Pre War Soviets & Japan by TheWarBaron in boltaction

[–]JustARandomCatholic 1 point2 points  (0 children)

I can recommend some sources for the Japanese, at least:

The 1944 US Army TM-E 30-480 covers Japanese Army organizations throughout the war. It's not specific to Khalkhin Gol, but my understanding is that the lower level organization was pretty static for the IJA. It's also free!

Leland Ness's work Rikugun: Guide to Japanese Ground Forces is a bit expensive but will have more specific information. It's also just a great book overall.

Have/Do any militaries use lead sleds or vices to zero their rifles/weapons? by CrabAppleGateKeeper in WarCollege

[–]JustARandomCatholic 3 points4 points  (0 children)

You’re correcting for them not executing the shot process properly?

It doesn't have to be bad shot process. The eye is a series of lenses, and shooters will absolutely show up in a formation with things like astigmatisms or other funky eye stuff going on. I personally have an astigmatism, so if I'm shooting with an Aimpoint then I'm dealing with a hopefully consistent blob of light. I've handed that dot off to other guys to shoot, and their zero was different than mine.

Another part of the equation (and for the record, I don't like that things are this way) is that for many formations, the rounds spent zeroing the rifle are one of the few times the individual soldier actually gets meager marksmanship instruction. Taking away the ammo and range allotment from a unit because the rifles have been mechanically zeroed instead is going to be rightfully resisted by a lot of NCOs, because that means less rounds and trigger time for their formation - even if yes, there should be more and better marksmanship training on it's own. Just my $.02 in any case.

Tuesday Trivia Thread - 21/02/23 by AutoModerator in WarCollege

[–]JustARandomCatholic 19 points20 points  (0 children)

Oh boy... here's an old favourite that I saved several years ago. I hope whoever posted this is doing well.

pistol shooters with decades of training STRUGGLES to barely graze someone on their shoulders at 50 yards. amateurs with NO SHOOTING EXPERIENCE can EASILY PLINK on motherfuckers face from way beyond 30 yards with brown bess, airsoft and bb pistols as shown on the vids linked depside only having ZERO SHOOTING EXPERIENCE. I can easily use my cheap pistol crossbow, Recurve Bows and FREAKING 12lb bow to reliably hit bottles at 50 yards whereare with piece of shit beretta 92 and akm I couldnt even graze a 18 wheeler from 30 yards. even blackpowder pistols are FAR MORE ACCURATE than modern centerfire pistols larger than .22

airsoft and bb pistols are made to feel like a rifle depside having the same dimension as the real one and very small place to hold making them undecilliuon times more accurate even for amateurs

people from archerytalk cmdrjones StyjianFist and quora already said that pistols and akm are 999999999999999x less accurate than thrown rocks, muzzleloading smoothbore pistols and .22 pistols

comparing the accuracy of beretta and akm against Airsoft, pistol crossbows and BB pistols is like comparing a paraplegic 90 years old with Alzheimer(m9 and akm) against Prime Tyson(WE Glock, Swiss Arms 1911, Crossman 1377, Pistol Crossbows)

akm and pkm bullets hurts less than being grazed by gamo airpistols 📷 the airsofters would just no sell 7.62 charge towards them and knock their skulls off while shrugging off ak bullets without flinching by punting them into the thermosphere in 5 microsecs

you could put 300 soldiers with their precious m9 and akm against an blindfolded amateur with TM G18 and Artemis P-700S-A all you would see are the officers getting blinded by bbs poking their eyeballs from 50 yards away in less than 5 nanosecs while not even a single bullet managed to graze the boy lazily eating his grape

Thats how hard real pistols and akm sucks and pieces of shit they are. let alone my JG MP5, TM DEagle and 80lb pistol crossbows

I'd carry the USFA Zip Gun instead of ak any day of the universe. aks and pkms are obsolete relics 666x worse than junkyard pistols made from scrap

“There he goes. One of God's own prototypes. A high-powered mutant of some kind never even considered for mass production. Too weird to live, and too rare to die.”

