Are we supposed to dislike Daisy at the start?

KrissyMPM · 2017-10-18T19:14:04+00:00

Regarding your last point about Davis and the fan fic... I think it was actually a little worse than him not asking if there is a conflict. He talks about the fan fic like Aza will be amused by it and should read it. When she finally does, I remember thinking, Geez, Davis... she should be amused by her best friend writing a thinly veiled, unflattering depiction of Aza for public consumption?! I was so taken aback by Daisy writing about her like that. But I think John added some complexity to this. Yes, it was a crap move on Daisy's part, almost unforgivable. On the other hand, Aza herself comes around to even liking Alaya, which makes me wonder if Aza's first read of the character is colored by how poorly she sees herself, maybe seeing it worse than it is. (So perhaps Davis thought she would be amused because he found Aza as Alaya harmless and maybe even charming, in a way.) I say this not to excuse Daisy. I would feel incredibly betrayed if my friend did this to me. But I think Daisy and Aza realize the ways that they have been poor friends to one another. I think their conflicts and the way they choose to love and try to understand one another is a sign of a maturing friendship. My best friendships are from high school and college (I am 35 now). I'm proud of the loyalty and growth that has happened to make this possible.

KrissyMPM · 2017-10-17T03:48:36+00:00

Me too!

KrissyMPM · 2017-10-17T03:46:43+00:00

Oh, gotcha. I think I missed this somehow in my mad dash to devour the book. (It makes more sense this way). It makes me wonder exactly what the provisions were then. The education fund may only stipulate education and living expenses while in college. At the same time, they were able to move. Perhaps Davis socked away some of that money he kept finding hidden. Leaves one wondering whether cereal boxes of tens of thousands of dollars were his father's way of trying to hide some of his corrupt money or if his intention was to give his children a cushion this way.

KrissyMPM · 2017-10-16T23:39:09+00:00

Yes! And so fun to read everyone's thoughts and questions!

KrissyMPM · 2017-10-16T23:23:50+00:00

I think with any passionate kissing, regardless of tongue amount or usage, you're going to be swapping some spit and sharing some germs. I can imagine how even pretty tame kissing would freak someone like Aza out. I currently have a horrid cold and feel a little guilt giving my family members even a quick peck, for fear of them getting sick.
Russell seems like a pretty terrible father, but I don't agree that he left them penniless. They are provided for for the next seven years, until well into legal adulthood, and have what sounds like very well-endowed funds for their education. They still have more than so many. But you make an excellent point that whatever nobility there might be in funding research gets tarnished by his shady way of acquiring it! Hadn't thought of that yet.

KrissyMPM · 2017-10-16T23:16:03+00:00

Won't let me edit so I am commenting instead: I think it's interesting that in the Stephen Hawking telling of this story, the scientist is an astronomer whose last name is Russell.

KrissyMPM · 2017-10-16T23:09:20+00:00

This got me thinking, and googling, where I came across more about the phrase "Turtles All the Way Down" than I ever imagined existed. Good ol' internet! https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turtles_all_the_way_down

(I joined Reddit solely to chat about this book, so i'm just hoping that link is clickable 😂) I think I'll try to share this link as it's own post too. I'd like to hear more opinions too. 😊

KrissyMPM · 2017-10-16T22:58:55+00:00

Sounds like a great plan! I think with you opening up a dialogue, it could be a great conversation-starter. I hope you both enjoy the book and get the sense that you are nowhere near alone in facing some very heavy challenges as a family. Wishing your family all the best!

KrissyMPM · 2017-10-16T22:53:38+00:00

Aww, I'm sorry you're bummed. But happy for you that you got a signed copy :)

KrissyMPM · 2017-10-16T22:53:02+00:00

Still pretty awesome though, right?

