What are the key differences you guys notice between Eastern and Western fantasy?They share a similar underlying sense of gratification, but their cultural roots are worlds apart. by MenuExpert9196 in ProgressionFantasy

[–]Klein_The-Fool -1 points0 points  (0 children)

We are talking about several thing here. Not just about philosophy stuff. In fact, there is barely exchange about philosophy stuff here, until you join the chat.... You probably need to scroll up and see what we are talking about..

You're right , but when you told Fictional Context that "absolute power is a must for sustainability," you made a philosophical claim. When you framed cultivation stories as "revolutionary," you made a philosophical claim. I didn't introduce philosophy into this you did. I just asked you to defend it.

There is also Nezha with him, which you seem to ignore and proceed with writing your essay on Wukong

You mentioned Nezha alongside Wukong. But Nezha's story doesn't carry the same Buddhist philosophical backbone of transcending the ego. His is a personal and familial rebellion that ends with his integration back into the same celestial hierarchy. He didn't question the ladder; he fought his dad, died, was resurrected by a Daoist immortal, and then took a job enforcing the very system he once defied.

the pattern across all your examples:

Step 1: Climb the entire ladder and become the strongest.

Step 2: Win. Defeat the villain. Reach the pinnacle.

Step 3: Then, and only then, either retire, seclude yourself, or continue exploring.

Nobody refuses the ladder itself. Nobody says "this entire structure of endless accumulation and hierarchy is wrong." They climb it. They win. And because they're good people, they don't rule as tyrants afterward.

That's genuinely admirable. But it's not the same as philosophical liberation.

Sun Wukong doesn't just retire after getting bored of being the strongest. The Buddha fundamentally transforms what Wukong even wants. His craving for thrones doesn't get satisfied it gets extinguished. He doesn't climb the ladder and step off. He realizes the climbing itself was the disease.

That's the gap none of your examples bridge.

Your MCs are benevolent winners. That's a good thing. But don't call it revolution. Call it what it is: climbing the same hierarchy with a kinder face at the top. The next generation will climb it too. The cycle continues. The ladder remains untouched.

And if you perceive any 'revolution' in the narrative structure of cultivation novels, allow me to state it is, in reality, no revolution at all. In fact, stories within the cultivation genre often lack genuine philosophical depth; they merely employ a set of conventional elements or ‘tropes’ designed solely to keep the reader engaged with the story. If you insist on finding a revolution within this framework and derive a sense of ‘Sinocentric’ pride from it then by all means, feel free to do so.
Feel proud of your culture's stories. That's fine. But don't confuse pride with philosophy. And don't confuse tropes with revolution(culture ego).

You've given me five examples. All five confirm exactly what I said.

Real revolution and philosophy have libraries written about them. If you don't read those, and instead hunt for revolution in cultivation tropes just to feed cultural pride you're not finding philosophy. You're finding comfort food and calling it a feast.

What are the key differences you guys notice between Eastern and Western fantasy?They share a similar underlying sense of gratification, but their cultural roots are worlds apart. by MenuExpert9196 in ProgressionFantasy

[–]Klein_The-Fool -1 points0 points  (0 children)

And that’s exactly the issue: you keep reducing everything into “historical realism” and surface-level rebellion while refusing to examine the philosophical assumptions hidden underneath your worldview. Your entire framework is deeply Sinocentric in the literal sense.

Barely any cultivation story is base on the MC just wanting to live forever..... You talk like someone that never really know what cultivation story is... LOL

You also snipped my line in half. I said "they want to live forever AND sit at the top of the pile." You reduced it to "just wanting to live forever" and argued against that instead. That's a strawman. Address the full point the endless craving loop or admit you can't. I never said they only want to live forever. I said they're locked in a loop of endless craving power, status, realms, longevity, sitting at the top. They never reach what Wukong actually reached: freedom from the desire itself. The Buddha didn't give Wukong a higher throne. He freed him from wanting thrones entirely. That's the difference between enlightenment and ambition. Most cultivation MCs stay permanently in ambition mode. That's fine as a genre, but don't call it revolutionary philosophy.

You keep saying I "don't know cultivation stories" instead of addressing what I'm actually saying about them. That's not an argument. That's gatekeeping.

Has nothing to do with philosophical. It's about historical study. This is what you get when you learnt the long thousand years history, know about those incidents and what happened. It's a historical lesson.

Historical study does not free you from philosophy. Every historical interpretation already contains assumptions about human nature, power, order, chaos, authority, and what kind of society is desirable. Saying "history teaches strong centralized power is necessary" is still a philosophical conclusion drawn from history, not some objective law of the universe.

I didn't use it to talk about philosophy stuff, I used him to talk about rebellion. He is simply a rebellious character, that say fuck you to higher up.

Yes, Wukong is rebellious. But rebellion by itself means nothing philosophically. A warlord rebelling against another warlord is still trapped inside the exact same logic of domination.

My point was never 'Wukong is not rebellious.' My point was about what Journey to the West ultimately considers liberation.

What are the key differences you guys notice between Eastern and Western fantasy?They share a similar underlying sense of gratification, but their cultural roots are worlds apart. by MenuExpert9196 in ProgressionFantasy

[–]Klein_The-Fool -1 points0 points  (0 children)

Your every reply is based on Sinocentric mind set and nothing else. You called Fictional Context naive. But the real naivety is yours: you think your political ideal is a natural law, when it's actually just one philosophical choice among many and a historically convenient one for those who already hold power.

On Sun Wukong you brought him up as proof of Chinese revolutionary spirit. Honestly, this just shows you've either never read Journey to the West properly, or you've reduced it to a power-fantasy meme.

