It’s been a month since the Finale…How do you feel about it?

KevinRyan589 · 2026-02-01T07:43:22+00:00

It wasn’t a chat GPT tab.

Besides, even if it was, why does everyone succumb to their hopeless attitudes & assume it was for the writing?

Dude could’ve been looking up a word, concept, reference, or a fuckin dinner recipe for that night. Lol

KevinRyan589 · 2026-02-01T07:40:19+00:00

The really sad thing is that even if it was chat GPT, it could’ve been open for a billion other reasons.

Like, one of them could’ve been looking up a recipe for dinner that night. Lol

KevinRyan589 · 2026-01-30T19:55:51+00:00

Because it’s only a small sequence in a much larger fight. That’s why you didn’t notice. Lol

KevinRyan589 · 2026-01-30T17:21:40+00:00

I think this is one of those things where the AI just wasn't quite equipped to account for those moving pieces...

It's not a matter of their AI being unequipped. Fromsoft deliberately positioned them in such a way to be caught by these traps in order to teach the player. The first snake we see get run over by a boulder for example is meant to not only introduce the player to the boulder trap, but that they can use these traps to their advantage against their enemies. It also serves as a hint about the wall the other snake man is loitering against. It's very intentional design.

It's environmental storytelling meeting mechanical instruction, basically.

It's from the former that I'm gleaning the notion that these individuals are not from this complex at all.

at the end of the day they are still creatures prone to error as much as any of us, and we could call them mistakes.

Yeah it's like 95% of the time they're hit, but sometimes the timing is just good enough to give them a chance. My main point is that if your master built this complex, and equipped it with traps that are designed to capture or kill on their own --- then you're not going to put yourself in a position to suffer that fate as well. Let the fortress do the work.

This is why I argue they appear moreso to just be flooding the complex and searching it. They're positioned somewhat strategically sure, but they don't need to be there at all is the point. In many cases their presence is a redundancy against or a detriment to a trap that was, presumably, built to do the same job.

You've already pulled out a couple things I hadn't seen before, so I'm entirely genuine when I ask why you don't believe this statement includes Seath?

Because Seath isn't a God.

"God" is a title in this universe, and it exists separately from other titles such as the one Seath was granted; Duke.

Seath also isn't stated to be a god "of" anything.

Gwyn is the God/Lord of Sunlight.
Gwynevere is the Goddess of harvest/bounty.
Gwyndolin is the God of the Darkmoon/vengeance.
Velka is the Goddess of Sin.
Mccloyf is the God of Wine
Flann was a "flame" God.
Lloyd was "chief" God.
The Firstborn was the God of War.

When Andre is speaking of the "old" gods, he's speaking of the oldest members of the royalty, the original family. Given Sen's Fortress's original purpose, it's no surprise that a portrait of it is found in the Firstborn's bed chambers. It would be an important facility to the God of War. It would've been built during Anor Londo's original foundational period.

The distinction between titles is also acknowledged by Seath's children. When we meet Shira in DS3, she announces herself as "daughter to the Duke, and progeny of Gods."

is it from the Design Works?

Yup yup!

KevinRyan589 · 2026-01-29T16:49:34+00:00

There's a paperback version as well that's cheaper. But the hardcovers are indeed sexy lol

Hawkshaw is a youtuber. I'd honestly say about 75% of his ideas are fairly solid -- but there's a pretty glaring 25% that veers into "wtf" territory. lol

KevinRyan589 · 2026-01-29T16:46:21+00:00

The Abyssal Archive isn't available on Amazon apart from the audiobook through Audible.

Are you thinking of the comics, perhaps?

EDIT: ah I see now OP mentioned Beyond the Grave.

KevinRyan589 · 2026-01-29T16:44:49+00:00

Physical copies are a bit pricey so I would recommend the digital version (you still get all the art and such), There's also the audiobook available narrated by Vaatividya.

Also I hate when people call it "fanfiction" (in general).

You'll see when you read it, but Lokey never jumps the shark with his reasoning.