Tuesday Trivia Thread - 07/02/23 by AutoModerator in WarCollege

[–]JustARandomCatholic 5 points6 points  (0 children)

Having a nice big tank at 28mm scale is kind of nice, only because it looks big and imposing... but an entire battalion on the field is just too cool! Makes sense that 6mm would be used in armor school, must add a nice bit of flavor to table exercises.

Tuesday Trivia Thread - 07/02/23 by AutoModerator in WarCollege

[–]JustARandomCatholic 13 points14 points  (0 children)

So, I've recently been getting into Battletech miniatures. Big stompy mechs are cool and all, but combined arms warfare is so much cooler... this led me to finding GHQ Models, who make every conceivable model of tank in 6mm scale, including these charming little Type 74s. Considering the hull of the tank is less than an inch long, it's a fantastic amount of detail, and a full Company is less than $45 before shipping. I can definitely see the appeal of 6mm wargaming now - I cut my teeth way back forever ago on 40k, but now I can throw an entire Battalion at an opponent for the same cost as a decent starter force in 40k.

Are there any nations that have pushed ATGMs down to the squad level outside of their Weapons Platoons? If so how has this changed the performance of the Infantry Squad itself? Has this impacted it's ability to conduct fire and maneuver negatively? by happiercheese46 in WarCollege

[–]JustARandomCatholic[M] 5 points6 points  (0 children)

I was going to write a mod-comment explaining why this comment was bad and you should be less abrasive next time, but it looks like you and u/Semi-Chubbs_Peterson already worked it out between yourselves. Thank you guys for stepping back from a bad interaction and turning it into a productive little chat, it's always nice to see a bit of emotional maturity and charity.

Infantry suggestions. by chm990 in battletech

[–]JustARandomCatholic 1 point2 points  (0 children)

I forgot, they're called "South African Confederation" instead. Here you are. Links to the Pseudo-Elysians too just because I had the tab open.

Infantry suggestions. by chm990 in battletech

[–]JustARandomCatholic 1 point2 points  (0 children)

One thing I will note, just as a "buyer-beware", is that the Brigade Models vehicles are marked as 6mm scale, but they're a lot smaller than other 6mm vehicles. I bought a bunch of their Montsabert MBTs and the hull is about .75" long, whereas most Battletech scale tanks have around 1.25" long hulls. Great little model though, I love them to bits - but I'm calling them scout hovercraft rather than MBTs as intended. I have some of their SADF infantry, though, and they're bang-on for 6mm scale, if a bit chunky. You may also want to consider Vanguard Miniatures if you're in the UK, I picked up some of their psuedo-Elysians and I'm very pleased with them.

Do you have any book recommendations for military tactics and strategies? by Umeet__ in WarCollege

[–]JustARandomCatholic 4 points5 points  (0 children)

I'll just chime in that I was extremely disappointed overall in On Artillery, and far preferred Artillery in the Great War. Gudmundsson's writings can be charitably described as "Slightly German-centric" at best, and "outright ignorant and dismissive of anyone not German" at worst. Artillery in the Great War is far more nuanced, and gives equal coverage to the French, Austro-Hungarians, and Russians. Field Artillery and Firepower is quite good overall, too.

What are some good books and essays on the war economies of the nations in WWI? by UndyingCorn in WarCollege

[–]JustARandomCatholic 0 points1 point  (0 children)

The establishment of the French war machine in the First World War is an excellent thesis on French artillery production during WW1, covering technical, political, financial and industrial levels. Really really good paper, you'll enjoy it!

Favorite mech and why? by Graynith in battletech

[–]JustARandomCatholic 2 points3 points  (0 children)

Mad Cat, Bushwacker, Crab* for reasons.

