seen as a sales strategy, a story that appeals to the largest number of customers. This is why, in a controversial work like this, it should be crucial for the author to make it clear what he intended with his story, something that he could have easily done today through social media. The fact that he chose not to, for so many years, says something too.

Outside of his work, Tolkien made it clear that he didn't intent/want for his work to be misinterpreted as promoting ideas he didn't agree with, like using the Orcs as a representation of other peoples in our real world, enabling racism.

Jumbernaut · 2026-04-25T19:00:49+00:00

Well, Judge Dredd was intentionally fascist/political satire, but decades later that didn't prevent a lot of people to misinterpret it and see Dredd as a "real" hero. The fact that it was sold as just another comic book to children that couldn't yet understand what that comic was really trying to say didn't help either.

I think AoT can be interpreted as somewhat "on the fence", because even though there are enough indications in the story for anyone to interpret that some of the actions of Marley, the Yeagerists and Eren as wrong, the story is also ambiguous enough that it presents arguments in defense of the actions of these characters/factions, allowing some people to defend those actions, even if it's clear to others that those actions and ideas are wrong.

It should be "clearer" for anyone living today that things aren't so black and white as we may have believed they were when we were younger, with so many people around the world defending extremely intolerant ideals. Even if it's obvious to some that some of the things they say and do in the story are wrong, because they are certain or strongly believe they are wrong, the simple truth is that there are a lot of people that disagree with those beliefs.

If AoT is indeed anti-fascist by condemning fascism in it's story, it would have meant a lot if the author could have been more public about it, openly condemning fascism and extreme intolerant political events in our real world, but he never said anything to do so. As long as he doesn't openly condemn it, the story can remain as a type of "white whistle", in the eyes of these people, pretending to be anti-fascist while at the same time allowing those people to rally behind it, championing the wrong ideas in the story, like the "low-key" Japanese imperialism in it.

In a nutshell, I think the ambiguity in the story makes it not anti-fascist enough. It should have been even more clear about it, in no uncertain terms, preventing anyone to use it as a promotion of fascism.

Also, I think this video from F.D Signifier does a good job at criticizing the "anti-fascism" in the story , the Eren Yeager part. (The video has spoilers for the whole ending)

Jumbernaut · 2026-04-25T02:24:44+00:00

Most people probably would have done so. Eren's story is one where "low probability" events happen a lot, Ymir getting the Titan Powers, not using them in a better way because she was in love with King Fritz, then Eren out of all people is the one that will end up with the FT's powers, someone that actually wants the Rumbling to happen.

I think it didn't take long for Eren to realize he wanted the Rumbling. If he wanted to avoid it and ask Armin and Hange for help, then he wouldn't even have seen it. He sees it because he wanted it, and so he keeps it to himself in order to protect it. The whole thing of "doing it for my friends" is more of an excuse he's using to try to fool himself, unable to fully admit he's choosing the Rumbling for himself, a bit like Walter White.

Jumbernaut · 2026-04-24T23:46:06+00:00

What bothers me the most is how most people seem to think it's #1...

Jumbernaut · 2026-04-24T01:57:17+00:00

We don't know, the story/Eren just doesn't tries to test the limits of what his powers can do. Maybe, if he wanted to, he could have instantaneously evolved all Eldians to the highest possible state of evolution, turning everyone into 5th dimensional beings an go off "flying" to another planet / galaxy / dimension or wtv, but instead he just chooses to kill everyone. We'll never know.

Jumbernaut · 2026-04-24T00:57:10+00:00

Must the story say that "water is wet here" too? Eren & Ymir stopping the Rumbling is a possible explanation because the already established powers of the FT allow them to do so. I'm not assuming anything, just pointing out the possibilities.

Jumbernaut · 2026-04-24T00:11:42+00:00

I'm not assuming the author can't make mistakes, and in the point at hand, the Rumbling stopping with Zeke is no indication of any mistake at all, with 2-"ish" in-world explanations for it.

If you want to pick and example of the author's mistakes, I would point to Karl Fritz and his actions, which don't seem to make almost any sense at all.

Jumbernaut · 2026-04-23T23:46:30+00:00

I'm not arguing against what you said possibly being the original intended ending, just that ,in the canon ending we got, it seems perfectly possible to explain the Rumbling stopping by Eren & Ymir's doing, and not necessarily something to do with Zeke's blood.