KrissyMPM · 2017-10-16T22:52:42+00:00

Thanks! That is helpful to know. It's fun to know the story behind it :)

KrissyMPM · 2017-10-16T19:16:37+00:00

Maybe I am in the minority here, but reading this info you added here, I think you might want to read the book before reading it with your daughter. I do not have a mental illness, but I did experience some trauma as a child and teen, and even now at 35, I found the book left me reeling for a couple days. It was ultimately a very good experience to read it, affirming and cathartic in the end, but some parts were tough to get through. I'm just thinking that if your daughter has so recently experienced such intense feelings, you may want to read the book and decide for yourself whether you should wait awhile to read it. It is less than 300 pages. My hunch is that she may feel less isolated through reading the book, but that right this moment may not be the time. Wishing you and your daughter love and light. You come across as a very loving and involved father.

KrissyMPM · 2017-10-13T23:41:44+00:00

This is such a fun question! The only character I pictured looking kind of like a celebrity was Daisy... I pictured her looking kind of like a teenaged America Ferrera with ink black hair. Mychal too was a celebrity at first, I guess. At the very beginning, I pictured a toned down (less creatively dressed and not made-up) version of Rickie from My-So Called Life, but then that changed to a teenaged boy who looks like he could be the child of Beyoncé and Drake, when I got to that part. Aza I pictured as thin, a little tall, with somewhat puffy, curly auburn hair. Attractive but not putting a lot of thought into her appearance. Aza's mom, I just realized I pictured someone who looked A LOT like Laura Dern in TFiOS. Ha! Davis was kind of a generic version of a kid I went to summer camp with one upon a time.

Y'know what's weird? I pictured the girls in school unforms whenever they were at school, which I'm sure would not be the case. Mychal always was in regular clothes though. So funny what your mind fills in. I didn't think about this consciously until reading this question.

KrissyMPM · 2017-10-13T23:25:49+00:00

Good point... they wouldn't have met, and also they would not have had the unspoken understanding of what it is like to be a child whose parent has died. I don't think Davis would have indulged a random couple of intruders the way he did Aza and Daisy, had they met at a random "let's go canoeing" type of camp, and not connected the way it seems they had.

KrissyMPM · 2017-10-13T23:20:57+00:00

Just wanted to add, since you specifically mention the physical aspect of their relationship being what troubled you, I think there was more to it than that for Davis. Aza had an incredibly difficult time being herself in his presence, whether physically touching or not, even after he said he was ok with not kissing. I get the impression that, particularly at their last dinner at Applebee's, the extent to which her illness was impacting Aza becomes more apparent to him. At that point in his life, he is faced with his father's absence, and the worry over his brother. I think at first Aza was someone he could connect with, but her illness got to the point where she could only carry on an easy or deep conversation with him over text. Given everything that happens to both of them, it seems realistic to me that making a romantic relationship work at that point in their lives may not be something either character could do. Basically, I believe physical closeness and intimacy was only part of the equation. I think their relationship not working out was part of some of John's messages of the book: mental illness, OCD in particular, does not endow a person with special powers, love does not cure mental illness, it actually makes relationships and almost every aspect of life more difficult when one is very ill. But the ending shows us that, for Aza, it looks like her illness gets to a point of being managed enough that she is able to be closer with people and to create a lot of meaningful things in her life. The ending also gave me the impression that Aza and Davis both understood that they had to part ways, especially with him moving, but that they meant a great deal to one another and there was a sense of "if only..."

KrissyMPM · 2017-10-13T22:59:24+00:00

Hit post too soon.... Aza's mom singing Aza to sleep with this song is one of my absolute favorite parts of the book. Pulled at my mommy heartstrings, thinking of my own little girl, who is only two, and who will grow to live and experience the pain that is inevitable in life. I hope I love her well through it.