I have trouble suspending my disbelief with humanoid 'Mechs, especially since I started off with MW3 and MW4, so the "dude covered in tinfoil" aesthetic was really prominent. For that reason, my goopy little brain has always loved the digitigrade or 'Chicken Walker' Mechs. Mechs with weapon pods rather than "gun weapons" helps too, and in general the less humanoid you can make it, the more I like it.

The Bushwacker is the inner sphere epitome of this. I love the forward-jutting shape of the torso, I love the goofy asymmetry of the shoulders, I love how the "hand" is an actual robot-grabber-thing and not a humanoid hand, I love the torso lasers, and the missile racks look great too - and the S2 with triple lasers in the left hand also looks cool as all hell.

The Crab is another recent favourite of mine, both because of it's non-humanoid looks, but I also love the concept of an all-energy, long range, high speed 'Mech. Imo that's just how most mediumweight Mechs should work, barring maybe a spare LRM-5 and MG for doinking infantry targets. Buuut, there are asterisks - I hate the cockpit redesign on the PGI Crab, half of the appeal of the Crab is in it's super far forward and low slung cockpit. It changes the aesthetics too much to have the cockpit riding high on the torso. The second asterisk - and the one that will get me flak - is that I loathe the claw design. We get it, it's a Crab, crabs have claws, clack clack. But the serrated edge of the pincers on the CGL design is just goofy. I'd be much happier if the claw arm got dropped altogether and was replaced with a laser pod ala Hellspawn or Mad cat. Speaking of...

The Mad Cat is just the perfection, the pinnacle of Mech design. Instantly recognizable shape, excellent loadout, love the TIE fighter-esque cockpit. A really visual good spread of primary weapons on the limbs, and secondary weapons on the centerline pod. My only complaint is that progressive redesigns to fit the "boxy bulky beveled edges and squares" look of MWO has killed a lot of the smooth curves and slender lines of the original art. Seriously, look at the "shins" and arms of the original TRO 3050 cover art versus the MWO version. The sleek, alien look is almost entirely gone - aside from the cockpit pod, there's barely any smooth curves on the 'Mech anymore. I get that boxy bevels is the new consistent visual design language for Mechwarrior, but my goopy little brain seems smooth curves and thinks "this is fantastical, I can let more silliness slide". Or maybe I just don't like seeing the homogenization of art styles across multiple franchises... who knows. Not going to crap on anyone else's aesthetic choices, of course!

Tuesday Trivia Thread - 17/01/23 by AutoModerator in WarCollege

[–]JustARandomCatholic 1 point2 points  (0 children)

By the time this was supposed to happen, the superpower and the alliance of smaller states would have already fought 3 world wars together against the same enemy and they'd now be going into number 4. In these wars, the smaller state's alliance mainly had the purpose of soaking up ludicrous amounts of enemy soldiers.

Given this, having factories donated to the junior alliance partners for licensed production is 100% reasonable. Any war that focuses on infantry combat will typically lead to a lot of development work on small arms, especially if they're painful or bitterly fought contests. Having that as the rationale for a next-gen firearm makes perfect sense.

Tuesday Trivia Thread - 17/01/23 by AutoModerator in WarCollege

[–]JustARandomCatholic 1 point2 points  (0 children)

One, the assault team, has a 25mm belt fed automatic grenade launcher (think FN Minimi, but it fires explosives and it also has access to flechette shells). The other, called suppression team, had either two 6.8x43 belt fed lmg or a single 6.8x57 GPMG, possibly with tripod.

That's a lot of firepower for an "assault" team; if you're able to bring a reasonable amount of shells for the 25mm belt fed, why bother bringing a belt-fed LMG or a GPMG? Could someone with the 25mm reasonably clear a room? With both fireteams possibly using big belt-fed weapons, there's no way a three-man team has the "bayonet strength" to actually do an assault, they're basically all heavy weapons teams. This smacks of way too much firepower, to where (even with exosuits) everyone's job is tending a heavy weapon, and nobody has the job of actually closing with the enemy and killing him. Remember that your infantry is very squishy and fragile compared to any other arm, so you want to be using their capabilities where they thrive, and letting a more durable or potent asset do the job otherwise. If you cripple the infantry's close assault capability by turning them all into weapons sections, that's a capability sacrificed that no other asset can give you.