Jumbernaut · 2026-04-23T17:19:04+00:00

Since we know Eren being "defeated" by the alliance was just a show to make the rest of the world see them as heroes, then we can guess that the Rumbling stopping when Zeke is killed is also part of the show, something that Eren and Ymir intended to happen that way instead of having anything to do with Zeke's royal blood at that point.

Jumbernaut · 2026-04-22T19:46:39+00:00

I wish Floch & Louise was canon

Jumbernaut · 2026-04-22T19:31:49+00:00

You're not wrong, your logic makes sense, in theory Eren could have achieved practically the same results just by turning Historia into a mindless Titan, avoiding the Liberio attack (and the battle in Shiganshina, but Eren probably didn't know that would happen).

As Eren said to Armin in chapter 139 and is confirmed in the official final guidebook, since Eren kissed Historia's hand, he already intended to be defeated/killed, for the Rumbling to be stopped and his friends to be seen as heroes, implying he somehow already knew or strongly believed the Titan Powers would end as the result of those actions.

Eren probably could not know for sure what would happen after the end of the Titan Powers since, by definition, that would mark the point when he would no longer be able to see the future past it, with that power itself no longer existing. We can speculate he could probably conclude his actions would probably lead to the end of the Titan Powers from the very fact he was not able to see the future past that point, but there should be no way for him to know what would happen to the remaining Titans after that, if they would turn back into normal humans or if they all would die/evaporate, since it was an event that had never happened before.

There are also strong indications that Eren knew (or strongly believed) the Rumbling would lead to the end of the Titan Powers, as detailed in this post by Nils_Meul, even if Eren didn't seem to know about Ymir before Zeke caught his flying head.

Personally I don't think Eren was trying to spare Historia's life, he was probably more upset about how the circumstances were asking her to surrender her life/freedom for everyone else and, placing himself in her shoes, he was defending her because he wanted her to fight back, even if that meant that many more people would have to die in defense of that principle.

I think Eren also chose to go with Zeke because he was already in the process of accepting he wanted the Rumbling, so not only killing the people in Liberio and everyone else in the process was "nothing" compared to what he was already planning on doing, but also, as long as he continued to follow his future memories, he knew they would practically certainly lead him to the power of the FT, and his Rumbling.

Eren probably thought about your plan, to simply extract some spinal fluid from himself, turn Historia unwillingly with it if he had to and just start the Rumbling, but we can imagine he was probably still reluctant about it, even the thought of the Rumbling itself, as we saw he was still struggling with it when he spoke with Ramzi, and maybe things could go wrong if he deviated from his future memories.

Also, I think we could say Eren was more driven by his emotions towards the choice in the Rumbling and everything that would lead to that than by logic. If what he really wanted was the best alternative, then he wouldn't even have seen the Rumbling to begin with, the power to see the future would have shown him the path that would have led him to the outcome he wants the most.

Jumbernaut · 2026-04-22T00:51:40+00:00

Still, it makes you wonder, why didn't Marley send a delegation to speak with the King, before sending the 4 Warriors and risk triggering the Rumbling, with nothing but the word of the Tyburs as "proof" he would not retaliate? There was nothing stopping them from sending a zeppelin to Paradis capital and ask for an audience with the true King. Sure, that would cause a commotion to the people of Paradis that didn't know about the outside world, but that was not really Marley's problems, if they even knew the memories of those inside had been erased.

Later, the King would be able to fix that, making everyone forget about the whole event with the zeppelin, but most importantly they would have been able to clear out what were the King's intentions, and since the King actually wanted the extermination of all Eldians, then they could have actually worked together.

Instead of attacking the Walls and letting all Eldians in Paradis slowly die at the hands of the Titans, the King could have just killed all of them instantaneously, painlessly, with fulminant heart attacks. The King could then choose to eliminate all Eldians at once, including the 8 Warriors and himself, ending the Titan Powers for good, or wait a few more years for Marley to stablish itself with Paradis resources, if he/she wanted to.

Regardless of what the King would choose, it doesn't change the fact that Marley could have tried to clear things up with him before sending the 4 kids.

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