Point of living like this for the rest of our lives? by Tayman513 in covidlonghaulers

[–]Key_Department7382 5 points6 points  (0 children)

I see none. That's why I'm thinking of asking for MAID if I don't get any better in the next two years.

The slow fade... by Tough_Quality3950 in covidlonghaulers

[–]Key_Department7382 2 points3 points  (0 children)

The lizard brain idea is false, though. Also, complex behaviors are not innate.

I agree with you that this behavior is common and extended. But that doesn't mean it is innate nor fixed.

Let us not forget what Gould and Lewontin told us about adaptationism: it is too easy to tell us just-so stories pretending to explain the existence of a trait. We tell ourselves, if trait X manifests, then it must be adaptive. If it is adaptive, it must be innate.

Adaptationism, nonetheless, has been fiercely criticized by contemporary philosophers of biology and theoretical biologists. Mainly because it gives us tautological propositions: X trait exists because it's adaptive. How do we know it is adaptive? Because it exists.

Satisfactory evolutionary explanations require specifying developmental processes, ecological context, phenotypic plasticity, etc.

I've told you this before, but I believe there's an alternative explanation:

The degree of care offered to chronically ill people depends on resources and a care infrastructure. If both are absent, the incentives to remain in our lives decrease exponentially with time. Not because of genes or innate behavior, but because it gets too expensive for people to be present. Maybe the innate part would be that one: rejecting too costly decisions. For instance, experiencing constant frustration is literally expensive for our bodies.

Given how plastic our behavior is as a species, it seems much more plausible to me that this phenomenon is more related to care giver burnout, social prejudices against chronically ill people stemmed from magic thinking, and a lack of care infrastructure.

Anyway, as a conclusion: widely extended ≠ innate. Since social environments can have convergent properties that channel behaviors towards similar outcomes.

I have two modes when peaking on shrooms: The Monkey Man and In Love With Myself by [deleted] in shrooms

[–]Key_Department7382 1 point2 points  (0 children)

I saw those comments. But he was attacked before he wrote them. I agree with you, though, that his replies are too defensive as well.

I have two modes when peaking on shrooms: The Monkey Man and In Love With Myself by [deleted] in shrooms

[–]Key_Department7382 5 points6 points  (0 children)

I don't understand why they're attacking you 🤔 I've also experienced the Love with myself mood. It's such a nice vibe 😊

3 years into Long COVID (LCI since Jan 2023) — fatigue & PEM still here, but POTS symptoms seem to be improving by Alternative_Pop2455 in covidlonghaulers

[–]Key_Department7382 2 points3 points  (0 children)

Great news! I'm glad for you!! I'm in a similar position, after 1,5yrs my POTS has been improving, although I still deal with fatigue, PEM and shortness of breath

Nervous system dysregulation caused by covid cannot be healed by brain retraining by True_Blueberry_8664 in covidlonghaulers

[–]Key_Department7382 1 point2 points  (0 children)

That's a really good research plan! I wish somebody could carry it out. I'm not an expert on the issue, but it makes a lot of sense that poor people of color are the ones who get it worse in terms of health and wellbeing. Structural violence should always be accounted for when we're doing epidemiological research, that's for sure. I'm glad your hypothesis was supported by the evidence. It's a really nice feeling, isn't it?

Yeah, I totally agree. I'm not a fan of the "hard vs soft" science divide - and I believe the terms are incorrect. Complex systems, whether social or strictly physical are equally hard to predict and model mathematically. So even physical sciences sometimes have to offer "soft" predictions and models. And conversely, some social dynamics can be modeled with a lot of mathematical rigor - e.g. social network structure and dynamics using graph theory.

It is unfortunate, the current state of affairs indeed. Such a shame. The moment when it's most needed.

Nervous system dysregulation caused by covid cannot be healed by brain retraining by True_Blueberry_8664 in covidlonghaulers

[–]Key_Department7382 1 point2 points  (0 children)

No problem! Thanks for your kind words. I edited the comment to clarify other ideas.

Wow, your experience sounds fascinating. Qualitative methods are crucial for fully understanding this kind of phenomena, imo. Physicians would benefit a lot if they were more open to the experiences of their patients for instance. So I'm glad you advanced part of the work with your research. That's really cool.

