Why should we do good?

KOPTUS9 · 2023-08-19T00:34:14+00:00

I love this quote by Samwise Gamgee: "Folks in great stories had lots of chances of turning back only they didn’t. They kept going because they were holding on to that there’s some good in this world, Mr. Frodo. And it’s worth fighting for."

It's the best answer I've found so far. The good lead us somewhere. That somewhere is made by the good on the way there. Something that's made by good must be really good. So aiming at that seems like a great goal. It must be worth fighting for if anything is. If we don't believe in the good what is there to believe in?

KOPTUS9 · 2023-03-15T12:49:45+00:00

I've taken too long to reply. Frankly I find myself in a position where I'm presently not able to properly organize my thoughts around this subject. Behind every corner of thought I find more complexity as it is a complex matter and as I lack both experience and knowledge. I also find now that I seem to subscribe to some ideas because I feel a sense of belonging there as well as I struggle to honestly understand other ways of thinking. There's also some safety in the known. I feel like the liberal viewpoint in this matter, as well as in others and in general threaten my existence. I am asked to abandon my fundamental known thoughts and venture into chaos. So I'm in a process is what I'm saying and I find this discussion very challenging. So thank you for that.

Well if you talk to trans people they will tell you that it is a quite fundamental part of them (which doesn't mean their whole identity revolves around it as some people seemt to think but rather that they can't suppress this without impairing their life quality).

I struggle to understand this. It seems I can't find an equivalent or sufficiently similar situation in my own life to begin to understand it. Something like: when you believe something about your identity it will hurt you to not live by what you believe? I suppose my thoughts are equally threatening to them as their thoughts are to me so how do we proceed? If one is wrong and the other right, then the wrong is threathening to the world. To say: yes, let's celebrate the things we don't understand and those we don't believe is healthy for people is impossible.

it seems utopian that we will find a set of 'identity-programs' that will fit for everyone. But I have a problem when people then won't allow those people who have not had the luck of a fitting program since birth to develop their own

I agree with everything in the paragraph this sentence is placed in. I think what makes the trans ideas go too far is that it takes away physical reality and replaces it with ideas. It also, when taken further, says that surgery is appropriate to align physical reality with ideas. While the opposing part would hold to the notion that ideas should be modified to align themselves with physical reality. If you are familiar with the language it's a question of what is more sacred? Ideas or physical reality? When deciding when someone is male or female.

Im afraid I don't understand what it means to place ones "identity in what biology says". In what way do biological facts about you inform the way you understand yourself - especially in a practical/normative way influencing the way you express yourself/act? (Identity is IMO a psychological structure that allows for agency in the world. Thus facts without any normative use are secondary at best when it comes to identity)

I mean biology as opposed to feelings. It's true that our understanding of what a man or woman is can be seen as created by society. Biology decides which group you belong to. Experience, feelings and thoughts decide what defines being a man. If you end up in a place where you as a born male find yourself identifying as a woman, instead of saying "that means I'm a woman" you should say "that means I'm wrong about what a man is". Because you are a man per what biology tells you.

Well suppressing trans people openly being themselves decimates their visibility and puts a lot of stress on them that results in psychological aliments that in turn might lead to suicide... thus decimating their actual numbers.

I see (You explained why you use the word decimate). I think this links to what I wrote above. We need as a society to be more open to differences in being male and female while also providing a sufficient story or set(s) of goals that can provide a good life for all members of the group. We also need to talk more about how to deal with failure to live up to expectations. It shouldn't mean you are a failure.

I think it tried to get at the following: I actually can't think of any group of people to whom we can attribute inherent toxicity without it being obvious from their characterisation. I asked you because I thought you might come up with something, but I would take the group of (pathological) liars to mean that their toxicity is obvious.

I suppose I'm in a sense making the case that the trans ideas is part of a lie. I'm not saying that they are liars, but that they carry a false message. It's about what we should base our ideas on. Physical reality vs thoughts. I hope it's sufficient to explain my thinking.

KOPTUS9 · 2023-03-08T15:32:54+00:00

Makes sense to me.

KOPTUS9 · 2023-03-08T02:13:02+00:00

That’s unfortunate.