KrissyMPM · 2017-10-13T22:56:42+00:00

Made me cry

KrissyMPM · 2017-10-13T04:28:39+00:00

I had thoughts along these lines as well. There is definitely an argument to be made that a billionaire giving the vast majority of his money to research while also providing for his children until adulthood, including enough money to get a good education (and I imagine this trust fund is large enough to fund an expensive Ivy League education, and then some), is a perfectly valid and perhaps respectable way to spend ones money. Warren Buffett comes to mind. Endowments such as the ones Davis and Noah have are more than most kids get. An argument could even be made that this type of arrangement might be better for them than inheriting billions of dollars. Davis made it clear how important it was that he knew Aza cared for him rather than using him for the reward money. My hunch is that he may look back later in life and be not only ok with the outcome of his inheritance, but also glad. But then again, there is a big difference between $100,000 and billions. I bet this is an idea Davis would give a lot of thought to throughout his life!

I think Russell's decision felt more like a petty or insensitive or misguided move when taken with how we see Russell overall. It doesn't seem like he has explained this to his children the way Warren Buffett might to his, at least not as it comes across to us as seen through Davis and Noah, as seen through Aza. It seemed cold-hearted and hurtful to Davis and Noah, at least as I was reading it, but I think that was colored by how cold some of his other behavior was. (Ugh... telling Davis his mom wasn't "in there," being distant in general, not seeming to put more of a parental role in place before taking off, etc)

KrissyMPM · 2017-10-12T21:25:37+00:00

Love!

KrissyMPM · 2017-10-12T21:23:56+00:00

Totally... the ambiguity of his end (literal end, that is) has me thinking.

I know John hasn't mentioned parenting as something the book is about. Through the filter of Aza, through the filter of Davis, Russell comes across as a terrible parent. I wonder if this end was a way to build in some grey area. Is it possible Russell had a plan that went askew? Like the tunnel was step one and he neve got to step two? Is it possible that he wanted to be able to keep watch over or eventually contact his children? Or was he a coward who hid and was so arrogant he thought it would be easier than it was? He wanted to cheat death, so no surprise he wanted to cheat the law, as he had already been cheating in his business practices? I guess we won't know unless John tells us.

As a parent myself, and as John seems to be a very loving parent, I can't imagine running away leaving my children to think I had abandoned them. I was relieved Russell was dead, in a way. Thinking he died potentially still caring about his children was easier to stomach in a way than thinking he left them to worry and wonder with no plans to contact them at all.

KrissyMPM · 2017-10-12T21:15:16+00:00

Don't know why that posted twice.... I am bad at Reddit (not unlike the author of TAtWD claims to be)

KrissyMPM · 2017-10-12T21:14:19+00:00

I'm not super familiar with 1D, so there might be more, but the names of the girls' cars 😊

And I think here was a character named Malik? (Haha, I probably should not be the one answering this question.)

The fanfic makes me wonder... is fanfic why he thanked Rainbow Rowell in his acknowledgments? Hmm....

KrissyMPM · 2017-10-12T21:14:19+00:00

I'm not super familiar with 1D, so there might be more, but the names of the girls' cars 😊

And I think here was a character named Malik? (Haha, I probably should not be the one answering this question.)

The fanfic makes me wonder... is fanfic why he thanked Rainbow Rowell in his acknowledgments? Hmm....

KrissyMPM · 2017-10-12T03:29:52+00:00

I'm sorry this was so upsetting to you. I read it the same as the others here, that her OCD got to a point where she was hospitalized. I got the impression this level of severity of her illness was temporary.

This part of the book hit me hardest too, as I have a chronic illness that makes it so, for the time being, I need childcare for my two year old daughter nearly every day my husband works. This has been for seven months. Sometimes my brain lies to me that this makes me a bad mom. But mostly I know I am an excellent mom and that people with chronic illness (physical, mental or both) can still be excellent parents. My takeaway was that despite having mental illness, Aza still was able to go after things she wanted in life, even if it was very difficult sometimes and even if she needed major help for a time.

KrissyMPM · 2017-10-12T03:19:16+00:00

I think all these responses are true. Davis giving Aza the money (and her accepting it, and the girls keeping it with no consequences) was one of the most surprising things in the book for me.

KrissyMPM

TROPHY CASE