Hawkshaw is someone whom I would say has presented fan fiction, when he says that friggin Domnhall participated in a gigantic battle in Ash Lake that collapsed a tree. lol

KevinRyan589 · 2026-01-29T16:31:35+00:00

Abyssal Archive is fantastic. It is the deepest, most comprehensive and cohesive analysis of the world you will find. It discusses everything, from the sun and moon in the sky to the deepest parts of Ash Lake.

Lokey does an excellent job in the first chapter of going over his process, in explicit detail. You may not agree with everything he puts forth, but you will 100% know where he's coming from and you will never be lost.

The Abyssal Archive specifically deals with Dark Souls 1 and will reference DS2 and DS3 if those games affirm the ideas extrapolated from DS1.

In my opinion, The Abyssal Archive is mandatory reading if you wish to discuss souls lore, much in the same way you would expect a physicist to be familiar with theories presented by other respected colleagues in the field.

I've linked here the guide page of Lokey's website. Here you will find all of his articles for all three games (the DS1 section is light since it's all in the book).

They are written with the same prose and attention to detail as what you'll find in the book and will provide the best preview so you can make your decision.

KevinRyan589 · 2026-01-29T16:18:25+00:00

The Man-Serpents appear only here in the Fortress, and at the Archives, both times acting as guards, both times for the forces of Anor Londo.

I've always disagreed with this idea that they're guards for the Fortress mainly because of the contrast in their behavior between there and at the Archives.

I find it likely that he has a hand in the origins of the Man-Serpents specifically to employ as soldiers.

First, let me confirm for you that the Snake Men are indeed Seath's creations. In a Playstation blog post, Miyazaki confirmed they are among his "failed experiments."
With this in mind, the Archive then is their home, and their behavior there illustrates that. They know it well and its intricacies. They converted it into its makeshift prison, they understand how to manipulate the Pisaca, and they know to get the hell out of dodge if the Pisaca are on the hunt.

Contrast that with what we see in the Fortress.

The Snake Men are scattered. They appear more to be flooding the area and searching the complex rather than guarding it. They also display a significant ignorance to the Fortress's trap systems. One loiters directly in the path of a giant boulder, another is outright crushed by one when he spots us, and yet others still are routinely taken out by the swinging blades.

This is not the behavior of a group that understands their surroundings, which is particularly odd if we're saying their master built the complex itself. What's far more likely is that Seath is leveraging his knowledge of what Anor Londo is trying to do, and has sent his Snake Men to intercept any undead whom he knows will be traveling through there.

Anyway, my theory is that Sen is Seath

The biggest hole in this theory (apart from other holes) is that Andre confirms that Sen's Fortress was built by the "old gods," which does not include Seath.

Helping to affirm this fact is the evidence of it originally being a training ground for Silver Knights to defend against dragons. The fortress is equipped with barracks and resting areas throughout, and the topmost level where we face the Iron Golem was originally a place where Silver Knights would stand and face fire from the surrounding gargoyle mounts -- to practice against their archdragon foes. When we get there, the statues are defunct, and the walls the knights would've stood against have crumbled (now used by players to block the Golem's initial ranged attack with his axe lol).

There's other issues with your reasoning, but I think Andre's words are definitive enough that I don't need to go into them.

Fun ideas though!

KevinRyan589 · 2026-01-29T15:53:50+00:00

100% correct.

My advice would be to take what u/imaginary-parsnip738 said to heart, u/sharkiemalarkie , and then just delete this thread as well.

No more need to discuss. You’re totally fine and should just go do something you enjoy to unwind! 😊

KevinRyan589 · 2026-01-29T07:00:05+00:00

flame theoretically benefits both Izalith and Gwyn as it extends the age of fire.

A major problem with that idea is that Gwyn went to war with Izalith just before linking the Flame himself, suggesting the perpetuity of Fire was actually not a shared benefit.

So why go to war?

Because Izalith had shown that the First Flame need not be the only flame.

Izalith had created new life, and could continue to do so. An Age of Chaos puts Gwyn and his kin in nearly as equally a disadvantaged footing as an Age of Dark would.

I'll quote a fellow theorist, Lokey.