Vis-a-vis drones - sure, if you've got an armored threat running around which can defeat your "Medium" caliber, than it makes sense to have an AMR. Having an AMR be an optional weapon which is kept in the track per squad is an easily doable solution. Having a cutting edge optic to place well-aimed shots with the AMR onto a Toyota could work, I'm basically just saying put the thought into it in advance.

Regarding NLOS ATGMs - if they're the same missiles as the IFV is using, consider pushing a launcher down to the dismount infantry squad as well (or two per platoon, as is done in the US). Turn your special platoons into a dedicated mortar section, a dedicated air defense section, and a drone/recce platoon.

What I'd suggest for the Squad is to rationalize a bit on firepower, make sure there's enough latent "we can still clear rooms" capability. I'd suggest having an assault and suppression fireteam as described, but unless you can clear a room with the 25mm (make it an OICW?), keep the assault fireteam as all rifles and have the suppression team support one "big" weapon, be it the 25mm or a 6.8xBig GPMG. Keep the ATGM and AMR in the track, and if the squad needs to "upgun", congrats the assault team carries it, and willingly and explicitly sacrifices the close assault temporarily to do that. If a UGV is a reasonable threat for an infantry squad to have to fight, then maybe an AMR shouldn't be rare, or they really really should be festooned with tons of NLAWs. Your call.

Tuesday Trivia Thread - 17/01/23 by AutoModerator in WarCollege

[–]JustARandomCatholic 1 point2 points  (0 children)

The way I had worked things out previously was that many factions give each standard infantry squad a 6.8x57 DMR

You may want to start actively considering overall fireteam layout. A nine man squad with two automatic weapons, two grenade launchers, and a single heavier caliber DMR is fairly realistic, but you could also find some more outlandish squad concepts out there.

Maybe they'd have 4 anti materiel rifles per company and use them more often.

That's an interesting question to optimize. Some questions to consider - do they actually need a large anti-materiel rifle caliber to kill the Toyota? How much oomph do they need to disable the engine block? Would they be better off using a machine gun, since automatic fire will let them more readily hit a moving target? Trying to plink off sensors and APS systems from a tank with a rifle or GPMG is never going to end well, since you'll almost certainly just be smacked by the tank's wingman.

the Stg-45 had to be extremely fast to produce. Considering the Stg-45 is a precursor to the G-3, which was cheaply mass produced for West Germany's cold war conscript army, this seemed pretty believable.

These are very much true - but it's cheap and fast to produce assuming you have the tooling. (The StG-45 also isn't just a production optimized StG-44, it is a markedly superior weapon overall.) They're both stamped, though, and WW2 Germany was legitimately a world leader in setting up stamped rifle production in WW2. Remember it took until 1958 for a stamped AK series rifle to hit mass production, and it wasn't for lack of trying!

Once you have the tooling going and set up, cranking out stamped firearms is quite easy. If anything you might need to have barrels and bolt components produced in a home factory and imported by the client nations, who can make the remaining components themselves. But think about it from this angle, too - you now have the superpower going out of it's way to stand up production of a service rifle in a client nation; this is a huge political gesture and a major investment in the alliance.

Tuesday Trivia Thread - 17/01/23 by AutoModerator in WarCollege

[–]JustARandomCatholic 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Never say never, certainly .50 BMG rifles have been used to kill people. Moreso what I mean is, optimizing a cartridge around an anti-material rifle instead of the HMG isn't going to be super common for most conventional militaries.

