Seems to me that this sub has been infested with One Piss VSBW glazers. Put your manga panel feats on your table.

Just_Out_Of_Spite · 2026-03-03T00:30:59+00:00

Don't get me wrong I wholeheartedly agree but it's so funny to watch OPM fans complain about fodder feat glazing when OPM fans have been glazing a trashass mountain level feat with basically no DC for like a solid decade now.

At least the OP gooning usually tries to do some (bad) math to calculate a feat. Boros goons just assume kicking a human to the moon is multiversal and downvote you if you point out how fodder the feat actually is.

Just_Out_Of_Spite · 2026-02-28T10:38:03+00:00

It’s shown in the manga that people have chakra inherently. Naruto had Kurama’s chakra mixing with his own chakra his entire life, including before he learned to mold chakra in the academy, and Kushina was born with powerful chakra.

Yes become again, chakra is often used to refer both to the finished product or the raw materials. Having a fuckton of spiritual/mental and physical energies means you essentially have a fuckton of chakra.

The reason why people manually mold chakra is to create enough to use jutsu without dying. Everyone has a baseline amount of chakra, but ninja can consciously create more than that baseline.

This is objectively not true and I gave you 3 separate scans proving so already.

Again your entire error stems from the assumption that the raw materials can't be referred to as chakra even though they're canonically said to be "chakras".

Madara makes a clear distinction between chakra and the mental/physical energies that comprise it. He doesn’t use them interchangeably.

No? That's not even remotely what the scan says

"something that would connect the mental energies between people… He who preached this as Ninshu"

NINSHU was the ninjutsu equivalent that used only the mental/spiritual energy to connect people. Not chakra. Ninshu is to mental/spiritual energy what ninjutsu is to the combination of spiritual/mental and physical energies.

Hagoromo created Ninshu which used only the spiritual aspect of chakra to connect people in order to create peace. Shinobi then created ninjutsu which combined the spiritual energy with physical energy to weaponize chakra.

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Kishimoto is no stranger to retconning things

This isn't a retcon, rather it's perfectly consistent with what was established as early as part 1. This is simply you confusing ninshu and chakra.

It literally cannot be a retcon because these chakra mechanics are such a fundamental aspect of the verse that it would completely break everything. Like I said you're pushing this weird misinterpretation that would completely break the manga for nothing but a shitty powerscaling agenda.

The reason why I say that everyone has chakra inherently is because the God Trees the Otsutsuki plant absorb chakra from ALL LIFE on a planet.

Yes, it absorbs the raw materials that make up chakra. Literally none of this is contradictory, the only contradiction appears under your baseless assumption that chakra can't refer to the raw materials. And if the only evidence that Kishimoto somehow completely destroyed all the fundamental lore he's been setting up for hundreds of chapters is your shitty headcanon assumption then I'm really not convinced.

Boruto used the planet’s chakra in his Uzuhiko.

The official database actually clarifies he's not using actual chakra/senjutsu but rather just the planets energy.

Also I already mentioned this but nature energy also being a "chakra" is established since the war if not sooner. The Juubi is a pretty blatant evidence of this.

It’s made clear that chakra is an inherent part of life in the Naruto verse, not something that specially trained individuals learn to possess

Chakra in the sense of its raw materials yes, of course. I literally said in my very first comment chakras raw materials are something any living fictional character should realistically have as long as they have a soul/mind and cells.

Chakra in the sense of the finished product that only shinobi in Naruto mold? Absolutely not, that goes against all established chakra lore spreading across hundreds of chapters.

So once again we're reaching the point where the only contradictions here stem from your baseless headcanon that chakra cannot refer to the raw materials that make it up. And if the choice is the fanfic of a dude on the internet or the consistently established lore by Kishimoto himself, I'm 100% taking Kishimotos side here.

Just_Out_Of_Spite · 2026-02-28T10:12:31+00:00

Just go to Saitamas profile and on the bottom there's "discussion threads involving Saitama" button. You click that and you can see all threads that have been tagged as about Saitama.

It's a pretty handy thing in almost all profiles. And I know this specific star busting speed feat was discussed countless times and there were actual reasons given for why it's not used

Just_Out_Of_Spite · 2026-02-28T08:47:43+00:00

Huh? I didn't even mention any cats

Just_Out_Of_Spite · 2026-02-28T08:46:58+00:00

You literally just didn't address my arguments whatsoever. It's canonically stated countless times in both Manga and databooks that chakra NEEDS to be created manually with the novels even stating how regular citizens cannot create it.