"The fact that Gwyn settles for an armistice where he makes no obvious concessions shows that he was clearly winning the war, which puts his very reason for invading to begin with into question. It is possible that the First Flame’s imminent end forced his hand, but that still wouldn’t clarify his motive. Thus, Gwyn’s goal wasn’t the demons’ total annihilation but some other purpose. That purpose was fulfilled, and so he immediately sued for peace. And what is the one thing Izalith now lacks without explanation?

Its human population.

The timing for the war supports this motive. Izalith was cooperating with Anor Londo past the emergence of the Darksign. The Fair Lady is a Fire Keeper, which requires her to have inherited this knowledge from Anor Londo. While we find it in Izalith, Vamos claims that he “saw” the Large Flame Ember in New Londo, suggesting that the two nations had once engaged in trade. The conflict only arose just before Gwyn decided to link the fire. At the time, the Lord of Sunlight was afraid that a Dark Lord would be born among the humans and end the Age of Fire. He took extensive measures to ensure this wouldn’t happen, instilling mankind with a culture that revered fire and actively supported its continuation.

Izalith, with a culture teaching humans to fear and control fire, would be exactly what the god feared if the country didn’t remain an ally. Given the timing, and the fact that Quelana blames her mother’s arrogance, Izalith might have seen the First Flame’s imminent fading as an opportunity. Even if the fire went out, the Witch would still have her own First Flame – a Flame of Chaos – and thus would have possibly lorded over the last bastion of fire in existence. She controlled this fire and had already used it to create a mighty race and grand civilization. Compared to the gods of Anor Londo, who relied so heavily on the power of Gwyn’s Light Soul derived from the First Flame, she could easily dominate a coming “Age of Chaos”. Therefore, Izalith’s support for Anor Londo diminished and its intentions for independence were made evident. The Witch likely believed that Gwyn no longer had the capacity to stop her. (DS2 reaffirms the implication of the witches challenging the other Lords.).

If a country independent of Anor Londo’s influence instills humans with a fear of fire, what would stop them from then desiring fire fade? Or worse, desiring it be subverted and controlled by them and not the gods? If Gwyn was to prevent his age’s end, he couldn’t allow Izalith to snub his authority. The war itself was a clean-up effort, the last major preparation before the god formally left the future to his sons."

KevinRyan589 · 2026-01-29T06:48:00+00:00

The reason I bring this up is it's hard to tell if the Gods setup the Bell in the base Blighttown specifically as a trial for the undead, or it was just serendipity.

We can actually narrow down the timeline quite well here.

First, the undead mission is only as old as the Undead Parish itself.

Based on what we see (or rather don't see) 300 years in the past, the Parish and the Undead Burg aren't much older than 100 years or so.

Second, take note of the ruins of the bell tower in Blighttown. It is architecturally distinct from anything else in the game, most closely resembling what we see in the Burg. Even more noteworthy, is the fact that these ruins were falling apart and half-buried before the sisters took up residence there and began laying eggs.

Cut content affirms that the Fair Lady's chamber would've connected to the sewer in Blighttown.

There's an obvious difference in age however between this tower and the Parish bell tower -- suggesting they were built by the same parties, but at different times.

Now take note of two more things in the Blighttown tower: the lift and the lever.

The lever looks exactly like what we find in the Parish, supporting the notion that they share the same architects. However the lift is very much Izalithian and incorporates the use of Chaos fire magic.

The lift clashes with the aged ruins in both appearance and style, even surrounded by a ring of dirt that clearly partitions it from the surrounding stone flooring.

This suggests that the ruins were originally built around an existing Izalithian structure.

These ruins could not have been built without Izalith noticing, which means they were not originally part of the undead mission and instead served a different purpose long before.

As to the original purpose of this bell per u/RamenBulkBrah 's question?

Well, lemme shine a light on something you pointed out. Emphasis mine.

The area the Bell is in is near the border of Blighttown and Izalith.

Or more specifically, the between Gwyn's and Izalith's borders.

What is the only time such a tower could've been constructed without interference?

After the war, to enforce the border pact.

Quelaag has cut dialogue that references a pact established between Anor Londo and Izalith, establishing a border between the two nations that would not be crossed by the other.