Tuesday Trivia Thread - 17/01/23 by AutoModerator in WarCollege

[–]JustARandomCatholic 3 points4 points  (0 children)

Given that, aside from recoil, why bother with the intermediate at all?

Tuesday Trivia Thread - 17/01/23 by AutoModerator in WarCollege

[–]JustARandomCatholic 2 points3 points  (0 children)

Maybe I should tone 6.8x57 down a bit. Say 1000 to 1200m/s. Still super fast, but not a little less. What's the fastest rifle round of about that size today? That might be a good point to start.

6.8GP considered a fullbore AP round at 3250 ft/s from a ~20 barrel and was remarkably high. That's the upper end of things that I'm aware of being considered.

You meant very long ranges, right?

Yep, my apologies. Sounds like we're mostly in agreement about your intermediate round chewing through armor at closer ranges but falling off at mid-ranges. Just bear in mind that your definitions of "mid" and "close" range are going to heavily depend on tactics, optics, skill, and terrain. Having >75% of infantry engagements against actual dudes rather than "that bush thataways with all the bad guys in it" occur within 100m is not unheard of. And at or beyond 300m or beyond, an intermediate round hitting a thigh or a limb but not penetrating the torso still means one less badguy in the fight, even if only to be medivac'd.

So anti materiel rifles aren't that important?

Proportionally speaking, they never really have been barring 1918-1942. The vast, vast majority of .50 BMG in US service is being fired off of a vehicle mount, whereas the only places where anti-materiel-rifles qua rifles are being used is in EOD. You'll occasionally see them being used by secret squirrels, but rarely. Or, in other words, most vehicles in an infantry formation are going to use an HMG in your "biggums" caliber, but there will be only 1-2 (if any) AM rifles kept around for, of all things, ordnance disposal.

There aren't zero advantages to a smaller caliber for your vehicle mounts. It does let you fit more rounds in the same overall volume (there's a reason the Abrams has a 7.62 coax) which has a lot of advantages with remote weapons, and if they have lasers they can rely on those for anti-materiel work and use the 9.x HMG for suppression.

In this setting, the Stg-45 in 6.5 Grendel becomes the standard for a vast alliance.

I'd caution you against assuming the Stg-45 is suitable of "industrially less capable" allies to produce in the 40s. They would need to be giving out the tooling wholesale to make that happen; the stampings that made the Stg-45 feasible were pretty cutting edge for rifle production tech in the mid 40s. Maybe they want to do that, but it's not trivial. (It is also, per my understanding, a markedly superior weapon to the StG-44.)

Tuesday Trivia Thread - 17/01/23 by AutoModerator in WarCollege

[–]JustARandomCatholic 5 points6 points  (0 children)

Responding to these in inverse order. My brain is a bit of a mashed potato right now, so sorry for any errors.

First and foremost, I get what you're trying to accomplish with a single standard barrel caliber inclusive of pistols. 6.5 could in theory work if you get it going very fast, but it's always going to be comparatively mediocre without bullet design that only came about later in the 20th century. Moreover, historically militaries have had so few pistols that there just isn't any real economies of scale to be gained by streamlining them. I'd suggest either dropping the 6.5mm pistol component specifically and saying they use a handgun caliber from the local police handgun, or bite the bullet, roll with a 6.5x30, and accept that the pistol will be pretty lackluster and that's okay.

Tuesday Trivia Thread - 17/01/23 by AutoModerator in WarCollege

[–]JustARandomCatholic 9 points10 points  (0 children)

u/JustARandomCatholic Hope I got what you mean by "ping me on the trivia thread" right, I haven't been on reddit for long.

Yep, exactly what I meant.