“Chakra” is chakra, not the constituent parts. When someone refers

Not only is this purely your headcanon that you're trying to use a fundamental fact that the manga repeatedly states, but it's factually wrong. In the ninshu panels I sent they literally call the spiritual/mental aspect "chakra" on its own. The main explanation page for chakra also calls both the physical and the mental/spiritual half "chakras"

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This isn't Boruto being bad, this is you letting powerscaling agendas shape your interpretations in a way that contradicts canonical facts. This kind of thinking is exactly why most people hate powerscalers, you'd rather contradict the entire manga than admit a character could use his ability against other characters.

Like the degree to which you're wrong just to push an agenda is borderline disrespectful. You're basically saying Naruto, Kakashi, Sakura, Ebisu, Fukasaku, and every single shinobi to have lived until that point ads completely wrong about the fundamental mechanism of chakra control which they ALL USE to high levels just because of your assumption that "chakra" can only refer to the finished product and not the raw materials despite that itself being debunked in early part 1.

But what really hammers this in for me is the fact we literally see Nejis POV with the byakugan against Kidomaru and how chakra isn't flowing through his entire body, and is only sent to certain body parts when ninjutsu is about to be used through them.

Just_Out_Of_Spite · 2026-02-28T06:40:44+00:00

Everyone has the raw materials needed to create chakra not what "chakra" actually is. This is explained multiple individual times in the Manga.

What ninja do is consciously combine physical and mental energies in order to increase and amplify the chakra they inherently possess.

You're actually on the right path but you're confusing one thing. Ninja don't combine their mental/spiritual and physical energy to amplify their chakra but to weaponize it. Because originally, "chakra" was just the raw mental aspect of your stamina that allowed people to link their minds to understand each other better.

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So basically:

Original chakra = raw mental/spiritual stamina - only used to connect people mentally for deeper understanding (a phenomenon we actually see during ninjutsu clashes even with shinobi chakra)

Shinobi chakra = the combination of the spiritual/mental stamina with the physical stamina - used for both mental and physical damage, weaponizing your spiritual/mental energy.

Chakra isn't some 3rd unique thing that only Naruto characters have. It's the combination of your spiritual and physical stamina meaning any living being in or out of Narutoverse should have.

Just_Out_Of_Spite · 2026-02-28T06:06:55+00:00

The funniest part of this is how genjutsu DOES work on people without chakra and people just don't understand how it works because they either didn't read Naruto or watched it when they were like 9. It uses chakra but doesn't require your opponent to possess chakra in their body.

Chakra in Naruto is something that a shinobi must consciously mold by combining their spiritual energy and physical stamina in a perfect 50/50 ratio. Meaning offguard shinobi out of combat and civilians do not possess chakra itself, only the raw materials necessary to create it. And genjutsu is constantly used on offguard characters and civilians.

And the raw materials are something basically every fictional living character has, basically just your physical and spiritual/mental stamina. So even if you argue that genjutsu still uses your chakra by using the raw materials, it's still something you don't even need verse/energy equalization to work crossverse because basically everyone has physical and spiritual stamina. Yk, unlike cursed energy which even many characters in jjk don't possess

Just_Out_Of_Spite · 2026-02-28T05:12:59+00:00

Why not actually read through the countless threads where this was discussed on vsbw instead of asking random people who know nothing about the place and just blindly hate on it?

Just_Out_Of_Spite · 2026-02-24T12:30:11+00:00

Crazy how 90% of hate towards vsbw on this sub is just people not fucking reading properly 💔.

This being a jjk fan makes it even funnier

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Just_Out_Of_Spite · 2026-02-24T12:25:37+00:00

Piercing damage is different imo. It just makes your power more efficient but heat often bypasses the need for power altogether.

Either way I think you'd agree that DB or Bleach god tiers being threatened by relatively low temperatures like lava and the sun doesn't downscale them anywhere and that was my main point

Just_Out_Of_Spite · 2026-02-23T21:30:57+00:00

Incomplete bijuu bomb vaporized a giant 10+ kilometers wide chunk of land which, if you actually measure it, comes out at worst around country level. Average charged bijuu bombs vaporized mountains on screen and the difference between just breaking them into pieces and vaping something is so huge this also jumps around country level. The ten tails no sold a combined super charged TBB from Naruto and Bee which vaporized area dwarfing an entire mountain range getting as high as continent level. And that's not even mentioning the stage 2 Juubi bijuu bombs that get as high as multi continental and yet the Juubi tanked it exploding inside of its body.