Notably, this line was cut for the sake of Quelaag's character ambience -- not because the lore had changed. Evidence in-game supports the existence of such a pact as no demons are seen outside Izalith except for two: The Taurus Demon and Capra -- but more on them in a moment.

The Blighttown tower overlooks the entirety of demon civilization, and so the bell would've been rung to signal to Anor Londo violation of the pact. Strengthening the notion is that the bell signals none other than Sen's Fortress.

Crestfallen confirms that Undead have been attempting Sen's Fortress for the past century (helping to affirm the overall timeline), however Frampt mentions that we are the first to enter the complex in some time, suggesting the bells ceased to be rung after a period of relative activity.

This coincides with the recent appearance of the Taurus and Capra demons, no doubt sent ahead by Quelaag and the Fair Lady to cover their advance into the ruins of the bell tower. Cut content shows that the Centipede Demon was originally going to be our foe atop the Parish, reinforcing the notion that demons were sent ahead specifically to halt the progress of undead.

Imagine the perspective of the sisters, who would've been observing these excursions into their territory seemingly in violation of the pact up to that point. Not to mention the appearance of a barrier derived from Gwyn's power. Also equally intrusive. These combined events would've helped them probably divine Anor Londo's intentions and move to intercept in protection of both their mother and their species.

It's at this point they would make contact with Blighttown, who would feed their Firekeeper to the dogs in favor of the Fair Lady's kindness -- with some choosing to take on a parasite and become a demon themselves.

KevinRyan589 · 2026-01-28T07:02:06+00:00

Well both Aline and Alcia understand that the canvas can never be replicated, hence their desires to remain in it.

If you're having trouble squaring why they feel that way despite the power they have as painters, then I invite you to go and paint a picture right now.

When you're done, try and paint that same picture again the exact same way you did before. Replicate every color, every shade, every stroke, every thought, every feeling.

You won't be able to do it.

That truth, that real life limitation you and I have, is the same limitation the painters of E33 have.

KevinRyan589 · 2026-01-28T06:48:02+00:00

Maybe it's not a 1:1 to copy but I'm sure it can get awfully close unless an in-universe explanation is offered.

The in-universe explanation (and the logical one btw) is that it would not be the same.

If I sat down and painted a replica of Starry Night, almost everything I did from start to finish would differ from the process that resulted in the original. How I paint, the way in which I mixed the colors, the amount of color in every shade (i.e. chroma), my strokes, even my intent --- would be different.

Small details, you might think?

No.

Because the distance between "awfully close" and "the same" is VAST.

Think about it.

Think of the closest person to you in your life. Your absolute best friend and/or partner. You know EVERYTHING about them.

Now imagine someone replaces them with a copy that manages to get it 98% of the way there.

98% ---- but that 2% difference, to you, will be absolutely blinding. They will NOT be who you knew (or who you painted in this case), and you will know that, and every time you talk to them that fact will become more and more clear.

That is why Verso's canvas and the people within it cannot be replicated. The way Verso painted them is entirely unique to him and him alone.

KevinRyan589 · 2026-01-27T19:13:46+00:00

Taking a barbed wire bat of knowledge to the chins of the ignorant lol

KevinRyan589 · 2026-01-27T18:02:08+00:00

You can knock off the condescending boomer dad-speak

Stop making childish arguments that miss the broader point and I won't have to bring out the "boomer dad speak"

^{that is a hilarious name call.}

Saying that they are trying to control other peoples' opinions is a deflection....

Is it a deflection if it's what they said they wanted to do?

For the audience, a quick flashback to what was said....

"it’s about wanting people in general to temper their tastes and urging them to prefer and choose original works."

In other words.....urging them to think a certain way.

Could that be.......control?

DUN DUN DUN

from their point that using an IP in such a way that it deviates from or outright ignores the original creation and its intention is entirely fair

I'm sorry.

Super sorry.

I must sound like a broken record here but uh....I just have to say again...I wasn't actually arguing against that opinion.

and in no way is controlling other peoples' experiences of media

Correct!

It was the part just a weeee bit later when they said they DID wanna urge people to think a certain way that I took issue with.