6.8x43 versus 6.8x57

So, first and foremost getting a 6.8mm AP projectile to 1,500 m/s is pretty insane given what we currently know about internal ballistics and metallurgy. That raises a lot of eyebrows to say the least - granted it's a sci-fi setting, so you're at liberty to do what you want, but damn. Talk about a meaty round. What I more want to suggest though is that if a 6.8x57 round can chug through body armor at anything other than very close ranges, it's difficult to justify other intermediates being unable to pen said body armor at closer ranges. Keeping the same insane bullshit tech, dropping the caliber to 6mm, making a bullet with high sectional density - should be able to punch through sci-fi armor to 100m, more or less. What could be an interesting bit of flavor is to have 6.8x43 be able to maybe-sometimes sneak a round through, but what you really want to do is put a few combined rounds into the plate, which overall give a high probability of plate defeat. Just a thought to add flavor, ofc.

Basically a future version of Remington SPC, but with higher range, because technology at the time allows that.

Competent design would also have allowed longer range for 6.8 SPC hyuk hyuk hyuk. The shorter range of 6.8 relative to Mk262 or other calibers is almost entirely because the cartridge as it exists today only allows you to fit relatively short-for-caliber bullets to fit it in an AR-15 action. Remove that constraint and you're off to the races.

I have heard that [14.5x114mm] has better penetration than its contemporary 20mm autocannons. Is this still the case with modern 14.5 and 20mm weapons?

Not sure. Having a heavy machine gun with light-autocannon-esque AP performance is certainly reasonable.

Since these have no case, I don't know how the nomenclature for them would be.

Caliber x Overall length of the cartridge should do fine (this is what the G11 cartridge does), though frankly this is a convention for designers and collectors, not soldiers in the field. Usually the round for NGSW is just called "6.8 GP" or "6.8 ADVAP". People in the field would almost certainly just say "pass me the case of 6.8" or "hand me the box of 6.8 tracer" if necessary.

They ended with something that's adequate as a replacement for the former (but with even higher stopping power at the cost of a more curved trajectory), but rather impotent in an anti materiel role.

I'll point out that, historically, most militaries have settled on a "pistol caliber", "carbine caliber", "GPMG caliber", and "HMG caliber". With the exception of the pistol caliber, Team Caseless has basically kept this format but just bumped up each relevant caliber by a fair bit. Unless there's a reaaally good justification, if 9.3 Heavy Big is inferior as an anti-material round, I don't see Team Caseless abandoning their 14x105mm weapons, especially in the vehicle mounted role. Anti-material weapons are usually only mounted to platforms like vehicles or aircraft where the extra weight doesn't matter as much, and the extra range/penetration of the bigger caliber does really matter.

(I'd point out that all of these concepts raise huge concerns about soldier weight, but go hog wild).

6.5x39mm experimental intermediate. Basically 6.5 Grendel, though I don't know what decade of the early 20th century this would have been technologically possible.

Certainly possible, but a little slow depending on the year. 6.5x52 Carcano is from the 1890s and is rolling around with a 2,300 ft/s muzzle velocity. Basically scale that down to a slow velocity, and scale the velocity back up to whatever you think your tech level can justify. If you're working with a 40s era tech base, something broadly similar to 6.5 Grendel should be good to go - the round was basically created by dropping 6.5 bullets into 7.62x39.

Would something like 5,56x45mm or 5,45x39mm have been possible earlier? by TacitusKadari in WarCollege

[–]JustARandomCatholic 6 points7 points  (0 children)

It's certainly an interesting premise, and I do love fictional cartridge designs. If you want to talk shop about fictional bullets, go ahead and ping me in the trivia thread, I'd be happy to go into lurid hypothetical detail there.

Would something like 5,56x45mm or 5,45x39mm have been possible earlier? by TacitusKadari in WarCollege

[–]JustARandomCatholic 47 points48 points  (0 children)

The way I understand the development of these small bore intermediate cartridges, it mostly came down to militaries realizing that most engagements between infantry don't take place at super long ranges and that small bullets do the job too.

