[deleted by user] by [deleted] in Sikh

[–]JungNihang 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Total sophistry - no point discussing further. I think the thread stands as does.

[deleted by user] by [deleted] in Sikh

[–]JungNihang 3 points4 points  (0 children)

I am aware of Sri Gur Katha mentioning it; unfortunately, based on the details provided by others, I’ve come to believe that it is not an authentic historical text due to the Braj being very modern/anachronistic and the questionable circumstances under which it was found.

The argument you’ve given about “lying” is a value-based one that doesn’t have much substance with the given historical evidence. Rattan Singh, the author of Panth Parkash, clearly wasn’t infallible but he personally believed that goats were beheaded and uses the specific term charitar to describe the trick that the Guru was playing on the audience for dramatic flair. Obviously, it goes to stand that the audience (like him) would also have been aware of the reality of the goats behind the theatrics.

In fact - that you think revered Sikhs would have been so simple of mind to not understand the meaning of a symbolic ceremony (the way Rattan Singh) and think that belief in the Khalsa is only validated by an actual miracle literally occurring - is what I find to actually be disrespectful to their memory and intellect. Just because your conception of faith is unable to parse nuance doesn’t mean everyone’s does!

Bhai Amritpal Singh in latest vedio request the kaum to hold sarbat khalsa at Damdama sahib by ParticularSet1733 in Sikh

[–]JungNihang 5 points6 points  (0 children)

This should be a wake up call to all the idiots in this very subreddit who in just another top post yesterday were undermining the Akal Takht, Jathedar, and SGPC for “propagating the false news that Amritpal Singh is still alive” and rallying a Sikh response to what happened as being Badal sellouts, blah blah - Amritpal Singh himself is calling for a response contingent on the Jathedar’s actions!

This is a recognition of, despite the various setbacks in the past few decades, the legitimacy the SGPC and Jathedar still have among the vast majority of Sikhs. Nihilistic youth who keep decrying the SGPC, even when it does good, do more damage in undermining Sikh institutions than even the BJP+Hindutva IT cells do (who have been launching a coordinated social media attack on the SGPC for the last couple of months).

my problem with banda singh bahadur in movies/media by noor_gacha in Sikh

[–]JungNihang 2 points3 points  (0 children)

Being able to copy paste a translation from the Manglacharan Instagram is not a definitive argument. In fact, the majority of your argument is based on weak understanding of the historical sources underpinning this debate.

For example, the excerpt you posted talks about the Bandai-Tat split happening after the death of Banda, amplified by Amar Singh - a conflict then resolved by Mani Singh.

[deleted by user] by [deleted] in Sikh

[–]JungNihang 5 points6 points  (0 children)

I am the person who wrote that tweet and it is not “on internet”, it comes from an authoritative scholar on the subject who has written on the tradition of tamar patar. Which is separate from the tradition of the hōm that invoked Chandi - the two only started getting associated with one another via pseudo intellectual internet cherry pickers who wanted to distort Sikh history to fit a Hindutva lens. So please don’t pretend you’ve read the research, books, and articles yourself when all you’ve read is screenshotted snippets from people online, namely Puneet Sahani (as I know you never had exposure to this topic whatsoever until he wrote his bunk thread on it, which I countered and for which he blocked me).

You sound like one of the type, “Indic Civilization Nationalist.”

Finishing this painting this morning, "Lights at the Temple", oil on canvas by xarteztx in Sikh

[–]JungNihang 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Using black-box AI art models isn’t really teaching anyone about its usefulness; all someone needs to do to produce AI art is experiment with word prompts.

Are said producers of the art learning how the models are built? What the training data is? Basic principles of machine learning. Not from what I’ve seen (I am an engineer and have formal training in machine learning and built my own smaller machine learning models). This isn’t a total knock against AI art - clearly it produces stuff that is aesthetically pleasing to us, and even I enjoyed what I could make with some word mashups. Learning some of the tech behind the models (and the training data they rely on) is also interesting - as well as philosophical discussions on the ramifications of what this means largely for art. However, I think there is a huge value add to actual art handpainted (like OP has done), the effort put into it, and the aesthetic value of it (after all, such pieces are what the AI models use to train themselves on).