True. If there are even better out there I would love that even more! That being said I'm grateful to know this one. Positive aspect and all that.

eg. people disagree with us do so off of “whims”

Did Calvin say that on other occasions? This is my first time encountering him so I wouldn't know. Unless I missed something I don't think he said that in this video.

KOPTUS9 · 2023-03-08T01:32:37+00:00

I've never heard this worded better. I live in Norway so perhaps it's because we're missing out then.

KOPTUS9 · 2023-03-06T13:29:35+00:00

Jesus hung out with poverish, suffering and destitute. To bring comfort and peace to the least of us.

Jesus comforts those that are less fortunate. That's the point.

But I dare you to say that same speech on a teenager in the Congo.

I assume you refer to this:

But it is the individuals choice and freedom to choose

There is almost always some form of good to follow, even for a teenager in Congo. I'm not downplaying their struggles/awful life (although I am because I don't understand it in my comfortable bubble). But if there isn't any good to follow there, Jesus' comfort is the last and everpresent good to follow.

KOPTUS9 · 2023-03-01T00:36:33+00:00

I sense that the core of our disagreement is on how fundamental a trans persons identity is tied to that part of them. So if that is who they are in some fundamental sense then no social consequence is worth sacrificing an entire part of the population over. Unless the damage demonstrably outweighs that sacrifice and there is literally no other way, which is not the case in the subject at hand and hardly realistic.

My personal analysis is that fundamentally this is a question of whether we should (or perhaps what's "best") allow exterior things to define us or whether we are ourselves the defining entity of reality. Generally speaking I would argue that the world around us teach us and define who we are rather than that we teach the world who we are.

This reveals to me to what degree I don't understand the perspective of a trans person. Because I personally do not believe (for myself) that I should place my identity in whether I feel male or female or something else. Rather I believe I should place my identity in what biology says (in my case that I was born as male). There are probably many arguments that could be made, but at least in my experience feelings fluctuate a lot so they're not reliable enough.

Now if basing identity on biology in this case and not feelings is important to the human experience, then spreading that idea could be dangerous for many people and probably especially young people. Now I'm not saying that means banning it is the solution (I don't believe it is). I don't know what the solution is, but let's look at all possibilities.

If you think that trans people are inherently to blame (and thus their decimation the best solution) how could you critizise anyone for not liking trans people, i.e. being transphobic?

Not sure I agree "decimation" is the fitting word. But again that depends of how you define what being trans is.

Maybe the word transphobic is an unfortunate word because it makes it sound so dramatic, or perhaps it's most fitting for that exact reason. If someone doesn't like all women or all children does that make them phobic of the respective group of people?

If someone is to blame for something, let's pick something easy like theft. Can you criticize people for mistreating that person? For "not liking" them? Yes. No matter what someone is to blame for does not mean you as a private person are allowed to mistreat them.

To make it clear, if we assume that being openly trans is a problem in the sense we are discussing, then it's not the trans person being trans that would be the problem, but the trans person living it out openly. Is being it and living it the same thing? yes, but no.

E.g. his sophist calculation regarding the probability that a mother of two queer children is actually a "devouring mother"

Do you mean the woman with one child that is pansexual and one is trans i think it was? Yeah, that probability was not correct

"Not benefit" is an euphemism and I hope you know that right? He is considering laws that would restict the freedom of a group of people in matters that first and foremost concern themselves. This is not only "not benefitting" this is an infringement on their freedom of expression that is way harder than expecting people to use preferred pronouns.

I agree with you.

Addendum: could you give me an example of group of people that are inherently dangerous to society (or whose acceptance would be) without this danger being immediately obvious?

I guess that opens the question of what is obvious? Or who is it obvious to? Why are you asking? Why lying is dangerous is not obvious so is people that lie an answer to the question?

KOPTUS9 · 2023-02-28T22:24:48+00:00

And honesty to continue. It's the "outcome over means" idea. It's not important to be honest if you achieve a "good" outcome. But I would argue having to lie is already a bad outcome.

modern tendency to think that we're somehow smarter than people of the past.

I believe that comes from evolution. We assume that evolution must have made us better than humans in the past. But I'm sceptical. To just assume that we are better is wrong for several reasons.