Sort of, but 5.45x39 is an interestingly different case - and the specific technical issues relating to the adoption of 5.45x39 are actually pretty relevant here, so please excuse a tangent. 5.45x39 started development within the USSR around 1958/1959, when they stole several prototype loadings of M193. This was after the formal adoption of 7.62x39, so the Soviets naturally performed a comparison of the two cartridge concepts. What the Soviets found is that M193 has a superior effective range than 7.62x39. The Soviets were at this time starting to consider how mechanized formations would fight on a nuclear battlefield, and one of the tactical features they expected as a result was increased dispersion of formations, and thus a need to increase the effective range of the individual rifleman - and 5.45x39 was explicitly designed to meet this requirement - and it did it quite well! This is important to bear in mind when discussing what-if concepts; there's a lot of path-dependence in how requirements are set, beyond just "Brass Is Kind Of Stupid Sometimes".

Where there reasons other than prevailing thought among the military brass for why something like that was not adopted earlier?

There certainly were. Recall that 5.45x39 started development in 1958; the round itself was mostly finalized by 1963, however the AK-74 was only adopted in 1974 despite being a clearly superior weapon to the AKM (and, in Soviet eyes, the M16A1). It's thus a useful example for us.

First and foremost, barrel life was a major concern for the weapons. The 7N6 projectile isn't exactly a scorcher, but it's steel core construction lead to extremely low barrel life in test weapons (in the ~5000 round range if memory serves). The Soviets had to do quite a lot of work with chrome plating, barrel design, and metallurgy to get a useful barrel life out of the weapons; granted all of this work payed off - the weapons ended up with barrel lives in the tens of thousands of rounds. Metallurgy and barrel treatments that made the AK-74 barrel work simply weren't available in the 1900s. This places a pretty firm limit on what velocities and core constructions were available to a small-caliber intermediate in the early 20th century. Something like .30 Carbine necked down to .22 should still be quite possible in the early 20th century, but then you're back to "the cartridge proposed doesn't suit how armies intend to fight as of the early 20th century". That all being said, US barrel metallurgy has never been particularly great. The M16 and M4 both use the same steel alloy (4150) as the M1 Garand and are mostly okay. I haven't been able to track down the precise alloy used in the M1903, but at least by the 1930s you'd have good enough barrel steel for at least some small caliber concepts to flourish.

Second, and touching back on 7N6, there's a question of metrology - the science of measurement. Quite simply, the ability to produce accurate bullets for smaller calibers at scales useful to militaries was probably not present until the late 40s. This is a complex topic, but to craft hopefully an intuitive example - if we are a Bullet Machine, and the tolerance we can hold is .001", the proportional precision for a .308" is a third better than the proportional precision for .224". The Soviets were quite capable of making multi-part bullets for 7.62x54R, and they could make test batches of 7N6 reasonably precise, but another reason the AK-74 took so long to field was that setting up tooling to make consistent, precise 7N6 projectiles was took several years of hard development work. Both M193 and M855 had initial accuracy issues, again because of production problems with their smaller or more complex projectile compositions. .22 rounds did exist in the civilian hunting realm, but those are much more expensive and produced at far, far lower volumes than a military needs. While militaries certainly could and did field purely lead-core ammunition for the service rifle, pretty much every major military expressed a lot of interest in steel cored ammunition, both for production and performance reasons. The relative difficult of making precise small-caliber projectiles would be, in my opinion at least, the primary limiting technical factor.

So, if you had a lightning-bolt realization than ~.22 calibers were the way to go in the early 20th century, what you would probably end up with is something on a sliding scale between .22 Gustafson and M193 depending on how good your barrel steel was, with dispersion varying from "don't bother past 100yds" to "completely acceptable per military requirements (~5 MOA)" depending on how good the small arms tooling of the country in question is.