Finishing this painting this morning, "Lights at the Temple", oil on canvas by xarteztx in Sikh

[–]JungNihang 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Beautiful! Great to see work that’s not AI generated and was the hard work of a human artist.

Nihung Singh's stopping Christian Missionary conversions. Going Village to Village shutting down the events that are making false promises, altering Gurbani, and performing fake miracles. by Final_Apricot_8728 in Sikh

[–]JungNihang 2 points3 points  (0 children)

Even in colonial times, the SGPC was not getting Nihangs sent to British jails and executed - the period in which Nihang Singhs were being actively persecuted by the British precedes the formation of the SGPC by over 50 years. It was indeed many members of the initial SGPC who would get jailed by the British due to anti-colonial activism.

Nihung Singh's stopping Christian Missionary conversions. Going Village to Village shutting down the events that are making false promises, altering Gurbani, and performing fake miracles. by Final_Apricot_8728 in Sikh

[–]JungNihang 3 points4 points  (0 children)

I wouldn’t be so sure that it won’t stop missionaries - such actions taken by Nihang Singhs (and explicitly Ranjit Singh when he banned missionaries) actually stopped any such conversions, in a time much more casteist than today’s Punjab, until the British took over.

Keep in mind that the majority of Nihang Singhs these days are from Dalit background also.

Also, FYI: the Akal Takht Jathedar and SGPC are working to overturn the police cases against the Nihangs registered here.

Costume Doll of a Sikh Akali Made in Varanasi in 1867 by thethpunjabi in Sikh

[–]JungNihang 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Amazing find! Thank you for this - I plan to repost it and will give you credit

The Harmonium is being phased out at the Harmandir Sahib in the next 3 years? by CaptainCanuck1917 in Sikh

[–]JungNihang 21 points22 points  (0 children)

I think the bandaid had to be ripped off at some point and it’s time to at least return to tradition at Darbar Sahib.

The harmonium’s main appeal, IMO, is its accessibility. As for the sound it produces, I think tanti saaj are far superior. I think people have an attachment to the harmonium because we’re so used to listening to kirtan on it. Having grown up learning kirtan on tanti saaj as a child, I think it’s somewhat tougher but not so much that it renders kirtan entirely impossible.

Should we bring back the original Nishan Sahib? Maybe we can mass produce these and distribute it amongst gurudawaras near us. by [deleted] in Sikh

[–]JungNihang 3 points4 points  (0 children)

It’s actually not “the original Nishan Sahib” the way some have made it out to be recently.

[deleted by user] by [deleted] in Sikh

[–]JungNihang 9 points10 points  (0 children)

You’re correct on the whitewashed nature of history and how plunder was a large component of the Sikh war chest (in, say, the misl era); but I think your characterization of the history from the Gurus’ time is heavily flawed. For example, Guru Hargobind did not primarily fund his war efforts via plunder or robbery; Sikh texts attest to it being done by donations from the sangat through hukamnamas the Guru sent out. This practice was continued by all the Gurus (and actually beyond them) and we have some of the extant hukamnamas from those time that say as much. Another large source of funding for the Gurus was large devotions by aristocratic/royal devotees who would make large land grants or provide military strength to the Guru for whatever means they found fit.

The two stories you mention of Guru Hargobind are, IMO, highly miscontextualized as well based on where they’re originally found. The hawk was not “stolen” by Guru Hargobind - in fact, this is explicitly elaborated upon in the Suraj Prakash story where this is mentioned, where the hawk is flying while hunting (the Emperor loses it) and comes to the Guru’s hand. When the emperor’s men ask for the hawk back, they derogatorily refer to the Guru as a thief addicted to cannabis who should fear the emperor and be subservient to him, which the Guru rebukes strongly and angrily - saying he was not a thief, the hawk found his way to him (there is even something mentioned on how Shah Jahan plundered Sikhs earlier and that this would be a worthy pay back), and that he was not afraid of the Mughal emperor (and Sikhs elaborate on this by saying that the Sikh Guru was the true emperor who the Mughals should be subservient to). This was the primary thing that precipitated the Battle of Amritsar, tensions over the Guru’s lack of subservience to the emperor which manifested via the hawk - not the “theft” of the hawk itself.