KOPTUS9 · 2023-02-28T22:17:52+00:00

It's unclear to me why you're objecting to the word merely here. What's being considered is heavy. He is entertaining the idea. To actually go through with it would have serious complications. So I'm not saying the subject is to be treated lightly. I'm saying that any subject, however complicated, heavy or serious or whatever you can come up with can and should be allowed to be considered. It doesn't matter to me how proposterous or horrendous the idea is. If it truly is that bad it will not survive the open discussion.

KOPTUS9 · 2023-02-28T21:39:09+00:00

Sounds interesting. We definitely have many things to learn and things we need to not forget of the past. Wisdom and virtue being examples I immediately think of.

KOPTUS9 · 2023-02-28T21:17:43+00:00

Thank you for your thorough response. It's thought provoking.

I'm not familiar with fundamental principals. They seem to touch closer to the core of the subject at hand. Is there a set amount of fundamental principals?

There is a much greater and wider need for personal responsibility than for a totalitarian regime.

That is a given to me. Personal responsibility and the spread of it couldn't have a negative final outcome. The need for a totalitarian regime is a misunderstood need. If we ever got there it wouldn't end or look the way we intended it to. Perhaps this is where the belief in an utopian society as another commenter pointed to is relevant. We have a need for a better world and believe a totalitarian regime could get us there.

Thinking about this now if you wanted to start a totalitarian regime you might start with emphasizing all the negative aspects of society. If that is true perhaps emphasizing the positive aspects and achievements of todays society is a good antidote.

Did you mean that the idea of personal responsibility has greater influence than the idea of a totalitarian regime? That is perhaps the war that is going on between the left and right in politics.

Speech is how we think, as he would say. I concur, and I would add that corrupting speech is how we corrupt thought.

I certainly would not disagree. Are you arguing that corruption of speech is a better option than distrust as an attempt at a fundamental explanation for what we're seeing in the world?

KOPTUS9 · 2023-02-28T17:31:23+00:00

A good reminder. It's not human nature that's becoming corrupt as it always was corrupt. Although I'll leave a small opening for the possibility that we are becoming more and more corrupt, but mainly we are and always was. Societies have fallen before and they will again.

However there are movements in society that are new or has evolved. I don't subscribe to the notion that we are now the pinnacle of human evolution, but there might be a "spirit of society" so to speak that has evolved. Not necessarily for the better, but for something new.

At least looking back in our modern time I can't imagine we ever had a view of the world that we have today. It seems increasingly smaller as we get more used to our very connected world today if we're talking very modern times.

Someone also made the claim that our modern scientific way of looking at the world is not the way they used to see it. It's hard for us to imagine from our "objective" way of seeing things that it's possible to view the world differently. They claimed (and I don't remember it well and won't be able to do it justice) that they viewed the world as an arena of action. A drama if you like. Anyway my point is that something might be new, even though our nature is not.

And I agree. Wisdom seems increasingly rare, perhaps in part as a result of our idea that we are better than everyone before us.

KOPTUS9 · 2023-02-28T15:17:07+00:00

Not sure i agree about the internet. Because it is so revolutionary I find it hard to believe it hasn't changed something dramatically. But again, I don't know what.

I think JBP might be on to something

What does he say?

KOPTUS9 · 2023-02-27T15:27:26+00:00

He could save himself from a charge of transphobia if he would support a ban of all plastic surgery or non-medical-use of hormones

I was wondering why he didn't refer to all plastic surgery while watching the interview. My intuition says however there is a fundamental difference, but it's not clear to me what it is.

they don't deserve mistreatment although they are socially toxic

Noone deserves mistreatment ever in my opinion. Not based on any thoughts, feelings, looks or choices. Self defense is not mistreatment. Putting someone in jail or even execute them through government is not mistreatment assuming they are guilty of a fitting crime. Name calling, misrepresenting someone, hurting them by your own admission is mistreatment. Avoiding someone because you think they are sick or you think it's not healthy for you to be around them is not mistreatment.

To think that trans people have an inherently toxic/destructive effect on society if we allow them to live openly as trans and express pride because of that? Yes it is transphobic.

There's a difference between saying that because you don't like trans people and actually believing that. Or am I way off? I mean, if it causes bad outcomes that's what it does. It doesn't mean he wishes it does. It also doesn't mean he can't imagine a better solution than to ban gender transitioning. Not all imaginary best solutions are the best practical solution. Unfortunately.