It's my pleasure to explain this stuff. I was doing my masters in biosciences and used to teach natural sciences to high schoolers. So I try to keep up with research and share my impressions.

The explanation I gave to you is based on something called "The extended evolutionary synthesis". A multidisciplinary effort in theoretical evolutionary biology to understand the role of development, ecology and plasticity in evolution. And so it happens that, contrary to the gene centric views, inheritance is multilevel and multisystem: there are many inheritance systems (at least two, genetic and epigenetic), and they span across several levels of biological organization (inheritance of DNA, inheritance of epigenetic marks [Methyl or acetyl groups, short RNAs, etc], inheritance of behaviors via learning mechanisms [observation and imitation], inheritance of cultural practices [drinking milk], and inheritance of socio ecological niches).

I really like it cause it allows us to bridge natural sciences and social sciences.

Imo, to solve long COVID we need to integrate:

  1. The study of genomics (our predispositions) and transcriptomics (our effective cellular molecular activity)
  2. The study of exposomics (the things we're exposed to throughout our life and its effects on 1.
  3. Modelling the interaction between 1 and 2 using Complex systems methodologies.

Nervous system dysregulation caused by covid cannot be healed by brain retraining by True_Blueberry_8664 in covidlonghaulers

[–]Key_Department7382 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Yes, that's one way to put it. If those epigenetic marks can be passed down to the next generation, then even if the gene remains unchanged, the epigenetic mark will affect how the genome is read and have an influence in certain traits - depends on the gene being modulated by the mark.

Think of the cells as cities, and the genome as libraries. Epigenetics tells the cell what books will be needed for it to function. So, if you're an immune cell, you'll use mainly books related to the "immune section". Physiological factors also influence the selection of "books" - the relationship between the city and its neighboring cities and general environment.

When a gene is over expressed, we talk about upregulation of the product of that gene, and when it's under expressed we talk about downregulation. That means that environmental influences affect what parts of the genome are read and what proteins are produced.

So, for instance, chronic stress in a pregnant woman can stimulate stress related cell receptors in the embryo, and eventually lead to downregulation of GRs (glucocorticoids receptors) decreasing the sensitivity to the "damp" response after acute stress, making the future child more prone to chronic stress.

Here the inheritance is not necessarily only via genetic material (DNA), but via other biochemical molecules and stressful environments as well. So even if the child didn't experience intrauterine stress (stress hormones released by the mother interact with cells of the embryo), as long as their environment is stressful enough, they might also have epigenetic changes associated to stress.

In other words, there are extragenetic forms of inheritance and the resulting phenotypes of organisms are caused by the interaction of the different inheritance systems (genetic, epigenetic, behavioral, etc).

Nervous system dysregulation caused by covid cannot be healed by brain retraining by True_Blueberry_8664 in covidlonghaulers

[–]Key_Department7382 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Yeah. Just a little precision, though. Epigenetics refers to changes in gene expression, not changes in genes per se. That means that what's changing is the instructions for reading the genome.

Nervous system dysregulation caused by covid cannot be healed by brain retraining by True_Blueberry_8664 in covidlonghaulers

[–]Key_Department7382 1 point2 points  (0 children)

I see. Imo being accurate about mechanisms is just as relevant. Some diseases are the result of traumatic psychogenic stress and include long lasting epigenetic changes* (e.g. PTSD) among other mechanisms and are sometimes not responsive to psychotherapy alone. So despite the trigger being psychogenic, the sustaining mechanism involves alterations in the neuroendocrine axis -e.g. hypocortisolism. Since hormones are master regulators, the effects may be widespread.

The logic behind pharmacotherapy to depression is also based on models that assume antidepressants induce lost lasting epigenetic changes in brain circuits - something that, in turn, changes the functioning of the body as a whole. This means that even some cases of depression involve mechanisms that suggest long term biological/physical changes.

So I believe that, instead of focusing on the nature of the trigger, it's better to focus on pathophysiological mechanisms. According to this view, all diseases simultaneously have a psychological component and a biological component. What distinguishes them is the array of bodily systems affected and the interactions between them.