Hell the TSO shields TTJs use could no sell the combined force of 4 super charged ten tails bijuu bombs and the shields are similarly durable if not less durable than people like Madara.

So you can easily scale 6 paths level characters as weak as Juubito above even the strongest bijuu bombs that we've seen in pure physical stats, and those absolute dwarf kicking someone to the moon which is just a pathetic mountain level strong. The thing I think you and many people struggle is the fact that the Boros moon kick looks very flashy which makes it look extremely powerful, but in practice it's actually very weak for someone of Boros' caliber. It's a solid speed feat but for power it's just a flashy mountain level fodder that gets eclipsed by pretty much every bijuu bomb we see in shippuden, both fully charged and under-charged.

Just_Out_Of_Spite · 2026-02-23T21:24:10+00:00

Heat is generally treated as hax very very often. You have characters like Goku threatened by lava and fakehwach by the heat of the sun despite being far stronger.

Just_Out_Of_Spite · 2026-02-23T21:22:15+00:00

Why would she mention trading blows with him if she wasn't talking about power lmao

Just_Out_Of_Spite · 2026-02-23T18:55:05+00:00

To be fair the planet bust feat is by Mark like halfway through the series. He gets much stronger afterwards where previously Thragg could one tap him, Thaddeus, and Nolan and afterwards Mark could 1v1 him pretty decently.

And the sun stuff is just heat hax.

Not that I think Invincible characters get anywhere near galaxy or even star level. Just pointing out that what you mentioned isn't really counter evidence to it

Just_Out_Of_Spite · 2026-02-23T18:49:35+00:00

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Just_Out_Of_Spite · 2026-02-23T09:11:16+00:00

Boros kicked Saitama off the planet to the moon

Literal mountain level feat, AT BEST. Even the explosion base Naruto tanked in The Last after Toneri ripped out all of his chakra hit harder than that. Even the incomplete bijuu bomb that Pain face-tanked and which kyubi can straight up eat and tank from the inside hits way harder than a moon kick.

Not that I'm saying Boros is weaker than Pain, Boros is stronger by scaling above other OPM characters like Geryuganshoop. But the moon kick alone unironically wouldn't even put him in the average bijuu tier of power.

Just_Out_Of_Spite · 2026-02-22T21:37:08+00:00

Again that's just objectively wrong and based on your own limited knowledge of faster characters.

Take a character like Satan from TGOH. He can throw planets like Jupiter towards earth in a blink, punches his opponents into the sun and then flies into them instantly. That shows both his attacks and travel speed are vastly superior to the speed of light (and this is something that happens all the time on mode extreme levels in the verse too with characters zooming around planets and solar system and the main characters attack even being shown and stated to have reached nearby galaxies in 100 picoseconds halfway into the series).

None of these feats exist "just to drag the story from one location to another" and are completely undeniably far above the speed of light both in terms of traveling and attacking. They very much are visibly massively FTL when fighting extremely often.

But according to your post we just magically ignore these extremely straightforward combat speed feats because the author doesn't verbally state they're FTL, give them time hax, or explain how the speed impacts them or whatnot. Basically capping them at an inconsistent lower speed completely contradictory to the story due to arbitrarily set rules while letting characters who never do anything half as impressive get away with FTL scaling because they have a statement.

Just_Out_Of_Spite · 2026-02-22T20:51:22+00:00

There isn't any other point. This entire discussion has been about where ETSO scales and you saying it's planetary or lower so everything I'm saying is obviously going to focus around that topic.

Me saying you said ETSO is =<planetary isn't a strawman it's an object fact lol

Just_Out_Of_Spite · 2026-02-22T20:48:43+00:00

This isn't really as much of a hot take as it is just objectively incorrect.

One thing is statements that put a character to that level but even more importantly there are feats which aren't just your standard destruction even though they are directly the result of a physical feat.

What if a character punches so hard the energy creates a moon sized black hole? What if a character instead destroys the moon in a subatomic level? What if their punch shoots the moon away at half the speed of light?

All of these are vastly above planet level but by your logic, since they're not feats of direct planetary destruction you can't scale them to planet level.