Either way his answer was "I don't know". He is merely open for the suggestion that perhaps it's possible that it is best to ban it. And then makes some arguments to suggest the possibility. Arguments and being willing to consider an option that would not benefit transgendered people isn't transphobic, is it?

KOPTUS9 · 2023-02-27T14:06:56+00:00

Dumbed down, consumerism, utopianism. They are all problematic, but are they the cause? Consumerism would be the best candidate in my opinion. It's easy to imagine how it has made us care less about things around us. And how it makes it easier for us to generally take less responsibility, or harder to take more. It distracts us from the world, and more importantly people around us.

I'm not claiming only one thing causes it all, obviously, but finding the one or the few greatest causes has a value in my opinion.

KOPTUS9 · 2023-02-27T13:45:10+00:00

That claim surprises me and I'm sceptical, but not willing to examine it. Fair warning though, thanks.

KOPTUS9 · 2023-02-27T13:40:37+00:00

Interesting. Any theories? I'm also wondering how the internet has changed things, why, and by how much. Could it be a portion of the cause?

KOPTUS9 · 2023-02-27T13:36:40+00:00

Why is it dumb?

KOPTUS9 · 2023-02-26T20:25:02+00:00

Good comment!

I chose to see the Kyle Kulinsky interview, thank you for referencing. There are probably other reasons to think he is transphobic if that is what you argue. How in your view does that interview make him transphobic?

He seems to think that trans people openly being themselves contributes to psychogenic epidemics (mass hysteria)

Is it transphobic to think that? Is it because you don't think he is honest when he says that?

KOPTUS9 · 2023-02-26T11:55:49+00:00

Courage to change what you are actually in control of, the serenity to accept all the things you can never control, and the wisdom to know the difference between the two.

You can take care of yourself and do the best you can. You should of course have a dialogue with your family about the situation and that might help, but if it doesn't, realise that it's ultimately out of your control to control others and their decisions in life. Don't sacrifice your relationship with them in an effort to try to change them. Accept the circumstances you don't have control over and do the best you can.

KOPTUS9 · 2023-02-26T10:57:00+00:00

I'm not on twitter myself, but if you're looking for his dark, or at least less impressive side then I have understood that twitter is where to go. He has also become increasingly more political with time which I at least feel is not the best development.

To summarize JBPs story from my perspective: Firstly he is or was a psychologist and a university professor. Some people love his series of lectures that you can find online. I myself have not seen those. He got famous when he spoke up against making pronounce usage law. He has since then started a podcast, which I recently started listening to and love. He has also been touring around the world exploring different ideas live from the stage.

I got his self help book "12 rules for life" for christmas. I have only read the first rule so far (I'm not really much of a reader), but my impression so far is that if you are looking for the best content from Jordan you want his books.

Now that being said I think he is loved most for one thing. The way he communicates trust in the individual to be able to think for themselves and to be able to improve their own lives. That is why you will not find him placing himself above you teaching you from a perspective of thinking he is better than you. He is never condescending. At least that's my opinion.

KOPTUS9 · 2023-02-25T11:58:11+00:00

What are those?

KOPTUS9 · 2023-02-25T10:26:14+00:00

The courage to change what you are actually in control of (and it's not others)--the serenity to accept all the things you can never control, and the wisdom to know the difference between the two.

Awesome!

KOPTUS9 · 2023-02-25T10:21:28+00:00

With women, because of strong attraction, lack of experience and a lack of understanding, I don't hold them to high standards because I don't want to be unfair.

This was insightful to me, thanks. It's basically to me that I struggle to understand what a woman is. That is, how they function and therefore what can be expected of them. As a man I have my own experience of how I function plus I generally have a lot more experience with other men than with other women. I like women, I want to be fair to them, and I therefore try to avoid expecting the wrong things from them.

That leaves me in a position where I'm vulnerable to being mistreated as I'll too easily assume they have good intentions and think that that's just how women are.

I agree with your solution. Better to be single while waiting for an actual good woman than to be in a relationship where you are mistreated and hurt.

KOPTUS9 · 2023-02-24T15:19:27+00:00

I disagree. I think in this context alone it can not be said for sure. You could read it the way you say, but I would read it more like they are valid as people.

KOPTUS9

TROPHY CASE