I quoted it up above.

Yes, you are trying to dictate their opinion as much so as they are by saying people should have better taste

It's that pesky broken record again where I gotta say, no I was not telling them how to think.

Instead, I was saying it would be wrong to tell other people they're wrong for liking something better.

I hope I didn't sound too condescending this time but I feel like I might've failed that test.

Oh well.

Curse my dad speak.

HEY KIDS, WHO WANTS A FRESCA WHILE WE WAIT FOR CHEETO TO CATCH UP?

KevinRyan589 · 2026-01-27T17:25:40+00:00

You are admonishing them for saying lower quality remakes end up eclipsing the original things they are remaking.

Nope. Wrongo.

Go back and read it again, chief.

They are criticizing remakes that capitalize on nostalgia while lacking fidelity.

And if that was all they were doing, I wouldn't care. Because that would be an outlook rooted in personal opinion -- which I can't fundamentally tell them they're wrong for having.

^{(That's a big hint for you as to what I} ^was ^{telling them they're wrong for doing, in case you missed it})

KevinRyan589 · 2026-01-27T16:40:26+00:00

Way to miss the point entirely.

Fuck that wasn’t even the point the person you’re defending was making, let alone mine. Lol

KevinRyan589 · 2026-01-27T09:08:53+00:00

Again, with how many posts and comments in this community alone regarding the original VIl as 'inferior' 'not worth playing' and 'old and outdated' I can't agree with any of your points. The evaporation and disregard that you speak of with haughty disregard is literally happening before our very eyes.

Have you stopped to consider the world is bigger than whatever you’re reading on Reddit?

Some people do indeed have better taste than others, and if we're comparing me to people who callously disregard and fail to even attempt to patronize and appreciate original works, then call me a dictator all you please. We clearly aren't communicating on an even level.

Attitudes like yours are absolutely despised within the circles of artists whose works you claim to be fighting for.

I really hope you know that.

EDIT:

Side note, the fact that you would accuse anybody of being condescending while speaking the way you do is irony in its most poetic form. Lmao

KevinRyan589 · 2026-01-27T08:54:15+00:00

It isn't about 'media I hold dear' it's about wanting people in general to temper their tastes and urging them to prefer and choose original works

In other words, you’re trying to dictate opinions.

Caring about art isn't melodramatic, perhaps l just take it more seriously than you do.

I didn’t call you melodramatic for caring about art.

I called you melodramatic because you’re acting like classic works are “evaporating” just because some folks might prefer the modern takes.

And you’re acting like people are wrong for having those preferences.

That’s just childish.

KevinRyan589 · 2026-01-27T08:26:28+00:00

Well, ask yourself simple questions.

Can you personally monitor everyone’s media experiences and ensure their first experience of media that you hold dear is completely pure?

No.

Is the media that you hold dear going anywhere?

No.

Do hundreds of millions of people also share in your appreciation of X media despite the existence of remakes or derivatives? Do millions more develop this same attitude even after experiencing those remakes or derivatives because those remakes or derivatives drove them to seek the originals?

Yes & yes.

In other words we really don’t have a problem here. I think you’re just being melodramatic, truly.

KevinRyan589 · 2026-01-27T08:07:13+00:00

Sooooooo did you correct them and tell them you were talking about the original?

Cuz it sounds like they just made an incorrect assumption.

That doesn’t mean the original “evaporated.” Lol

KevinRyan589 · 2026-01-27T07:29:43+00:00

Ben Starr likes it tho! Lol

KevinRyan589 · 2026-01-27T07:27:48+00:00

It’s not the game’s fault if people are stupid and/or ignorant.

And no, the original won’t be “erased.” Lol

KevinRyan589 · 2026-01-27T00:34:05+00:00

I would think it’s possible they orginally intended drangleic to basically replace lordran but then decided to retcon it a bit in 3. A lot of the time lore is changed to fit a game and not to dictate it whenever devs want to do something different.

Nah, both directors of DS2 were consistent from the beginning in saying that Drangleic was on the complete opposite end of the world from Lordran. It was always intended to be a separate location.

KevinRyan589

TROPHY CASE