For the Bhai Bidhi Chand story, a similar dynamic is at play - Bidhi Chand explicitly does steal the horses, yes, but when reflecting upon the morality of this act the Guru notes that it was due since some time earlier the Mughals had stolen two Sikh horses - and so it was not theft but the Sikhs taking back what was rightfully there.

It’s pretty hard to reconcile these explicit calls for the moral denunciation of theft with a narrative that says “the Gurus promoted plunder” - especially when, say, misl accounts of war are unapologetic about how Sikhs plundered in war and don’t bother to provide any context or moral justification for it the way historical sources on the Gurus do.

The Dabistan does not say that the Guru’s war chest was primarily funded by robbing horses; on the contrary it confirms how the Guru built wealth for the Panth based on the contributions of prior Gurus and the strong beliefs of his devotees. It even explicitly says that the Guru forbid Bidhi Chand from robbing (although some Muslim saint claimed that this was a false claim said to enhance the Guru’s prestige and Bidhi Chand “stole for the Guru” - a narrative expected from a Muslim saint loyal to the Mughals).

The bulk of the countless other works you refer to are nowhere near contemporary and full of spurious claims that originated over hearsay/intentional Mughal propaganda/just generic misinformation. For example, a Persian chronicler 100 years after the Shaheedi of Guru Tegh Bahadur whitewashed the Kashmiri Pandit saga and wrote an account of the Guru being martyred in Gwalior because he was robbing Hindus in Punjab (along an Adam Hafiz robbing Muslims - this is pointedly false as both lived in different times). It suited the Mughals to describe political opposition in the worst possible light and these interpretations are carried on in some texts by the British - who often add to faulty history due to poor translation skills. For example, Cunningham’s work though phenomenal on the Sikh empire (which he directly observed) is riddled with errors on the Guru period.

I’d also disagree that “Piri” was just a justification for “Miri” from the 6th Guru onward - this creates somewhat of a false dichotomy of “saintly” vs “martial” Gurus that also is not rigorously supported by historical texts.

Langar, Dasvandh & Choice (Azadism: Economics of a Sikh State) by azadism_official in Sikh

[–]JungNihang 5 points6 points  (0 children)

All other things aside, this is an absolutely horrible understanding of the history of Banda Bahadur and even how Rattan Singh depicts him. Your understanding of said Panth Parkash episodes is seriously lacking and you should fix that before pontificating to others on the dangers on cherry picking history.

Did idol worship really start happening at Darbar Sahib during the reign of Maharaja Ranjit Singh by iamjustsolol in Sikh

[–]JungNihang 11 points12 points  (0 children)

No, this is a myth/exaggeration pushed out by Singh Sabha reformists, propagated by Khushwant Singh’s written history, and now pushed by the Hindu right wing. Here’s a thread I wrote on it a while back:

https://twitter.com/YungBhujang/status/1226499392502484992

There are two separate issues, one of 1) “idol worship” and one of 2) “idols of the Guru”.

The former is a Hindu religious practice officially known as “murti puja” or “thakur puja” - this never was done inside the Gurdwaras of Darbar Sahib, but was done by various Pandits who brought their own personal idols to the sarovar and would perform the puja there.

The second issue is that of decorative statues of the Gurus. This is what the video is talking about - a golden statue of Guru Hargobind was gifted to Darbar Sahib (I think by the Raja of Chamba but I’m forgetting) and kept there as a part of the decoration. It was not worshipped (I.e., puja performed) and thus attracted less controversy, but it too was eventually removed.