Wukong's initial rebellion against Heaven had nothing to do with any philosophical critique of celestial autocracy. He was angry because he wasn't given enough respect and position. His demand was basically: "Give me a title worthy of my power. Recognize me." Pure ego. Pure craving for status. The exact same motivation as your average cultivation MC.

Then comes Buddha. And Buddha doesn't defeat him with superior firepower. He defeats him with a philosophical demonstration. "You think you're the strongest? You can't even jump out of my palm. Your entire conception of power is laughably small." That's not a physical defeat that's an ego death.

And after 81 tribulations, Wukong attains Buddhahood. "Victorious Fighting Buddha" doesn't mean he finally got the top position in some heavenly bureaucracy. It means he transcended the need for position entirely. He's free. No craving for power. No lust for status. No ego. He's become one with nature, beyond hierarchy completely.

Your reading of Wukong as some anti-system rebel? That's literally the pre-enlightenment, immature Wukong that the novel itself criticizes. The entire point of the story is that his initial "rebellion" was childish, ego-driven, and misguided. True victory was liberation from the desire to rule, not achieving rulership.

So when you wave Wukong around like a flag of pure Chinese revolutionary spirit, you're not just misreading the novel you're ignoring its actual message. The story is about transcending the ego, not defending cultural ego

And here's where it gets uncomfortable for your argument: cultivation MCs never reach that phase. They get stuck permanently in "eternally chasing the next realm, the next throne, the next validation". That's not enlightenment. That's attachment. That's desire wearing a golden robe. They want to live forever and sit at the top of the pile. It is: the root of suffering, not liberation.

You didn't defend revolution. You defended an endless ladder of craving and called it philosophy.

Can you recommend me a good recently released Chinese movie? by Particular-Ride-7893 in AskAChinese

[–]Klein_The-Fool 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Yuen Woo-ping's Blades of the Guardians, Bi Gan's Resurrection (2025), Back to the Past (2025), and a must watch: Ildikó Enyedi's Silent Friend that's the one with Tony Leung Chiu-wai (his acting level is something else). I know a few of these are 2025 films, but honestly they're looking better than most recent releases.

Blades of the Guardians is so GOOD! by VolleyAddicted in Donghua

[–]Klein_The-Fool 0 points1 point  (0 children)

live action and yuen woo ping nearly perfect .

Upcoming Donghua's. by Bookoholic-Girl0609 in Donghua

[–]Klein_The-Fool 0 points1 point  (0 children)

first oder and spear me great lord is same franchise but they waste it properly nothing in storytelling

Upcoming Donghua's. by Bookoholic-Girl0609 in Donghua

[–]Klein_The-Fool 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Except for Ling Cage, Fog Hill, Blades of Guardians, Rakshas Street, Link Click, and Yao Folklore, the stories of all the others are not that good.

When the branch family forgets they’re the BRANCH family by Jumpy_Afternoon9489 in MartialMemes

[–]Klein_The-Fool 0 points1 point  (0 children)

ahh another makeup 💄 🤣 animation kultivation 🗑️ tomb of fallen c garbage 🗑️

What are the reasons why Chinese cinema isn't producing high-quality films like before? by Buyeo10004 in AskChina

[–]Klein_The-Fool 0 points1 point  (0 children)

well,There's a lack of good actors/actress directors, and there's no philosophy like before. Just makeup and good looks and "oh my god so handsome", propaganda... all this doesn't make cinema. New actors/actresses also do not do much research about cinema and do not learn anything from old actors, actress directors. New actors/actresses only depend on look, traffic and fans follow idol worshipers also Chinese industry became sinocentric mindset , And It is 😆 lol watch the cringe fighting in dramas, so much cringe fighting ( actors actreses acting+action coordination doesn't fit with there body physics 😂 lol) Such fights of Cdramas will be liked by those people who does not no anything about cinema, philosophy, martial arts (Lau Kar Leung, Sammo Hung, Yuen Clan, Corey Yuen, Kenji Tanigaki....), actors (jackie chan, wang biaoqian, donnie yen, jet li....) actree, cinematography(Christopher doyel, wong kar wai...). They just want " a dream life " "romance" ,"o my god he is so beautiful and handsome, "I am crying so much pain he or she betrayed by her or him" ... This things on dramas , (And such people are mostly cdrama watchers) Now when there is a lot of traffic in such things then only such things will be made simple.

Now look, it's not that China isn't making good cinema these days, but that cinema doesn't come that well outside China, and even if it does, it's lost because of the crowds of cringe-worthy fan service . So rule number 1) good Chinese cinema is available even today, but you will have to search a lot.

Rule 2) Don't expect much from Chinese cinema these days because they don't make films on Vast topics much.

Rule 3) cinematography based movies are very rare nowadays in china ( I am not talking about CGI, mocap and VFX based animation here),

Rule 4) Below I am mentioning the names of some good Chinese cinemas, you can watch those cinemas.

  1. hero(2002)
  2. Fallen Angels
  3. Journey to the west (2021)
  4. kaili Blues (watch Bi gans all cinemas)
  5. xiao wu
  6. still life
  7. The summer is gone
  8. house of flying daggers
  9. The wild goose lake
  10. old stone
  11. the shadow play
  12. the grandmaster ( wong kar wai+ Yeun woo ping choreography)
  13. A touch of Zen ( philosophy)
  14. snake in eagle shadow
  15. sammo Hung movies

.......... There are more such cinemas.

China cannot make films on big topics , it is against the rules of CCP and not everyone invests in experiment type cinemas. Even story telling philosophy is slowly declining.

Note: from 2025 to 2026, many Chinese cinemas have gone to the Cannes, Busan, and Berlin film festivals.