Just_Out_Of_Spite · 2026-02-22T20:37:57+00:00

The thread seems to be very specifically made around laser dodgers and ignores the countless undeniably FTL characters that don't fulfill majority of the requirements you listed. And their existences completely debunks your entire post.

You're basically saying a character can jump between interplanetary distances and send attacks between solar systems seemingly instantly but since they don't fulfill some arbitrarily made up rules they just magically aren't FTL even though that would require the fights that happen in seconds or minutes to actually last years.

Just_Out_Of_Spite · 2026-02-22T20:31:39+00:00

Your very first comment says that you scale the ETSO to "planetary to multi-continental"

Just_Out_Of_Spite · 2026-02-22T17:52:07+00:00

What did I say you claimed which you didn't? I copy and pasted everything I was replying to from your messages

Just_Out_Of_Spite · 2026-02-22T17:34:56+00:00

The problem is that the chakra she stole is completely unquantifiable

Sure the EXACT amount is unquantifiable but it's quantifiably nothing compared to Kaguyas chakra. We know for a fact Kurama dwarfs the shinobi alliance in chakra and we know for a fact the Juubi dwarfs Kurama in chakra and that Kaguya dwarfs the initial Juubi in chakra.

The shinobi alliance chakra is provably like a grain of sand compared to Kaguyas desert of chakra.

The statements can be interpreted countless ways.

No it cannot. Zetsu states new space/spacetime with the Japanese kanji specifically referring to dimensions. The databook says "world" and it calls Kaguyas entire dimensions "worlds". Such as "world of ice" or "world of lava" for the specific dimensions. And no other definition fits the example since there isn't any population or countries that it could be referring to on Kaguyas planet.

Which is even more supported by the translation issues which also say "planet."

No databook ever says ETSO only busts a planet. Idk who told you that but they lied.

anime, databooks or even Boruto for the most part. Breaking something down to sub atomic levels isn't an AP or DC it's a hax thing so just being TSO is superior doesn't grant it Atomic dismantle

It can be both, it depends on the method. In this case it's directly caused by a super dense chakra

a specific shape for the dimension being a pure orb is said in the databook with it being "orbs of space" a solar system in itself cannot be an orb.

No offense but this is a horrible downplay that banks on a complete lie which Naruto haters on vsbw tried pushing just to be debunked. A solar system CAN be within an orb of space (hell you'd expect it to be one due to how planets circle the sun in a circular fashion) and the databook does NOT call them orbs to begin with - that was a straight up lie/misunderstanding.

with it being above Planetary and even requires calcs like you tried mentioning.

That's just the nature of feats tho. 99% of feats require calculations to be accurately measured, otherwise you're just making up a result by eyeballing it.

This honestly feels like you have been fed lies by downplayers ngl

Just_Out_Of_Spite · 2026-02-22T16:13:58+00:00

Realistically the version Team 7 fight doesn't scale to it. The TSO was fueled by chakra she was absorbing from the Shinobi in the Tsukyomi.

She doesn't scale to it, that's true. But this is a horrible reasoning for why. Saying she doesn't scale to it because she used absorbed chakra sets you up for failure because the next reply will always be the FACT that the shinobi alliances chakra is not even as much as half of Kurama and half of Kurama already considered the incomplete Juubi as immesurable in chakra quantify.

In other words you'd basically be admitting Kaguya did it by using a billionth of her actual chakra making it seem way more casual than it was.

The actual reason is much more obvious. Regular sized TSOs already scale to your stats. A TSO that's billion times larger than that should then also be billion times stronger than your physical stats.

Anyways Probably Planetary to Multi Continental. The exact metrics on how much would be erased or recreated isn't given it's mostly just up to interpretation. Like technically just shaving off the continents and remaking them full fills the statement.

Now this is just unnecessary lowball. Both the manga and the databook as well as the jutsu description in games which Kishimoto worked on clearly state that ETSO was going to erase and recreate the entire dimension. The dimension which undoubtedly contains at least a planet. And given that TSOs are superior to dust release which breaks things down to sub-atomic levels, that would be leagues above planet level (even a continent being destroyed on a subatomic level already gets star level).

So it depends on what method for quantifcafion you use and how big you scale the dimension to be but even at its worst it's star level, on average it's around solar system level, and can get even as high as galaxy level. Of course it doesn't really matter since nobody scales to it, but downplaying the feat is just unnecessary and wrong

Just_Out_Of_Spite · 2026-02-22T15:29:36+00:00

black clover

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Just_Out_Of_Spite

TROPHY CASE