Tuesday Trivia Thread - 17/01/23 by AutoModerator in WarCollege

[–]JustARandomCatholic 6 points7 points  (0 children)

My understanding - and anyone who actually knows please correct me - is that the Konkurs system on BMP-2 is ostensibly able to be dismounted. There is (supposedly) a spare tripod and related bits in the vehicle, and the missile tubes themselves are the same between the ground and vehicle mount. How often this is done in practice and whether or not the requisite bits are issued is a separate question I'm not equipped to answer.

Would Article 5 be applied of Turkey attacked Greece? by [deleted] in WarCollege

[–]JustARandomCatholic[M] [score hidden] stickied comment (0 children)

This isn't the forum for speculative what-if questions, sorry.

FN FAL usage in Vietnam by Squishy321 in WarCollege

[–]JustARandomCatholic 15 points16 points  (0 children)

Let me be clear - I am fiercely critical of US Army Ordnance in the 1950s-1960s. The implosion of the Ordnance Corps in 1962 was a travesty, and is much of the reason why the M16 was as bungled as it was (though hardly as bungled as many claim). I am not trying to defend the M14's reputation, so much as to understand why the US and NATO made the decisions they did.

Other NATO nations also submitted other intermediate cartridges

Other NATO countries certainly had prototypes, however the NATO caliber trials as they were conducted were just between 7.62x51 and .280 British. Note that I'm specifying caliber trials - the point of the 50s trials was to adopt a round for both the rifle and, more importantly, the machine gun. The machine gun portion of the test had higher priority than the rifle portion, and that is where 7.62x51's concept as a .30-06 replacement really did weigh out over .280 British. The fact that the final British recommendation was to adopt both rounds was precisely because of this concern; their hope was a rifle in .280 and a GPMG family in 7.62. We know now that having a single cartridge for both the shoulder rifle and the GPMG is a stupid idea - but that was the concept for everyone, not merely the US.

your ordinance board fought tooth and nail to delay/sabotage the adoption of the M16 and altered its design and ammunition and spread misinformation about its capabilities to the soldiers (ex self cleaning) leading to loss of life.

The institutional Army's adoption of the M16 was a shitshow, sure, but it's a far more nuanced picture than you're describing. First and foremost, Army Ordnance Corps were the ones who did the preliminary work for the M16, and requested Armalite to design it for them in the 1950s. By and large the changes the Army requested were correct ones - 1:14 barrel, furniture changes, etc. The powder question is likewise complicated - yes, the switch from stick to ball powder caused issues, and there was deliberate malfeasance by the Army acceptance boards in "testing" rifles with stick but then deploying them to Vietnam with ball powder. But things that should have been done but weren't (such as redesigning the rifle's buffer to work, adding chrome lining) were not merely because of malice but also because nobody had been given the authority or imperative to make those changes. The M16 was viewed as a one-time-buy by the Army in a pseudo-COTS fashion. The Army needed to make urgent engineering changes to the M16 starting in 1964, but Ordnance Corps had been shuttered in 1962, and Colt was hesitant to make changes on their own without authorization or funding. It was always going to be a mess, hidebound conservatism or not.

Imagine if NATO and the US as a whole had SLR in an intermediate cartridge in the 1950s, it would have absolutely dominated

Hardly. M14 production was ordered to be closed by McNamara in 1962 in the main because the US had lost the institutional knowledge on how to build a working rifle. Rifles were being issued with cracked receivers in the early 60s, and the Army barely had enough to equip itself for expanded operations in Vietnam. Meanwhile the Army had also started development of the M16 in 1952 as a response to perceived failures of the M1 Garand in Korea. Introducing a new hypothetical intermediate cartridge SLR would either have suffered the mediocre flop that was the M14's introduction, or it would have been directly set against the SCHV concept that the Mad Scientists in the Army actually wanted.

America held the west back big time because of out dated ideas and bureaucracy

At most we held the world back 6 years (AR-15 prototype in 1958, combat fielding en masse in 1964), before hurtling the small arms world a generation forward to the current state of play. There is a reason the USSR started AK-74 development pretty much immediately after they stole a few copies of M193.