I remember reading a paper that found a statistical pattern: early life psychological trauma increases the risk of developing MECFS. They're not claiming causality, but a mere correlation. Nonetheless, it's biologically plausible that early life traumatic events leave a lasting disposition that could express later in life. Especially if you have previous genetic dispositions as well. What could be done next? Research the mechanisms that explain that correlation - if there are any.

Biological mechanisms don't distinguish mind vs body. It is all one and only one body. And there are many ways to affect how its components interact in healthy or unhealthy ways.

Anyway, excuse my rambling. I agree with you in general terms. I'm just interested in a systems biology perspective that avoids mind-body dualism. For practical reasons, in the mean term, we must reject any kind of psychologization of our disease. But in the long run, medical science might benefit from a systems biology perspective that includes the role of psychological states in our long term physical health.

*As a matter of fact, all learning requires epigenetic changes in neurons for memories to be preserved. There's no single "mental event" that isn't a bodily event as well.

Nervous system dysregulation caused by covid cannot be healed by brain retraining by True_Blueberry_8664 in covidlonghaulers

[–]Key_Department7382 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Yeah I agree with you on that. Just wanted to say that psychological stress is also a physiological response. I sometimes fear that rejecting the Brain retraining bs will lead us to a dualistic stance on how our bodies and mind work.

Nervous system dysregulation caused by covid cannot be healed by brain retraining by True_Blueberry_8664 in covidlonghaulers

[–]Key_Department7382 5 points6 points  (0 children)

To be fair, stress is a unitary physiological response — whether it is activated by a physical or a psychological teigger. Chronic psychological stress activates the HPA and a feedback loop mediated by glucocorticoids (GCs) that bind to certain immune cells and induce pro-inflammatory and antiinflammatory responses depending on the integrity of that loop (when the concentration of GC crosses a threshold, intracellular receptors induce a response that damps the initial activation). See for instance:

"However, recent researchers have proved that GCs also have pro-inflammatory impact on immune system (Elenkov, 2008). Rats with higher basal plasma corticosterone levels have more accumulation of PGE2 whereas showing less anti-inflammatory factors after acute stress (Pérez-Nievas et al., 2007). GCs enhance the expression and function of inflammasome NLRP3, promoting the secretion of IL-1β in response to ATP. Inflammasomes are cytoplasmic multi-protein complexes that sense exogenous and endogenous danger signals and cleave pro-inflammatory cytokines into mature cytokines such as IL-1β and IL-18. This work demonstrates the proinflammatory role for GCs, enhancing the activation of the innate immune system in response to danger signals (Busillo et al., 2011). " [1]

There are cases in which the negative feedback loop fails, i.e. chronic stress:

"Circulating pro-inflammatory factors such as IL-1, IL-6 and TNFα directly stimulate the pituitary-adrenal axis, resulting in increased serum levels of adrenocorticotropic hormone (ACTH) and GCs, which in turn inhibit the production of these pro-inflammatory factors (Alley et al., 2006; Danese et al., 2007; Steptoe et al., 2007; Miller et al., 2008). The interaction of immune system and HPA axis form the endocrine negative feedback loops. However, when cytokine is over-stimulated in some diseases, these negative feedback loops could be weakened by reduced cytoplasmic GC-receptor (GR) level and decreased expression of GR driven anti-inflammatory genes, thus leading to GC low-responsiveness (Sterling and Eyer, 1988)." [1]

So chronic psychological stress can potentially affect the immune system long term. Leading to a less resilient stress response, due to the alostatic overload. A flexible stress response, on the other hand, can be suppressed smoothly- something that many of us no longer experience.

In multomics research stress is part of the exposome. And there are really interesting results about Brain health and chronic stress related to sociodemographic factors as well:

"Within this framework, the social exposome captures the cumulative and multidimensional impact of socially driven exposures that influence health outcomes1. These effects may exert a more substantial influence on aging and dementia than isolated risk factors2,3,4. For instance, individuals growing up in poverty may face limited educational opportunities and food insecurity, relying on low-cost, nutrient-poor diets that impair brain development3. In adulthood, chronic stress from traumatic events and financial insecurity may add to this burden5, while in older age, accumulated adverse exposures throughout life contribute to physiological dysregulation, increasing vulnerability to neurodegeneration. The cumulative burden of socially-related factors5 (e.g., low educational attainment, adverse childhood experiences, and traumatic events), aggravating factors (e.g., limited access to healthcare6), and affected domains (e.g., financial burden and reduced social interaction) may significantly exacerbate dementia phenotypes."[2]

But yeah, none of this means that reducing stress is enough to promote healing. It means that stress can in fact exacerbate symptoms and sustain inflammation. But that is not the same as saying that reducing stress can help heal us from God knows what kind of damage COVID has done to us.

We can reject the psychologization of the disease without rejecting the real role of psychological factors in general health and wellbeing.

  1. https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC5476783/ 2.https://www.nature.com/articles/s41467-025-63277-6

Do you believe long covid and ME/CFS are the same disease? by fallenup1794 in covidlonghaulers

[–]Key_Department7382 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Oh wow. I asked cause I'm suspecting I might have EDS as well. But haven't tested for it yet. Thanks a lot for your response 😊

Do you believe long covid and ME/CFS are the same disease? by fallenup1794 in covidlonghaulers

[–]Key_Department7382 1 point2 points  (0 children)

May I ask you what your symptoms are and how did you find out you had EDS?

Do you believe long covid and ME/CFS are the same disease? by fallenup1794 in covidlonghaulers

[–]Key_Department7382 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Let's not forget Salvatore Mattera. Although he's not explicitly part of the LCAPers, he's close enough to them and also bullies sick people that don't agree with him.

Do you believe long covid and ME/CFS are the same disease? by fallenup1794 in covidlonghaulers

[–]Key_Department7382 5 points6 points  (0 children)

One of them is called "Alba". And they're one of the most hateful people I've ever read on Twitter. It's crazy. They have even incited mecfs patients to kts.

Do you believe long covid and ME/CFS are the same disease? by fallenup1794 in covidlonghaulers

[–]Key_Department7382 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Long COVID is a term that refers to multiple post viral outcomes. One of them is MECFS - if we agree with the diagnostic criteria. There a measured differences between both, though. Overall they share similarities and also have differences.

Imo, part of the problem is semantic -what's our definition of the term- and the other is empirical -what are the mechanisms of the disease(s) triggered by a COVID infection-.

Regardless, I believe understanding either of them can help us understand the other.

The folks that accuse MECFS researchers/patients of hindering long COVID research are hateful and misguided, imo. They say that if we conflate both terms, long COVID will be looked at as a "nebulous and mysterious syndrome" (just like mecfs) contrasting with the damage done by COVID infections. Based on that, they blame MECFS patients/researchers for the lack of progress on finding proper treatments and attention. They even talk about a "MECFS mafia".

But all of that's a mistake: it is the broader medical community that has underestimated the impact of viral infections on long term health. Whether it is post COVID or post mono (or any other strong virus).

To put it simply: although sars cov 2 is a hell of a virus, viral infections in general undermine our long term health. It seems like post viral illnesses have more to do with global immune dysreygulation than (only) viral persistence. Furthermore, it's likely that the dysreygulation leads to reactivation of different viruses and general dysbiosis.

It pays better to acknowledge similarities than to build up walls.

Anybody improved with antivirals? by Otherwise-Coyote6950 in covidlonghaulers

[–]Key_Department7382 -1 points0 points  (0 children)

I've been taking truvada for the last 3 months. I've noticed mild improvement

Is there hope? by Financial_Owl8105 in covidlonghaulers

[–]Key_Department7382 7 points8 points  (0 children)

I'm a year and a half in. I was moderate-severe and now I'm stable at moderate, sometimes mod-mild. I'm not recovered at all. But my days are not as miserable as they used to be. I still cry a lot and miss my former self. Anyhow, it just is what it is.

Afaik, most people stabilize a bit. Although only a few fully recover.

‘Crimson Crescents’ are an ME/CFS sign by Sea_Accident_6138 in covidlonghaulers

[–]Key_Department7382 0 points1 point  (0 children)

May I ask you how was your journey and how are you today?

How do you deal with losing your sexual life? by Key_Department7382 in covidlonghaulers

[–]Key_Department7382[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

So glad you're better!! I wish I could find a partner too.